152 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Well story elements are always subjective.

True enough.  But I'm obviously not alone in my opinion.

[KotorEffect3]

iakus wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Well story elements are always subjective.

True enough.  But I'm obviously not alone in my opinion.

lol I am well aware of that.

[Athayniel]

Siansonea II wrote...

Ezzactly. 

The leveling system is an abstraction anyway. So yeah, there was no need to address it from a story standpoint, that was just silly and transparent. Anything that has to do with game mechanics DOES NOT NEED TO BE EXPLAINED WITHIN THE STORY. I mean, look at thermal clips. We roll our eyes when we run into them on Aeia, but whatever. It's part of the game mechanics, we get it, and we move on. But don't create this giant story point just to justify a change in the way the game is played. THAT sort of thing SHOULD be handwaved. You handwave game mechanics for the sake of preserving continuity in the story, you do NOT handwave the story for the sake of preserving continuity in the game mechanics. 

Yes the levelling/class system is an abstraction. But it is an abstraction of something very specific in the universe. You can't handwave away Shepard gaining or losing biotic power without some explanation in the story. You can handwave away a change in the combat mechanics or the addition of new combat powers or loss of a weapon slot. You can't handwave away a change in class. I would have preferred they had not allowed a change in class, but they did and that needs some explanation. It wasn't just a change in mechanics, it was a change in the definition of the character. Granted it wouldn't have been necessary had they not needed to reset levels or allow a change in class, but they did so an in-universe explanation for that was necessary in my opinion.

Modifié par Athayniel, 04 octobre 2011 - 06:45 .

[Hallusinaatti]

Shepard losing skill and possibly changing class is just a gameplay matter. Nothing significant there. Lack of psychological changes is another simple matter. Loosely justified with Cerberus bringing you back as intact as possible.


But hey, at least I play ME2 thinking that I just died. My sheps tend to be a lot more renegade in ME2 than in 1.

[Il Divo]

Lizardviking wrote...

Unlike Shepard's death. The cipher/beacon atleast had a presence in the story (as minor as it was), it did not feel ignored or completely disregarded unlike what happens in ME2 where the events is just an excuse to jump two years foward (making it even worse since it means that killing Shepard was completely meaningless).

Shepard's death ultimately inspires the cooperation with Cerberus. I criticize arguments which say that "Shepard must have x character development because he died". In that sense, it's no different from the Beacon's role in ME1. Neither event systematically changes the PC in a manner for the player to perceive. We don't get to explore philosophical questions regarding death any more than we get to explore questions regarding what the Prothean Beacon means for the human experience.

However, I do agree that what adds to the unbelievability of the Lazarus Project is the lack of surprise or mention amongst others, especially considering Shepard is the first to return from the dead.

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Just as a sidenote, I think having the records of an entire alien civilization repeatedly data dumped into your brain is substantially more therapy inducing than spending two years in a coma.

Since he/she came through that relatively sane where others did not, its implied at least that Shepard is made of sterner stuff than most.

Great point, one which gets ignored too often. The Prothean Cipher is treated as merely a plot device, intended to get the ball rolling for the investigation into Saren. For something which has imbibed him with the culture of a Prothean mind, Shepard doesn't seem all that changed by the cipher.

Cipher?  What's this "Cipher" thing you speak of?  I don't recall that being mentioned in ME2.  Or even in the Genesis comic.  Surely something so important to the series as Shepard having the cultural knowledge and perspective of the Protheans, and is now actually capable of thinking like and even understanding them, would have been mentioned at some point, especially in regards to reasons for ressurecting/rebuilding Shepard.

Yeah, that's sarcasm.  Don't get me started on how that little plot point fell by the wayside 

Mass Effect 1 chose to open up the cipher and Prothean Beacon. Therefore, I expect any character development as a result of that plot point to arise from ME1, not ME2.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Il Divo wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Unlike Shepard's death. The cipher/beacon atleast had a presence in the story (as minor as it was), it did not feel ignored or completely disregarded unlike what happens in ME2 where the events is just an excuse to jump two years foward (making it even worse since it means that killing Shepard was completely meaningless).

