152 réponses à ce sujet

[Athayniel]

Siansonea II wrote...

Shepard's death in ME2 "broke my immersion" (to borrow a hackneyed phrase from every whiner who ever lived) more than anything. I mean, did BioWare think that we would just ignore the scientific and emotional implications of the event? Yes, they did, apparently. They wanted Shepard to have a new skill tree, and to be able to change class! And to have a two-year time jump. Could have done the same thing with a coma, but nooooooo...

Imagine if you will that the Collectors attack the Normandy with the expressed purpose of taking the crew alive and part of the attack is a torpedo filled with seeker swarms. Their initial energy cannon barrage which is meant to cripple the Alliance frigate and keep it from escaping instead causes a chain reaction in the larger-than-usual-for-a-ship-her-size eezo drive core which eventually rips the ship apart.

The swarm torpedo is fired too late to get most of the crew before they escape in pods and only tags Shepard because of Joker being such a twit. The final explosion of the Tantalus drive sends Shepard, trapped in the swarm field, into the vacuum of space, where asphyxiation is inevitable since the field isn't impermeable and the victim retains consciousness after all. However, the field is self-sustaining and the nano-bots injected into Shepard's body keeps him/her 'alive', and protects him/her during re-entry through the planet's atmosphere. The stasis shield lands in the frozen tundra and completely freezes over and it takes two years for the Shadowbroker's people to even find it before Liara and Feron steal it and hand it over to Cerberus because they are the only ones who know enough about the Collectors to be able to thaw out and then disable the stasis coccoon.

In the meantime, Shepard has been technically dead, kept 'alive' only by the residual energy in the nano-machines, muscles, bones and nerve tissue degrading as the tiny robots consume them to replenish their own energy reserves. Cerberus must rebuild Shepard's body before awakening him/her.

Would that get you level/class reset while not suspending disbelief on the whole death thing?

[Cutlass Jack]

111987 wrote...
Well I think adding 'therapy' sessions to the game wouldn't have made it any more enjoyable...

I'm not sure I'd go that far. Kelly was the ship's therapist after all. And her 'sessions' looked pretty enjoyable.

[TK514]

I'm in the "What did you expect?" camp. He went unconscious and woke up in the hospital. End of story. It's not like the dragged him all unwilling and traumatic back from some paradise great beyond. He just woke up.

As for everyone else except Liara, he was just MIA. Some people were -told- he'd been dead, but obviously those reports were exaggerated since he's clearly not, and there were rumors ahead of time he was out and about.

[AlexXIV]

Athayniel wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Considering Shep's the first who ever came back from the dead the reaction of all people is rather odd. As if it is nothing new. That's because it doesn't work. If you did it properly the game would be all about it, and not about the Collectors. Hey we found a way to cheat death! Anyone interested? No? Ok ...

I think in that case it's more that they don't believe Shepard died. The Council and the Systems Alliance intel guys want Shepard to explain where (s)he's been and what (s)he's been doing the last two years. Of the original Normandy crew, only Liara ever sees Shepard's body. She's the only one who ever truly experiences Shepard's death as a real event.

When TIM leaks that Shepard is working for Cerberus he never says for how long or gives any indications as to how it came about. I'm pretty sure "We brought Shepard back from the dead recently, isn't that just great?" wasn't part of his info leak strategy.

Unless I'm mistaken Shep's been gone for 2 years. In the news constantly Shep and his death is mentioned. But the topic never comes up in conversations and if then Shep's like 'I got better'. It feels to me like the writers didn't want to be bothered with the whole fact at all. Like they want to say well he was never really dead. But he was. And especially nobody really wonders how they did it. I mean, Cerberus are the first and only ones who brought a deader back to live and nobody is even surprised by the fact.

I stick with my original stance, it is a bad idea to implement in any game unless you want to make it a center focus of the story. I mean Jesus supposedly died and returned and we talk about it 2000 years later, there is even a church based on the fact. It's not something you just shrug off. So if writers can't handle it properly then they should just not try. I know game writers are no novel writers or anything, if they were good enough they would write their own books. But if you can't do it as writer you should at least know and not try and by trying ridicule an otherwise great game.

