152 réponses à ce sujet

[tonnactus]

Cutlass Jack wrote...


The thing you're missing is that ME is an RPG, and Deus Ex is not really. You don't really get control of Jensen's personality.

Did you even played Deus Ex 3???

[FoxHound109]

Future Guy wrote...
 
They did far more damage killing Shepard off.  It's not so much that it wasn't a credible reason, although there isn't one.  It's the magnitude of it, and how it was treated after the fact.  It trivializes so many things now.

Bingo!

[Iakus]

SpiffySquee wrote...

All depends on how you look at it. After all, as far as Shep is concerned he fell unconscious and just woke up 2 years later. I wonder, if there is no "follow the light" or talk with some mystical being or what not, would it really change anyone?

That's not what's needed (though to this day I think it would have been cool to have Shep chatting with a "maybe a ghost, maybe a hallucination" of Saren about his work not being done yet could have been cool)  What's needed was the option for some introspection.  

Let me ask a question in return. We know Shep deals with near death all the time. If he was hurt and woke up in a hospital and they told him he almost died and been out for a while would it really change him that much? Because from Shepard's point of view, that's all that happened. He fell asleep and woke up 2 years later. Sure, it would be a little jarring, but I don't think it would be as personality shaking as many people make it out to be.

Yes, it could potentially change Shepard.  In part because he died.  Also in part, because, as you said, two years have just zipped by.  Everyone he knows and loves thinks he's dead.  He has no home.  No identity, no job, and the only people talking to him are terrorists who put the Enkindlers-knows what kind of cybernetics in him.  

It's fine if some people want to play Shepard as a stoic bad**** action hero who "shoots first, shoots last, shoots some more, then when eveyone's dead, ask a question or two"  But some  (like me) liked playing Shepard as a human being.  Someone who's going to have a reaction when he'/she finds out two years have gone by literally in the blink of an eye.  The galaxy at large thinks you're dead, and until recently, they were right.

Even Adam Jensen, who's as grim as any action hero, can make a couple of comments about his humanity after being heavily augmented, given the proper dialogue options.

Edit:  And here's joping ME3 will rectify some of this by allowing Shepard to talk about it this time around. With the VS.  With Vega.  Heck, with Joker, even.  Remember what one of the  more popular features about LOTSB proved to be Liara asking Shepard "How do you feel?"

Modifié par iakus, 03 octobre 2011 - 07:21 .

[KOS-MOS56]

rapscallioness wrote...

KOS-MOS56 wrote...

FoxHound109 wrote...

You would think death could alter a person's psychological state immensely, but Shepard almost never mentions it, never needs any sort of therapy, and never seems to be moved by what happened to him. 

No.....My Shepard isn't a p*ssy.

Okay, and that's the problem right there. This idea that men in particular, and heros, can't be affected by the madness that life can and will throw at them. That showing their humanity = p*ssy.

When Hercules was possessed by Hera and compelled to slaughter his wife and children, he was devasted. He was in anguish! It was made a point to share this inner struggle w/ the audience so they could relate to his pain and search for redemption.

And they did. They didn't sit there and think, "Ahh, what a p*ssy."

If Hercules, the supreme stereotype of manly man and demigod, can show his pain in a story w/out being considered a p*ssy, then I think Shepard can, too

1. Pretty sure Shepard didn't slaughter his family, so I'm not sure why you think he should carry a burden of doubt and guilt.

2. If you save the council, you are interviewed by Shepard's favorite punching bag on the Citadel. During the interview Shepard goes into a bit of detail about the decision he made and feeling guilt over the deaths of human servicemen on those Alliance Vessels, also makes a toast with Chakwas to the dead from the past (optional), as well as other places if you look for them.

3. I would imagine that dieing and waking up 2 years later would be similar to waking up from a coma from some sort of trauma... which can result in very little memory of the actual catastophic event. Surprise is the usual emotion involved during waking as well as a mixuture of others depending on other circumstances.

4. Hercules may be your "Supreme Sterotype of Man" but he sure as hell isn't mine.

5. Shepard has a job to do, sitting around being depressed isn't going to save any lives. He is a soldier, a leader, someone that can bare the burden of command and all that comes with it. If you are looking for a more teenage angst / depressed / emo character might I suggest a JRPG as those stories, while good in thier own right, seem to express those emotions in a more overt nature.

Modifié par KOS-MOS56, 03 octobre 2011 - 07:19 .

[YouthCultureForever]

There could be unseen variables preventing us from truly making sense of Shepard's death, resurrection, and apathetic stance on the subjects, but if not then it was certainly a stupid plot/respec device.

I'm hoping for the unseen variables!

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 03 octobre 2011 - 07:21 .

[FoxHound109]

KOS-MOS56 wrote...

3. I would imagine that dieing and waking up 2 years later would be similar to waking up from a coma from some sort of trauma... which can result in very little memory of the actual catastophic event. Surprise is the usual emotion involved during waking as well as a mixuture of others depending on other circumstances.

Most people who are comatose for extended periods of time are usually put through therapy to get them back on their feet. 