Shepard's death ultimately inspires the cooperation with Cerberus. I criticize arguments which say that "Shepard must have x character development because he died". In that sense, it's no different from the Beacon's role in ME1. Neither event systematically changes the PC in a manner for the player to perceive. We don't get to explore philosophical questions regarding death any more than we get to explore questions regarding what the Prothean Beacon means for the human experience.

However, I do agree that what adds to the unbelievability of the Lazarus Project is the lack of surprise or mention amongst others, especially considering Shepard is the first to return from the dead.

Cooperation with Cerberus could have been inspired by other and less redicules means. Like a coma.

Like I said. The beacon was not ignored, it served it's purpose. If the Lazarus project had an impact on the main-plot of ME2 like the cipher/beacon did I would tolerate it alot more. If they did not wish to have the Lazarus project mean anything at all (aside from the two year time skip), then atleast create something where Shepard can have some self-reflection or whatever. Thereby making the story stronger through that way.

And while ME1 did not have Shepard show any humanity over the cipher (they did, but it is kinda obscurred with being a few lines in Liara's last friendship dialog.). They did it with the locker scene.

[Nashiktal]

Well the beacon was one of the few things that made shep special. Now that the cipher is on the wayside, all shep is worth is brick who was killed by the collectors. He literally could have been replaced by anyone in ME2. There are plenty of charismatic people in the galaxy.

[bwaha54]

the big problem about shep's death is that it realy didn't effect shep at all. there was no real emotion to it.

hell, they chould have made a scene with kelly chambers ( your yeoman/ ship's therapist) and have her ask shepard how being brought back to life infection him/her emotionly, their belief, being turned in to a cyborg, anything. but no, just a dumb marketing stunt to build hype. disappointing  

Modifié par bwaha54, 05 octobre 2011 - 02:55 .

[Il Divo]

Lizardviking wrote...

Cooperation with Cerberus could have been inspired by other and less redicules means. Like a coma.

Certainly. And I propose the same logic with the Beacon. There were ways to incorporate the Prothean warning without resorting to "Shepard has the experiences, mind, and culture of a Prothean contained within him" while ignoring any meaningful character development which could arise from it.  

Like I said. The beacon was not ignored, it served it's purpose. If the Lazarus project had an impact on the main-plot of ME2 like the cipher/beacon did I would tolerate it alot more. If they did not wish to have the Lazarus project mean anything at all (aside from the two year time skip), then atleast create something where Shepard can have some self-reflection or whatever. Thereby making the story stronger through that way.

As a plot point, the beacon is not ignored, since the adventure hinges on it. As a method for character development, equivalent to what you're asking for Shepard's death? Where is the self-reflection contained there?

But as I said, the Lazarus Project serves its purpose, simply one which other methods could have managed without the ridiculousness of everyone ignoring the cure for death. It still doesn't make character reflection necessary.  

And while ME1 did not have Shepard show any humanity over the cipher (they did, but it is kinda obscurred with being a few lines in Liara's last friendship dialog.). They did it with the locker scene.

I'd argue that the locker scene is irrelevant. If that had been incorporated into ME2,  you would not be arguing that the death is acceptable because Shepard demonstrated humanity on a topic which had nothing to do with his death. The same logic applies. The Humanity needs to arise from his death, just as the philosophical questions must arise from the beacon.

Modifié par Il Divo, 05 octobre 2011 - 02:29 .

[who would know]

So... why was this moved out of ME3 general? ME3 is the last chance for Shep's death and rebirth to become something more than a glossed-over plot device, an afterthought.

BioWare, please do something with this plot point in ME3.

Modifié par who would know, 05 octobre 2011 - 03:32 .

[Il Divo]

who would know wrote...

So... why was this moved out of ME3 general? ME3 is the last chance for Shep's death and rebirth to become something more than a glossed-over plot device, an afterthought.

BioWare, please do something with this plot point in ME3.

I think it's because the topic and OP don't actually address ME3. It's more a critique of ME2.

