165 réponses à ce sujet

[Bekkael]

Feminine:

1.)Of or relating to women or girls.

2.)The feminine gender.

Source

[D.Kain]

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

Let's put it this way.

What if male Shepard's special outfit for Kasumi's mission involved a kilt that was a little short. An argument would be when Shepard(male or female) sits in front of Garrus, no one wants to see where the sun don't shine, and Shepard(male or female) should close their legs.

However the argument I keep seeing when it comes to femShep is because she is a woman and women don't sit like that. That's what is annoying me about this argument about making female Shepard have so called "feminine" animations. It's not about what's natural, it's about what a woman's behavior should be.

To me "feminine" walk and "feminine" sitting is through social influences. For a woman to get her hips to truly sway, they need to learn to walk on a line. That is what fashion models do on the run way. Men actually have a sway in their walk too if you watch carefully, it's just how humans walk. I think the illusion of a natural sway created by women is through the curve of the hips. Which is what we see in cut scenes when femShep is walking and it appears as though her hips sway. She's still using the same exact walk as male Shepard, she just has hips that creates the illusion of a sway.

I've had a friend who's mother constantly berated her for how she walked because it wasn't "feminine." Honestly now that I think of it, she walked like femShep. Very so called "masculine." She wasn't even an athlete or soldier. In fact she was pretty so called "feminine" in personality, liked pink and make up. But her walk wasn't so called "feminine." To me, it's something social.

If a woman is wearing pants, then she should sit how she feels comfortable, which could mean with her legs apart. I don't understand where it goes from being inappropriate when sitting in a chair, to appropriate when a woman sits cross legged or in a meditation type position. Is it because her feet are in the way now? If she were wearing a dress she'd be exposing herself far worse. My only conclusion is there some kind of social silliness behind it.

I like you. 

[CrookedAsylum]

Bekkael wrote...

CrookedAsylum wrote...

Bekkael wrote...

Dr. rotinaj wrote...

The femshep dress was the only time where the shared animations were a problem. I think it's fine that the animations are the same for each Shepard, the quality of some anims definitely needs to be raised though.

Dress or no dress, sitting FemShep made me facepalm. Most women don't sit with their legs splayed into two different time zones. That's an inherently male thing to do.

I do it. I am very female. In fact, wearing dresses is awkward for me because I have to fight the urge to spread my legs and slouch when I'm sitting.

Notice I specified most women.

Who knows how most women sit? But sitting like that isn't inherently male or female; it's rather gender neutral, in fact. A lot of women wouldn't sit up prim and pretty - this isn't meant as an insult - if it wasn't taught into us since birth as the societal norm.

It's like women shaving. That didn't come about until the 20s, maybe the 30s, when a sword maker company fell into hard times, IE, no one buying swords anymore. They started making razors and marketing them to women as a means to make themselves more beautiful. Didn't even really pick up until the forties. Nowadays, it's the norm, and not shaving is seen as abnormal is you're a woman.

Same with the way most women choose to sit. The way I sit isn't inherently masculine. It's inherently gender neutral, and I like that about femShep; she's, over all, gender neutral who's a soldier before she's anything else.

That said, sitting with your legs spread in a short dress is a horrible idea.

[D.Kain]

Bekkael wrote...

Feminine:

1.)Of or relating to women or girls.

2.)The feminine gender.

Source

I think the time has come to make definitions of what is feminine and masculine, at the same completely seperating the terms from woman and man.

[CrookedAsylum]

Bekkael wrote...

Feminine:

1.)Of or relating to women or girls.

2.)The feminine gender.

Source

And who decides what is feminine? Common perception.

"Real men wear pink."

Way back when, that was true. Pink was seen as a masculine color; the result of mixing red, of blood I believe, with white which was meant to resemble patriotism. Blue was the feminine color; women were supposed to be calm and gentle, and blue is usually precieved as a calm and gentle color.

[Bekkael]

CrookedAsylum wrote...

Bekkael wrote...

CrookedAsylum wrote...

Bekkael wrote...

Dr. rotinaj wrote...

The femshep dress was the only time where the shared animations were a problem. I think it's fine that the animations are the same for each Shepard, the quality of some anims definitely needs to be raised though.

Dress or no dress, sitting FemShep made me facepalm. Most women don't sit with their legs splayed into two different time zones. That's an inherently male thing to do.

I do it. I am very female. In fact, wearing dresses is awkward for me because I have to fight the urge to spread my legs and slouch when I'm sitting.

Notice I specified most women.

Who knows how most women sit? But sitting like that isn't inherently male or female; it's rather gender neutral, in fact. A lot of women wouldn't sit up prim and pretty - this isn't meant as an insult - if it wasn't taught into us since birth as the societal norm.