[KOS-MOS56]

As for Shepard getting spaced... It caught me by surprise, which is a good thing in my opinion. Had a bit of a "wow" reaction from me.

[Xilizhra]

Wasn't the point of the Lazarus Project to bring Shepard back exactly as s/he was in any case? The logs on the station were pretty explicit about it.

[KOS-MOS56]

FoxHound109 wrote...

KOS-MOS56 wrote...

3. I would imagine that dieing and waking up 2 years later would be similar to waking up from a coma from some sort of trauma... which can result in very little memory of the actual catastophic event. Surprise is the usual emotion involved during waking as well as a mixuture of others depending on other circumstances.

Most people who are comatose for extended periods of time are usually put through therapy to get them back on their feet. 

Ok, that is fine... but your imposing feelings of guilt onto a character, other than you want the death part of the story to be more to your own liking, I see no point to it.

and I like the thermal clip system .... "Oh no he diddent!" *snap snap*

and I'm paragon.... sort of.

Modifié par KOS-MOS56, 03 octobre 2011 - 07:32 .

[FoxHound109]

KOS-MOS56 wrote...


Ok, that is fine... but your imposing feelings of guilt onto a character, other than you want the death part of the story to be more to your own liking, I see no point to it.

I'm not imposing feelings of guilt, I'm imposing humanity on him because he is human. It's not simply about my own liking, it just cheapens Shepard as a character and renders his humanity useless, which is the entire crux of the series. Humanity is "the chose race" that is supposed to save the galaxy (if your Shepard is successful, at least) and part of that is because humanity has traits that the other races in the games lore lack. Shepard should, by all accounts, display his humanity if the writers actually did their job properly here.

[Kaiser Shepard]

FoxHound109 wrote...

KOS-MOS56 wrote...


Ok, that is fine... but your imposing feelings of guilt onto a character, other than you want the death part of the story to be more to your own liking, I see no point to it.

I'm not imposing feelings of guilt, I'm imposing humanity on him because he is human. It's not simply about my own liking, it just cheapens Shepard as a character and renders his humanity useless, which is the entire crux of the series. Humanity is "the chose race" that is supposed to save the galaxy (if your Shepard is successful, at least) and part of that is because humanity has traits that the other races in the games lore lack. Shepard should, by all accounts, display his humanity if the writers actually did their job properly here.

I concur. At the very least, Shepard should have been given the choice to display his humanity (or not).

[Xilizhra]

Shepard should, by all accounts, display his humanity if the writers actually did their job properly here.

If the "traits that other species lack" thing is actually followed up on, that's the writers consistently failing to do their job properly, instead of just including some dumb dialogue in ME2.

[JeffZero]

It's the perpetual down side of truly 'up to the player' minute-to-minute decision-making, that's all.

All my Shepards become varying levels of alcoholics in ME2. Not a good way to cope but the booze seems like it's everywhere.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Wasn't the point of the Lazarus Project to bring Shepard back exactly as s/he was in any case? The logs on the station were pretty explicit about it.

It was. "The same mind.  The same morals.  The same personality"

But the thing is, while they may "reset" Shep's brain to the way it was before the atack (the suspension of disbelief that takes could be a thread unto itself) Cerberus cannot predict how Shepard would react to events after wking up.  Not without a chip or something.  Without introducing time-travel, Shep would have to deal with the fact that he was dead for two years, and anything that goes with that.  The two year gap, the moving on of the galaxy, the philosophical/religious.scientific ramifications of being dead and ressurected, the isolation from old allies.  All out of Cerberus' control.  And all can potential influence Shepard in big or small ways.

[KOS-MOS56]

FoxHound109 wrote...

KOS-MOS56 wrote...


Ok, that is fine... but your imposing feelings of guilt onto a character, other than you want the death part of the story to be more to your own liking, I see no point to it.

I'm not imposing feelings of guilt, I'm imposing humanity on him because he is human. It's not simply about my own liking, it just cheapens Shepard as a character and renders his humanity useless, which is the entire crux of the series. Humanity is "the chose race" that is supposed to save the galaxy (if your Shepard is successful, at least) and part of that is because humanity has traits that the other races in the games lore lack. Shepard should, by all accounts, display his humanity if the writers actually did their job properly here.

I think you are forgetting that "humanity" has very many different traits associated with it. Being human doesn't always mean being kind, caring, having a sense of sympathy, empathy, or other emotional states associated with being vulnerable. We are a mixture of personalities each with varying degree of emotional response. It is ok to wish for a story to be more to your liking... but don't insult the writers of Bioware just because you didn't like it.

Modifié par KOS-MOS56, 03 octobre 2011 - 07:39 .

[Iakus]

FoxHound109 wrote...

I'm not imposing feelings of guilt, I'm imposing humanity on him because he is human. It's not simply about my own liking, it just cheapens Shepard as a character and renders his humanity useless, which is the entire crux of the series. Humanity is "the chose race" that is supposed to save the galaxy (if your Shepard is successful, at least) and part of that is because humanity has traits that the other races in the games lore lack. Shepard should, by all accounts, display his humanity if the writers actually did their job properly here.