[Siansonea]

Athayniel wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Ezzactly. 

The leveling system is an abstraction anyway. So yeah, there was no need to address it from a story standpoint, that was just silly and transparent. Anything that has to do with game mechanics DOES NOT NEED TO BE EXPLAINED WITHIN THE STORY. I mean, look at thermal clips. We roll our eyes when we run into them on Aeia, but whatever. It's part of the game mechanics, we get it, and we move on. But don't create this giant story point just to justify a change in the way the game is played. THAT sort of thing SHOULD be handwaved. You handwave game mechanics for the sake of preserving continuity in the story, you do NOT handwave the story for the sake of preserving continuity in the game mechanics. 

Yes the levelling/class system is an abstraction. But it is an abstraction of something very specific in the universe. You can't handwave away Shepard gaining or losing biotic power without some explanation in the story. You can handwave away a change in the combat mechanics or the addition of new combat powers or loss of a weapon slot. You can't handwave away a change in class. I would have preferred they had not allowed a change in class, but they did and that needs some explanation. It wasn't just a change in mechanics, it was a change in the definition of the character. Granted it wouldn't have been necessary had they not needed to reset levels or allow a change in class, but they did so an in-universe explanation for that was necessary in my opinion.

If that's so, then they could have addressed in some other way, not build the entire prologue of the game around it. It's just utterly transparent that Shepard's death is in the game to reset the skill tree and allow the change of class, and for no other reason. All that, just to shoehorn it into the story. Never mind all the "science doesn't work that way" moments they introduced in the process (once your brain is dead, you're dead, end of story), the fact that the dead Shepard idea has no impact on the game is inexcusable. If you're going to put something this major in the game, however stupid it is, it should matter. And not just from a "long time no see" standpoint. I mean, if I died and was resurrected through Magical Miracle Sci-Fi Gobbledygook Science, I would think that was a pretty big deal, and I'd find it reeeeally strange if everyone else acted like I'd just gotten Botox or something.

[Pro_Consul]

It's kinda funny the way some people keep chiming in with different versions of the same "Death? Pfft. No big." response. It's like they have played a few too many life-counter video games, and never realized that death is about the biggest deal there is in a person's life. About halfway through page 4 of this thread I had a scene from ST-4 pop into my head (paraphrasing):

McCoy: You really have been where no man's gone before. Can't you tell me what it felt like?

Spock: It would be impossible to discuss the subject without a common frame of reference.

McCoy: (incredulous) You mean I have to -die- to discuss your insights on death!?

Spock: Forgive me, Doctor. I am receiving a number of a distress calls.

McCoy: I don't doubt it.

And I can't help but laugh every time I see those remarks about how Shep just went to sleep and woke up two years later. Yeah. Right.

Shep watched his ship get blown to smithereens....and he watched it from INSIDE the ship. He got flung out into space, frantically flailing as his suit vented to vaccuum, knowing he was about to die from decompression. That is more than traumatic enough for even the biggest badass who ever lived to come away with psychological scars. Add to that the fact that everyone under his command, most of his friends and his love interest were all on that ship and he had no way of knowing if any of them were going to fare any better than he was doing at the moment. Not something you can just wave away by saying, "Oh, he just fell asleep and woke up two years later".

Even that al-Jilani wench's response was muffed. Shep is lauded as the great hero of humanity, tragically dead in the line of duty two years ago. He now has parks, scholarship programs and God knows what all named after him. And after she meets and interviews him on the Citadel, al-Jilani is only worried about the fact that he bull-rushed her on her own show. Crikey! You just broke the story of the decade, woman! Who cares HOW he reacted during the interview?! The fact that he is alive at all is a galaxy-wide headline maker - manna from heaven to the reporter who breaks that story first! And yet she doesn't seem to have a clue that it's even significant.

There is no explaining away the fact that this is an example of bad writing across the board on this plot point. Its as if the devs who were writing the computer code for Shep's class respec were handed the dialog scripts and told. "You guys are implementing this game mechanic, so YOU write the dialog that deals with it!"