[FoxHound109]

Siansonea II wrote...

Shepard's death in ME2 "broke my immersion" (to borrow a hackneyed phrase from every whiner who ever lived) more than anything. I mean, did BioWare think that we would just ignore the scientific and emotional implications of the event? Yes, they did, apparently. They wanted Shepard to have a new skill tree, and to be able to change class! And to have a two-year time jump. Could have done the same thing with a coma, but nooooooo...

Exactly.

And for the record, I don't mean he should have changed from experiencing some sort of after life. I just imagine that those last few seconds when he was spaced a lot of things must have crossed his mind as he realized he was likely going to die. Family, friends, his crew, things about life he didn't notice before, his past mistakes, etc. All of this gets ignored. Painfully so. I also don't accept the idea that he simply came back, put on his armor, and pretended like it was all good and a bag of chips. He should have at least felt disoriented. I understand he's a soldier, but he's also human, and the whole point of science-fiction is to see how human characters can retain their humanity in such radical settings. I feel like Shepard didn't retain his humanity at all in this case. 

I mean, yeah, you could definitely alter his personality and do things like take more renegade options if you were previously pure paragon, but even if I REMAINED pure paragon through both games the writers should have made some sort of distinction. He doesn't change at all, personality wise, he barely even mentions his own death, and furthermore he doesn't even display any signs of trying to cope with it. Hell, Kelly Chambers is a psychologist hired to help the crew in the suicide mission but you sure as hell never see her giving Shepard advice on how to cope or giving him therapy, even if you fully interact with her. The most help she'll be to Shepard is to tell him/her that he/she has new messages at his/her private terminal.

=|

[Ygolnac]

Well, my shepard had drastical change after her death.

First, she decided to accept cerberus help after what they have made in me1

Second she became full renegade from renegon.

In a game where you can choose your character behaviour and feelings it's up to you to decide how the mentioned character reacts to what happened to him/her

[JamieCOTC]

FoxHound109 wrote...

 I know, I know! This has probably been discussed to death, but Shepard's death in Mass Effect 2 bothers me immensely. It's not that he shouldn't have died, and it's not even how ridiculously bad his old team mates react to his return (they're almost all along the lines of: "Oh. It's you. Hi."). What really bothers me is something else: Shepard himself. He dies, is brought back to life after two years, and he hasn't even remotely shown any psychological change. You would think death could alter a person's psychological state immensely, but Shepard almost never mentions it, never needs any sort of therapy, and never seems to be moved by what happened to him. 

Anyone else bothered by this? I feel like it's the one thing that completely and totally shatters the suspension of disbelief for me in Mass Effect 2. Don't get me wrong, the game has its plot holes, but THIS is what bothers me more than anything.

Play femshep and romance Jacob.  She vents about being *gone* very briefly. 

But yeah, I hated the death plot.  Shep's death is handled in true comicbook fashion. 

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 03 octobre 2011 - 05:28 .

[rapscallioness]

Athayniel wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Considering Shep's the first who ever came back from the dead the reaction of all people is rather odd. As if it is nothing new. That's because it doesn't work. If you did it properly the game would be all about it, and not about the Collectors. Hey we found a way to cheat death! Anyone interested? No? Ok ...

I think in that case it's more that they don't believe Shepard died. The Council and the Systems Alliance intel guys want Shepard to explain where (s)he's been and what (s)he's been doing the last two years. Of the original Normandy crew, only Liara ever sees Shepard's body. She's the only one who ever truly experiences Shepard's death as a real event.

When TIM leaks that Shepard is working for Cerberus he never says for how long or gives any indications as to how it came about. I'm pretty sure "We brought Shepard back from the dead recently, isn't that just great?" wasn't part of his info leak strategy.

You know whhat, you're right. I was just about to post something about how the blase reaction to Shep.'s return was odd. But then I read this and thought, Of Course.