It's like women shaving. That didn't come about until the 20s, maybe the 30s, when a sword maker company fell into hard times, IE, no one buying swords anymore. They started making razors and marketing them to women as a means to make themselves more beautiful. Didn't even really pick up until the forties. Nowadays, it's the norm, and not shaving is seen as abnormal is you're a woman.

Same with the way most women choose to sit. The way I sit isn't inherently masculine. It's inherently gender neutral, and I like that about femShep; she's, over all, gender neutral who's a soldier before she's anything else.

That said, sitting with your legs spread in a short dress is a horrible idea.

My statement as to how most women sit is based on a lifetime of observation, worldwide travel and living and working in other countries. Some things just seem to translate across many cultures. That said, it is only my experience, therefore my perception. Perhaps all the women I have never met nor observed like to sit with their legs wide open. If so, my bad. YMMV, and I certainly don't think it's something worthy of arguing about.

[JamieCOTC]

I liked the walk/run in ME1 better for both Sheps. (They had the same rig). I don't like the walk/run for either Shep in ME2 at all. For me, it's not so much that I want her to walk feminine, but that I don't want her to walk like a Gorilla w/ a set between her legs. Give me true gender neutrality and go back to the ME1 walk/run.

[Faerlyte]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the 'most women' category who do adhere to those social tendencies are probably in the minority of the female gaming populace. I like Shepard's walk/run in ME2 fine. Unless the changes are absolutely minimal, I can't see it going anywhere but in the wrong direction.

The armor is bulkier and heavier - she's not going to move like a ballerina in it, and she's jogging which is not as smooth as a full out run would be. The gait fits her equipment. I do a lot of running and the animation strikes me as a pretty accurate interpretation, which I suppose is why I like it. And I'm all for sitting with legs apart too because I do it all the time myself. I don't walk feminine and I don't sit feminine. I like to think I walk and sit like a normal person whose not trying to alter my gait because I've got hips or because I'm supposed to move a certain way.

But that's just me. I don't want to see my Shepard's hips swinging. At all.

Modifié par Faerlyte, 04 octobre 2011 - 12:43 .

[Yakko77]

Faerlyte wrote...

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the 'most women' category who do adhere to those social tendencies are probably in the minority of the female gaming populace. I like Shepard's walk/run in ME2 fine. Unless the changes are absolutely minimal, I can't see it going anywhere but in the wrong direction.

The armor is bulkier and heavier - she's not going to move like a ballerina in it, and she's jogging which is not as smooth as a full out run would be. The gait fits her equipment. I do a lot of running and the animation strikes me as a pretty accurate interpretation, which I suppose is why I like it. And I'm all for sitting with legs apart too because I do it all the time myself. I don't walk feminine and I don't sit feminine. I like to think I walk and sit like a normal person whose not trying to alter my gait because I've got hips or because I'm supposed to move a certain way.

But that's just me. I don't want to see my Shepard's hips swinging. At all.

Oh come on!  Have you seen "dem hips" on female Hawke in DA2? 

I greatly enjoy the game and have played it multiple times but the hip swagger of female Hawke is a bit.... extreme.  I have NEVAH seen a woman run like that without injuring herself in some way!  

:happy:

[Tonymac]

JamieCOTC wrote...

I liked the walk/run in ME1 better for both Sheps. (They had the same rig). I don't like the walk/run for either Shep in ME2 at all. For me, it's not so much that I want her to walk feminine, but that I don't want her to walk like a Gorilla w/ a set between her legs. Give me true gender neutrality and go back to the ME1 walk/run.

I'm tending to agree with JamieCOTC.

I would prefer that the Sheps run more like athletes than well,  -   "a Gorilla w/ a set between her legs."

[Luigitornado]

Yeah of course being a bit more feminine would be nice. It's not a terrible thing or insulting to have a female character to act a little bit more like a woman then a men.

Obsession over masculinity is annoying.

[Luigitornado]

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

D.Kain wrote...

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

Women must behave like this, women must sit like this, women must dress like this, women must talk like this, women must look like this. Otherwise they are not women despite what gender they are born as. All because they do not follow the social norm they are turned into men and that is disgusting.

Same goes for men.

Yes, but no one is making threads complaining about how male Shepard behaves. He is behaving how it is socially acceptable. Though I've seen some people say the way he crosses his arms is too feminine, which is just ridiculous.

You could count though that people like to say male shepard being bisexual/gay will some how damage his leadership skills. Meanwhile it's perfectly acceptable for female shepard to have bisexual tendencies. 

Social gender expectations.

Women are not men. Women should be embraced for being women; not for acting just like men.

Modifié par Luigitornado, 04 octobre 2011 - 01:54 .

[Lucky Thirteen]

Luigitornado
wrote...

Women are not men. Women should be embraced for being women; not for acting
just like men.

Women and men should embrace being human, being flesh and bone, being alive,
being themselves. Not being what society tells them they should be.

I'll quote myself:

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

I don't see how equality can be formed if gender stereotypes that create inequality are being enforced.