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 05 octobre 2011 - 04:38 .

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

Certainly. And I propose the same logic with the Beacon. There were ways to incorporate the Prothean warning without resorting to "Shepard has the experiences, mind, and culture of a Prothean contained within him" while ignoring any meaningful character development which could arise from it.  

Are we talking about the beacon or the Cipher?  Because the Cipher is, imo a bigger reason to reflect on Shepard's humanity.  All the beacon really showed was Shep had the strength of will to survive the images being downloaded into his head.  The Cipher gave him the perspective of a whole other species.  Its language, instincts, cultural references, everything needed to understand the message.  It literally allowed him to think like an alien.

Yes, it would have been great to have that brought out more in ME1.  The only problem I can think of is since you can do these missions in any order, it can be quite early or quite late in the game before Shepard receives it. Thus why the only place I can think of where it specifically coems up is when Shepard hears the degraded Prothean mesage on Ilos and can understand it when his squadmates cannot.  

Shepard's death in ME2 comes at the very beginning, however.  There is no such excuse for that.  Reflection of Shepard's humanity/mortality could have come at pretty uch any time in the game.  Indeed, one would have thought that they'd combine Shepard's ressurection and the Cipher into a reason why Shepard was considered "unique" enough to bring back from the dead.  Apparantly some cut material even suggests that's the reason why the Collectors are so interested in Shepard.

I'd argue that the locker scene is irrelevant. If that had been incorporated into ME2,  you would not be arguing that the death is acceptable because Shepard demonstrated humanity on a topic which had nothing to do with his death. The same logic applies. The Humanity needs to arise from his death, just as the philosophical questions must arise from the beacon.

In large part, I agree with this.  The slump, great scene though it was, was more a general feeling of discouragement at the situation (not that ME2 really had a lot of that either.  My Shepard wanted to do a lot more than slump at the thought of having to cooperate with Cerberus)  

If there was an option to have Shepard reflect on how, between the beacon/Cipher, his death, the cybernetics, he's wondering how "human" he is anymore, I'd have been far more impressed at how "elegant" the death was for the trilogy.  To have conversation options with Mordin about how he's physically changed, with Legion about the merging of organic and synthetic life.  Talks with Thane about life and death and whether Shepard still has free will or if Cerberus now owns Shepard's body.  The possibilities go on and on with twelve squadmates.

And it took a DLC to get "How do you feel?"

[Iakus]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Shep watched his ship get blown to smithereens....and he watched it from INSIDE the ship. He got flung out into space, frantically flailing as his suit vented to vaccuum, knowing he was about to die from decompression. That is more than traumatic enough for even the biggest badass who ever lived to come away with psychological scars. Add to that the fact that everyone under his command, most of his friends and his love interest were all on that ship and he had no way of knowing if any of them were going to fare any better than he was doing at the moment. Not something you can just wave away by saying, "Oh, he just fell asleep and woke up two years later".

Even that al-Jilani wench's response was muffed. Shep is lauded as the great hero of humanity, tragically dead in the line of duty two years ago. He now has parks, scholarship programs and God knows what all named after him. And after she meets and interviews him on the Citadel, al-Jilani is only worried about the fact that he bull-rushed her on her own show. Crikey! You just broke the story of the decade, woman! Who cares HOW he reacted during the interview?! The fact that he is alive at all is a galaxy-wide headline maker - manna from heaven to the reporter who breaks that story first! And yet she doesn't seem to have a clue that it's even significant.

Stop it!  Stop it!  You're making too much sense! 

[Sgt Stryker]

I dunno, it seems like everyone else on the Citadel was acting like Shepard still being alive was already common knowledge. Look at all the reactions of various shopkeepers, for instance.

[Original182]

I'm not sure if Shepard truly died.

There are instances where it is said Shepard died, like Jacob saying Shepard was "dead as dead can be". Then in the comic when Liara was trying to recover Shepard, Feron said to Liara that Shepard was dead, or close to it, and Shepard was recovered in some statis pod.