They all prolly think Shep has been on some covert mission all this time. Cuz that Shepard is a wild and crazy guy.

It makes me feel a lil sorry for Shepard, tho. Becasue it seems as tho Shepard doesn't have anyone to talk to about it even if he did want to talk. Not someone he trusts and has that kinda relation with.

A scene w/ Anderson woulda been great.

As far as Shepard's reaction. That was still odd. Violent deaths, or even violent near deaths are very traumatic.  Even Kelly got to do a Thane flashback thing...but Shepard? No. Not even once.

I was willing to go along with the magic science resurrected Shepard. I was like, okay, yeah sure. But the lack of acknowledging it even by Shepard was.......

Aria had the best reaction to me. When she said that could be anybody, or anything w/ Shepard's face on it.

[Juha81FIN]

One thing that bothers me even more than this is the fact that Shepard doesn't even look in the time and events between his death and resurrection and you only get vague discriptions from here and there, instead he/she is coddled with multiple missions as if those two years didn't matter.

[Sgt Stryker]

Let's see if we can get this thread up to 250+ pages too!

Getting back to the topic at hand, I still firmly believe that Shepard's death was unnecessary and handled improperly. They could have easily gotten away with Shepard suffering serious injury/coma, and would have ended up with a stronger story. At the same time, the gameplay reset and marketing concerns could have easily been woven into such a scenario.

[KOS-MOS56]

FoxHound109 wrote...

You would think death could alter a person's psychological state immensely, but Shepard almost never mentions it, never needs any sort of therapy, and never seems to be moved by what happened to him. 

No.....My Shepard isn't a p*ssy.

Modifié par KOS-MOS56, 03 octobre 2011 - 05:43 .

[rapscallioness]

KOS-MOS56 wrote...

FoxHound109 wrote...

You would think death could alter a person's psychological state immensely, but Shepard almost never mentions it, never needs any sort of therapy, and never seems to be moved by what happened to him. 

No.....My Shepard isn't a p*ssy.

Okay, and that's the problem right there. This idea that men in particular, and heros, can't be affected by the madness that life can and will throw at them. That showing their humanity = p*ssy.

When Hercules was possessed by Hera and compelled to slaughter his wife and children, he was devasted. He was in anguish! It was made a point to share this inner struggle w/ the audience so they could relate to his pain and search for redemption.

And they did. They didn't sit there and think, "Ahh, what a p*ssy."

If Hercules, the supreme stereotype of manly man and demigod, can show his pain in a story w/out being considered a p*ssy, then I think Shepard can, too

[AlexXIV]

rapscallioness wrote...

KOS-MOS56 wrote...

FoxHound109 wrote...

You would think death could alter a person's psychological state immensely, but Shepard almost never mentions it, never needs any sort of therapy, and never seems to be moved by what happened to him. 

No.....My Shepard isn't a p*ssy.

Okay, and that's the problem right there. This idea that men in particular, and heros, can't be affected by the madness that life can and will throw at them. That showing their humanity = p*ssy.

When Hercules was possessed by Hera and compelled to slaughter his wife and children, he was devasted. He was in anguish! It was made a point to share this inner struggle w/ the audience so they could relate to his pain and search for redemption.

And they did. They didn't sit there and think, "Ahh, what a p*ssy."

If Hercules, the supreme stereotype of manly man and demigod, can show his pain in a story w/out being considered a p*ssy, then I think Shepard can, too

You're in the internet. Every guy here has a huge penis and no emotion.

[Almostfaceman]

Yeah he died in ME2. So... why are you bringing this up in the ME3 forum?

[AlexXIV]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Yeah he died in ME2. So... why are you bringing this up in the ME3 forum?

Because Shep still has nightmares of it in ME3.

[Athayniel]

Future Guy wrote...