"Living through adversity is what makes us human.  It's not flesh and blood, or even bone that defines us.  I might be more machine than flesh, but I'm still alive.  I'm still human"

Adam Jensen.


What I wouldn't give for Shepard to have a line that awesome in ME2.  Or even ME3.

Modifié par iakus, 03 octobre 2011 - 07:42 .

[KOS-MOS56]

That is a good line!

[FoxHound109]

KOS-MOS56 wrote...

FoxHound109 wrote...

KOS-MOS56 wrote...


Ok, that is fine... but your imposing feelings of guilt onto a character, other than you want the death part of the story to be more to your own liking, I see no point to it.

I'm not imposing feelings of guilt, I'm imposing humanity on him because he is human. It's not simply about my own liking, it just cheapens Shepard as a character and renders his humanity useless, which is the entire crux of the series. Humanity is "the chose race" that is supposed to save the galaxy (if your Shepard is successful, at least) and part of that is because humanity has traits that the other races in the games lore lack. Shepard should, by all accounts, display his humanity if the writers actually did their job properly here.

I think you are forgetting that "humanity" has very many different traits associated with it. Being human doesn't always mean being kind, caring, having a sense of sympathy, empathy, or other emotional states associated with being vulnerable. We are a mixture of personalities each with varying degree of emotional response. It is ok to wish for a story to be more to your liking... but don't insult the writers of Bioware just because you didn't like it.

The problem is that Shepard doesn't show ANY emotional response. There is not even an explanation for it. He lacks humanity, this is just true. If Shepard would at least mention ONCE in the game that he dealt with it and realized he had to be strong and move on, I could forgive it. But he doesn't. Ever. 

The problem is that it happens and the characters, world, and Shepard himself act like it never did minus a few conversations here and there. It's bad writing. Sorry.

[Nashiktal]

My favorite quote from the game Iakus.

[YouthCultureForever]

Xilizhra wrote...

Wasn't the point of the Lazarus Project to bring Shepard back exactly as s/he was in any case? The logs on the station were pretty explicit about it.

But if the project succesfully ressurrected Shepard's personality, he shouldn't operate only from the confines of who he was, he should factor in who he is now. His identity has evolved regardless of the project's intention.

[KOS-MOS56]

FoxHound109 wrote...

KOS-MOS56 wrote...

FoxHound109 wrote...

KOS-MOS56 wrote...


Ok, that is fine... but your imposing feelings of guilt onto a character, other than you want the death part of the story to be more to your own liking, I see no point to it.

I'm not imposing feelings of guilt, I'm imposing humanity on him because he is human. It's not simply about my own liking, it just cheapens Shepard as a character and renders his humanity useless, which is the entire crux of the series. Humanity is "the chose race" that is supposed to save the galaxy (if your Shepard is successful, at least) and part of that is because humanity has traits that the other races in the games lore lack. Shepard should, by all accounts, display his humanity if the writers actually did their job properly here.

I think you are forgetting that "humanity" has very many different traits associated with it. Being human doesn't always mean being kind, caring, having a sense of sympathy, empathy, or other emotional states associated with being vulnerable. We are a mixture of personalities each with varying degree of emotional response. It is ok to wish for a story to be more to your liking... but don't insult the writers of Bioware just because you didn't like it.

The problem is that Shepard doesn't show ANY emotional response. There is not even an explanation for it. He lacks humanity, this is just true. If Shepard would at least mention ONCE in the game that he dealt with it and realized he had to be strong and move on, I could forgive it. But he doesn't. Ever. 

The problem is that it happens and the characters, world, and Shepard himself act like it never did minus a few conversations here and there. It's bad writing. Sorry.

Ok.... have fun with all that.

[FoxHound109]

And for the record, saying that the writing in a portion of a story is bad and has plot holes is in NO WAY insulting. If YOU take insult to it, that is an entirely different issue, but any good writer worth his or her salt will not only NOT be insulted but appreciate the constructive criticism leveled at his or her work. That's how writing works and how writers improve. If you're a writer who can't handle criticism of what you've made then good luck ever having to deal with an editor.*

*The exception to this rule is Stephenie Meyer, who clearly killed and ate her editor at some point between getting picked up by her agent and actually getting her atrocious novels published.

Modifié par FoxHound109, 03 octobre 2011 - 07:52 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

KOS-MOS56 wrote...
I think you are forgetting that "humanity" has very many different traits associated with it. Being human doesn't always mean being kind, caring, having a sense of sympathy, empathy, or other emotional states associated with being vulnerable. We are a mixture of personalities each with varying degree of emotional response. It is ok to wish for a story to be more to your liking... but don't insult the writers of Bioware just because you didn't like it.

Even then they should have given the player the option to express feelings on the subject, or not if they do not care about it. Simply ignoring it and pretend it never happend is just bad writing.

[DarthCaine]

Never mentions it 'cos BioWare didn't want a religious flamewar