But yeah I agree some people barely react to Shepard's death at all. The hero of the Citadel, first human Spectre and symbol of the alliance was declared killed in action for 2 years, and when he returns to the Citadel, the first reaction is "Oh sorry my computer said you were dead, let me fix it."

Modifié par Original182, 06 octobre 2011 - 05:16 .

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

Are we talking about the beacon or the Cipher?  Because the Cipher is, imo a bigger reason to reflect on Shepard's humanity.  All the beacon really showed was Shep had the strength of will to survive the images being downloaded into his head.  The Cipher gave him the perspective of a whole other species.  Its language, instincts, cultural references, everything needed to understand the message.  It literally allowed him to think like an alien.

I was using the two interchangeably, but you're right that it's the Cipher and not the beacon which imbibed Shepard with the Prothean experience.

Yes, it would have been great to have that brought out more in ME1.  The only problem I can think of is since you can do these missions in any order, it can be quite early or quite late in the game before Shepard receives it. Thus why the only place I can think of where it specifically coems up is when Shepard hears the degraded Prothean mesage on Ilos and can understand it when his squadmates cannot.  

The reason I regard it as problematic is that it's an interesting tidbit that (on its face) doesn't add anything to the storyline. Bioware could easily have incorporated some other plot device in exchange for the Cipher to explain why Shepard had to reach Feros. But like Shepard's death in ME2, the Prothean Cipher should have functioned as an interesting point of character development, and again like the death, it didn't serve a necessary plot function which some other motivation couldn't have provided.

Shepard's death in ME2 comes at the very beginning, however.  There is no such excuse for that.  Reflection of Shepard's humanity/mortality could have come at pretty uch any time in the game.  Indeed, one would have thought that they'd combine Shepard's ressurection and the Cipher into a reason why Shepard was considered "unique" enough to bring back from the dead.  Apparantly some cut material even suggests that's the reason why the Collectors are so interested in Shepard.

Agreed.

In large part, I agree with this.  The slump, great scene though it was, was more a general feeling of discouragement at the situation (not that ME2 really had a lot of that either.  My Shepard wanted to do a lot more than slump at the thought of having to cooperate with Cerberus)  

Also true, but you get my point either way. The slump scene is great, but useless to the Cipher argument. It would be similar to arguing that Shepard can have a love interest in ME2, so we don't need him to reflect on his previous death.

If there was an option to have Shepard reflect on how, between the beacon/Cipher, his death, the cybernetics, he's wondering how "human" he is anymore, I'd have been far more impressed at how "elegant" the death was for the trilogy.  To have conversation options with Mordin about how he's physically changed, with Legion about the merging of organic and synthetic life.  Talks with Thane about life and death and whether Shepard still has free will or if Cerberus now owns Shepard's body.  The possibilities go on and on with twelve squadmates.

And it took a DLC to get "How do you feel?"

I would have enjoyed all these things very much.

Modifié par Il Divo, 06 octobre 2011 - 07:41 .

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

iakus wrote...

Yes, it would have been great to have that brought out more in ME1.  The only problem I can think of is since you can do these missions in any order, it can be quite early or quite late in the game before Shepard receives it. Thus why the only place I can think of where it specifically coems up is when Shepard hears the degraded Prothean mesage on Ilos and can understand it when his squadmates cannot.  

The reason I regard it as problematic is that it's an interesting tidbit that (on its face) doesn't add anything to the storyline. Bioware could easily have incorporated some other plot device in exchange for the Cipher to explain why Shepard had to reach Feros. But like Shepard's death in ME2, the Prothean Cipher should have functioned as an interesting point of character development, and again like the death, it didn't serve a necessary plot function which some other motivation couldn't have provided.

I actually expected the Cipher to have more of an impact in ME2.  Shepard understanding spoken Prothean on Ilos seemed to hint that it did more than clarify the visions in his mind.  Law of unintended consequences and all.  Alas, it appears not to be.  And this doesn't bode well for Shep's death to have any further impact inME3 either, really.