Athayniel wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
Shepard's death in ME2 "broke my immersion" (to borrow a hackneyed phrase from every whiner who ever lived) more than anything. I mean, did BioWare think that we would just ignore the scientific and emotional implications of the event? Yes, they did, apparently. They wanted Shepard to have a new skill tree, and to be able to change class! And to have a two-year time jump. Could have done the same thing with a coma, but nooooooo...

*snip scenario*

Would that get you level/class reset while not suspending disbelief on the whole death thing?

They didn't need to pass off a game mechanic as story to begin with, if that was the reason, which I suspect it was.  Perhaps also a good marketing gimmick to drive up pre-orders as well.

Prior to ME2 release: 

Bioware:  You'll get to reset Shepard's class and appearance at the beginning of ME2.
Gamer:  Ok, sounds good to me.

Problem solved. 

Instead, Shepard gets killed and disappears for a couple of years.  Yet it's treated as no big deal. Like I'm gonna give a damn about Ash/Kaiden questioning my "loyalties" on Horizon.    Like I'm going to give a damn about Liara questioning me about my "infidelities".  Loyalty and infedelity are trivialized, now. 

Bioware wants to have it both ways, but they can't.  Passing off game mechanics for story makes for bad role playing.  Cheating comes into play in ME3?  Pfft, I could care less from a role playing perspective.  Being dead and resurrected is suppose to be a big deal, but it's not.  They invented immortality.  No biggie.

Something like that might work with the players who come to ME from a predominantly shooter based background. It would not work for the players who come to BioWare games from the RPG perspective. Resetting level/class without a reason grounded in story will take those players out of the story. Just look at Siansonea's reaction because the reason given was one she did not find credible at all. I agree with her, this could have and should have been done without the 'death'.

[DieDjae]

Shepard simply has extraordinairy mental strength, his return from the dead was a gift and he's not gonna waste time to look it in the mouth, he's just gonna do with it what he can to stop the reapers.

[Xilizhra]

I think Cerberus erased Shepard's memory of her actual death; the last thing she remembers, apparently, is the Normandy's explosion itself, and the experience of asphyxiating and falling into Alchera's atmosphere is gone. And death itself was no experience at all. So physiologically speaking, it was just a long blackout for Shepard. Of course, knowing that you died and were resurrected could have greater psychological impact, but that's up to the player.

[Alexius]

Oh, c'mon, it's science fiction. If I wanted more "earthly" reasons for bringing someone back from the dead I'd go watch House MD. Don't get me wrong, I agree that perhaps a "wow, I died" dialogue was missing, but for some reason I keep thinking that it'd have been more traumatic for his/her squadmates than for Shepard (and that was covered just fine). After all, to him/her it was a blackout during attack and a harsh waking up.

Future Guy wrote...

Passing off game mechanics for story makes for bad role playing.

Passing off game mechanics for story is done all the time in tabletop rpg, from justifying your class with a backstory to the specific quests that explain why you gained certain abilities.

[Siansonea]

Future Guy wrote...

Athayniel wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
Shepard's death in ME2 "broke my immersion" (to borrow a hackneyed phrase from every whiner who ever lived) more than anything. I mean, did BioWare think that we would just ignore the scientific and emotional implications of the event? Yes, they did, apparently. They wanted Shepard to have a new skill tree, and to be able to change class! And to have a two-year time jump. Could have done the same thing with a coma, but nooooooo...

*snip scenario*

Would that get you level/class reset while not suspending disbelief on the whole death thing?

They didn't need to pass off a game mechanic as story to begin with, if that was the reason, which I suspect it was.  Perhaps also a good marketing gimmick to drive up pre-orders as well.

Prior to ME2 release: 

Bioware:  You'll get to reset Shepard's class and appearance at the beginning of ME2.
Gamer:  Ok, sounds good to me.

Problem solved. 

Instead, Shepard gets killed and disappears for a couple of years.  Yet it's treated as no big deal. Like I'm gonna give a damn about Ash/Kaiden questioning my "loyalties" on Horizon.    Like I'm going to give a damn about Liara questioning me about my "infidelities".  Loyalty and infedelity are trivialized, now. 