Female Shepard is one of the most respected women in the Mass Effect universe and I'd argue one of the most out of all heroines in video games, sci-fi, comics, ect. Her capablities is questioned based on gender once by that batarian on archangels recruit mission, and I really don't want to see bulls*** like that again just so other people can somehow "feel connected" to her through something sexist. I get enough of it on a daily bases working in an electronics department, from men and women alike. 

She doesn't need to be a man to gain anything, but she doesn't need to prove she is a woman either. What defines her is her talents and skill. Not how she walks and sits.

Same goes for male Shepard of course.

[Urazz]

I would like to see femshep be more feminine in mannerisms like when sitting down or walking/running. While they are at it I hope they fix the run/walk of the maleshep to not look like a gorilla.

[Lucky Thirteen]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

The fact is, though, women have a different body structure, so they do walk differently. Has nothing to do with social issues, just with the body. 

Again, like I said before, I had a friend who didn't walk "feminine" yet she had a very "feminine" personality. Wasn't an athlete or a soldier, liked pink and makeup and dresses. It was just how her body was and her mother frequently berated her for not walking "feminine." You are assuming all women are identical and fall under the definition of "feminine" as society dictates a woman to be. Women have different body types from each other, not just from men. Women can walk in a "masculine" manner and men can walk in a "feminine" manner, that's because that's how their genetic make up is, their bone structures, their body wanted to be that way beyond the persons control. 

[Hathur]

Bekkael wrote...

I think such threads are made because female gamers in general have a difficult time being acknowleged, and we would like our slice of game preferences to be considered. FemShep sharing animations with MaleShep makes the experience feel less unique, and like FemShep is second class as a character.  Gender stereotypes aren't really a factor for me, it's about equality in gaming, which we are still a long way away from, sadly.

Pretty much hit the nail on the head for me with this... I confess, I sometimes feel personally slighted somewhat that women are deemed too insignificant or important enough to warrant our own separate animations, etc... I know it shouldn't offend me, since we probably comprise considerably less than half the player base of Mass Effect (20-30% maybe at most), so obviously Bioware's core interest is males... and I get that.... but I still can't help but feel the "meh, women aren't a significant percentage of our player base, don't bother animating them separately, it would cost too much."

Don't get me wrong though, I adore Bioware as developers for simply giving me the option to play a strong female role (something exceedingly rare if not near non-existant in gaming)... I'm immensely grateful for it and they've earned my loyalty as a fan / consumer for it (goes back to Baldur's Gate where I could play a female character back then too and it was acknowledged separately in game too... as a young teen back then it was delightful for me).

Still, I hope they go the extra mile in ME3 and animate males & females separately... I'll still delight in ME3 if they don't, but I'll love the game even more for the extra "little details".

Modifié par Hathur, 04 octobre 2011 - 02:31 .

[Lucky Thirteen]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

I'm not talking about "feminine" or "masculine," I'm talking about body structure. I have yet to see a woman walk totally like a man who wasn't deliberately doing it. Again, no one is talking about swaying hips or such nonsense. But it's different. Women have a shorter, wider pelvis. All women do. Hence, all women have a slightly different walk than men.

The pelvis difference can be so very very slight. You can't always identify bones being male and female without takeing an actual measureing tape to the pelvis.

Women also can develope a masculine, narrow pelvis, which leads to birthing issues of course(edit: thus the invention of the C-Section), but it does happen in many women.

Modifié par Lucky Thirteen, 04 octobre 2011 - 02:32 .

[Luigitornado]

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

Luigitornado
wrote...

Women are not men. Women should be embraced for being women; not for acting
just like men.

Women and men should embrace being human, being flesh and bone, being alive,
being themselves. Not being what society tells them they should be.

I'll quote myself:

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

I don't see how equality can be formed if gender stereotypes that create inequality are being enforced.

Female Shepard is one of the most respected women in the Mass Effect universe and I'd argue one of the most out of all heroines in video games, sci-fi, comics, ect. Her capablities is questioned based on gender once by that batarian on archangels recruit mission, and I really don't want to see bulls*** like that again just so other people can somehow "feel connected" to her through something sexist. I get enough of it on a daily bases working in an electronics department, from men and women alike.

She doesn't need to be a man to gain anything, but she doesn't need to prove she is a woman either. What defines her is her talents and skill. Not how she walks and sits.

Same goes for male Shepard of course.

Bull lol.

We live in a masculine dominated society, so you're preaching in a fish bowl, my friend.

[Lucky Thirteen]

Luigitornado wrote...
Bull lol.

We live in a masculine dominated society, so you're preaching in a fish bowl, my friend.

But the highly respected, stronge, talented  and skilled woman is in the game, is she not? Is that not what has gained her popularity amongst female and male fans alike?

Perhaps society as a whole doesn't reflect it, but the game has it.