[MatrixTheRenegade]

I'm on the fence, because this actually worked out really well for me. It's about the only damn thing that did in ME2, as some who've seen me post will know, so that's saying something when I concede it haha.

My character was a sole survivor colonist. He hated aliens with a vengeance in ME1 and came to bregrudgingly respect a couple of individual aliens by the end of it. He killed the council and the Rachni to make a better and safer universe for the human race.

Then he wakes up (after being ressurrected by CERBERUS!?!) and all of that failed and people hate humans more than ever. And he's surrounded by cerberus people and aliens, and the aliens are the only ones he can trust. And Garrus is pretty much his best friend.

As I wandered around in Omega shortly after starting the game I wondered about how he'd feel. Then I found the bar, found the drinking minigame. Hey, that's neat. I had a drink. Then I went to do some things... then I came right back and just had him drink until he passed out.

I wanted more dialogue to address it, though, and I agree the squadmate reactions to your being alive were horrible. And I've said it before and I'll say it again, BW **** the bed on sole survivors in a huge, huge way.

But I did at least feel like you could have ALL Shepard actions were edgier. In the first game paragon was much more standard boyscout good guy, in ME2 paragon has way more edge. Tons of the paragon options involve pistolwhipping people, for god's sakes. And renegade is even more off the deep end. You can threaten like, one harmless person at gunpoint in ME1, and they have to really ****** you off for you to even see that option. In ME2 you can take slam your gun barrel in people's faces more often than not, even for things ME1's shepard archetype would never bother with, like street punks and the like. And renegade shepard kills seem a lot darker, as well. In the original you were cold blooded but still quite solemn when executing people that are in your power. In ME2 Shepard is completely tactless, often showing a level of glee in his killing. The batarian merc's electrocution? He didn't have to do that, and ME1 probably wouldn't. "I've got nothing more to say to y--WHOMPH!" "How about GOODBYE :smug: "

Shepard really is different. You're right that the subject needed to be considerably better addressed, and BW did a bad job of doing as much, as sure as they did a bad job of a lot of the things ME2 should have offered for character insight. But Shepard is absolutely darker in the second game, as a rule. It seems like it's going to dovetail back in ME3 as well, with you being able to have your Shep look into the face of apocalypse and become more gentle and tender, or presumably completely break bad ala Walter White from that AMC show, just barely staying inside the boundaries of a character you can root for.

[d1sciple]

pretty cynical stuff going on. marketing, advertising ploys, big brother type stuff, i'm the kinda guy that believes armegeddon's tomorrow but even i don't think Bioware are that low.

to me ME2 is all about TIM and the Collectors, it's pretty simple and pretty clear.
yeah i'm pissed sheps death gets almost washed over by everyone, in fact i started a thread pointing out my disappointment at the treatment of sheps biological/cybernetic rebuild in the story, but it does all makes simple sense when looked at from the TIM v Collectors view. he wanted shep because they wanted shep, that's it, everything else was a lie and even the Cerberus cheerleader figures that out at the end.

shep watched everything he loved die, then woke up to find the bad guys not only brought him back to life but are the only ones continuing the fight he started and not only that, after 'coming out' to the galaxy they are still the only one's ready to back him. his friends have all moved on after watching him die and his anger and bloodymindedness ultimately sees him not only manipulated by TIM but betrayed.

i think sheps behaviour and what seems like ignorance of the situation more than fits with his character and the overall story. he has to sell his soul to the devil as the devil is the only one willing to help.
there could always be more, but it is a game not a novel and the lapse of time with little to know explanation has been used to good effect in movies and literature for years.

Modifié par d1sciple, 06 octobre 2011 - 11:37 .

[shep82]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

FoxHound109 wrote...

It's not that he shouldn't have died

Well, it's that as as well. Surely BioWare could've come up with a better reason to railroad Shepard into working with Cerberus.

Maybe but I like what they did.

[Frostmourne86]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Yeah he died in ME2. So... why are you bringing this up in the ME3 forum?

Because, if you look at the Forum links at the top of the page, you would see that this is the Mass Effect 2 Official Campaign Quests and Storylines.