Bioware wants to have it both ways, but they can't.  Passing off game mechanics for story makes for bad role playing.  Cheating comes into play in ME3?  Pfft, I could care less from a role playing perspective.  Being dead and resurrected is suppose to be a big deal, but it's not.  They invented immortality.  No biggie.

Ezzactly. 

The leveling system is an abstraction anyway. So yeah, there was no need to address it from a story standpoint, that was just silly and transparent. Anything that has to do with game mechanics DOES NOT NEED TO BE EXPLAINED WITHIN THE STORY. I mean, look at thermal clips. We roll our eyes when we run into them on Aeia, but whatever. It's part of the game mechanics, we get it, and we move on. But don't create this giant story point just to justify a change in the way the game is played. THAT sort of thing SHOULD be handwaved. You handwave game mechanics for the sake of preserving continuity in the story, you do NOT handwave the story for the sake of preserving continuity in the game mechanics. 

[Siansonea]

AlexiusDAlex wrote...

Oh, c'mon, it's science fiction. If I wanted more "earthly" reasons for bringing someone back from the dead I'd go watch House MD. Don't get me wrong, I agree that perhaps a "wow, I died" dialogue was missing, but for some reason I keep thinking that it'd have been more traumatic for his/her squadmates than for Shepard (and that was covered just fine). After all, to him/her it was a blackout during attack and a harsh waking up.

Future Guy wrote...

Passing off game mechanics for story makes for bad role playing.

Passing off game mechanics for story is done all the time in tabletop rpg, from justifying your class with a backstory to the specific quests that explain why you gained certain abilities.

Not really the same thing. Although D&D is kind of doing this with settings like Forgotten Realms since they introduced 4th Edition. The whole Spellplague storyline, the time jump to 100 years later, as well as all of the geographical changes in the campaign world Faerûn, are to explain the discontuity between the mechanics of 3.5 Edition and 4th Edition. I'd say it works better in Forgotten Realms than it does with Mass Effect, because Forgotten Realms has, you know, MAGIC, which is the ultimate hand-wave extraordinaire. 

It sounds like you're talking about creating a backstory to fit your character sheet. That's just storytelling. And you still have to work within the rules of the game system and the campaign world. 

Modifié par Siansonea II, 03 octobre 2011 - 06:23 .

[Obsidian Gryphon]

*shrug* I guess Cerberus scrubbed the memory of death from Shep's mind.  Probably recalled saving Joker and the next, waking up in the lab. Hence, no nightmares of suffocation, etc. That or Shep's deliberately / subconsciously suppressing those unpleasant memories.

... I don't wanna dwell on those. I've an important task to accomplish! ...

Modifié par Obsidian Gryphon, 03 octobre 2011 - 06:25 .

[AlexXIV]

AlexiusDAlex wrote...

Oh, c'mon, it's science fiction. If I wanted more "earthly" reasons for bringing someone back from the dead I'd go watch House MD. Don't get me wrong, I agree that perhaps a "wow, I died" dialogue was missing, but for some reason I keep thinking that it'd have been more traumatic for his/her squadmates than for Shepard (and that was covered just fine). After all, to him/her it was a blackout during attack and a harsh waking up.

Future Guy wrote...

Passing off game mechanics for story makes for bad role playing.

Passing off game mechanics for story is done all the time in tabletop rpg, from justifying your class with a backstory to the specific quests that explain why you gained certain abilities.

Sci-fi have taken on some very nasty habits. Two of them being time machines and reviving dead people. If you bring these things in nothing else matters anymore. You can solve any problem by travelling back in time and/or bringing people back to life. The essence of drama is always that some things are final, unchangeable, irreversable. If you strip these elements from any story, the story itself becomes irrelevant.

[FoxHound109]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Yeah he died in ME2. So... why are you bringing this up in the ME3 forum?

Because there's still a chance to rectify it in Mass Effect 3. Especially with Vega being the narrative truck dump for the new players. Somewhat late, but the writers could rectify this by having Vega ask about it and Shepard show his humanity for once.