106 réponses à ce sujet

[flemm]

The whole "over-shadowing" thing strikes me as a none-issue tbh. Once you get to a certain amount of screen time, say, approximately what Tali or Garrus had in ME2, at that point it becomes a quality issue, really. If the appearance is good, then the screentime will be sufficient at that point.

Modifié par flemm, 04 octobre 2011 - 03:54 .

[shepskisaac]

Xilizhra wrote...

Okay, great. So what memorable moment does the one we're stuck with for the rest of the series get?

None so far because he/she appeard for 5 seconds in ME2? Kinda hard to make an impact in such screen time don't ya think?

[Xilizhra]

What utter nonsense. The most important thing they do is anthropomorphizing humanity in ME1 and creating emotional engagement to the story. They're actual characters, and not just forced plot devices / infodumps like Liara and Tali.

**** off.

None so far because he/she appeard for 5 seconds in ME2? Kinda hard to make an impact in such screen time don't ya think?

I was more referring to the whole game they had preceding it...

[shepskisaac]

Xilizhra wrote...

**** off.

PMS?

Xilizhra wrote...

I was more referring to the whole game they had preceding it...

Then I provided you an extremly memorable moment with them, both of them since they're both taking part in the mission and the choice. If you're asking after that, I'm asking what impact made Tali or Garrus after their mini personal missions in ME1?

[flemm]

None of the ME1 characters really do all that much, tbh (in ME1). So that's really not a great criteria for evaluating them. Clearly their appeal isn't primarily anchored in doing stuff.

Modifié par flemm, 04 octobre 2011 - 04:06 .

[Meesherbeans]

Woah, people. Chill out a little. We all clearly have our favorite companions/LIs, no need to get angry over it.

It's all a matter of preference, really. Those who enjoy the VS are going to want more of them than the other companion options, while those who prefer other LIs/friends are going to want them to have more time than the VS. Reasons vary, as does how strongly you desire it one way or the other.

Now, I admit I am squarely in the "would like the VS to have more screen time than the other companions" camp, but I can understand why that would be frustrating to those who don't care for them too much. Doesn't mean I agree, but I respect and understand it. My personal feelings on it are...Tali/Garrus (since they're the two who stayed from 1 to 2, and now in 3) got fleshed out. They grew up, and we could see that happen because for the most part we were right there in ME2.

On the other hand, the VS grew into their own without Shepard and now we know them...but we really don't know them anymore. I personally hope we have the time to really relearn them, which would require slightly more time with them than the others. Their having to deal with that loss and how they learn to trust Shepard again could be the most complex and most beautiful love story BioWare has done yet. It could also be their cheesiest, but I'll give them some faith. It has the potential to be amazing, and I think a lot of VS fans are hoping for that - which, as I said, would likely require a little more screen time.

Once again, since things seem to have gotten heated, I say all of this with the utmost respect for those who disagree.

[Xilizhra]

PMS?

My support for you as a representative of the most screwed-over minority of ME players is waning. But to elaborate: I don't think the VS' are bad characters. I think they were poorly implemented. I love Liara to death and she has plenty of poor implementation moments. However, a lot of VS supporters seem to have this attitude of "if you can't appreciate her/his/their awesomeness, you're a shallow self-racist," which I find ridiculous. Which is why I'm here. However, I'm not attacking the integrity of their characters as a whole; I honestly wish they'd been handled better so we could all appreciate their awesomeness. Laecraft isn't extending the same courtesy, and only considers human life precious anyway. And thusly I say unto him, **** off.

Then I provided you an extremly memorable moment with them, both of them since they're both taking part in the mission and the choice. If you're asking after that, I'm asking what impact made Tali or Garrus after their mini personal missions in ME1?

It's not just about memorable moments; it couldn't have been, or fan calls wouldn't have brought them into ME2. Garrus and Tali come from distinct backgrounds alien to both Shepard and the players (this doesn't mean they can't be human; Miranda and Jack both pulled it off). Ashley and Kaidan needed more to make them stand out more, and didn't get it.

[DoNotIngest]

Tali and Garrus made impacts because people liked them. They were big in ME2, got even more popular, they'll be rightfully big in ME3.

I suppose the VS and Liara deserve equal screentime in ME3 to Team Dextro, though I, personally, never connected too deeply with them (This matters because as somebody on the BSN, my sole opinion controls Bioware's actions, obviously). Wrex is the one who really got shafted, he'll be the only ME1 permanent who wasn't permenant in at least two games. Poor Tyrant Krogan King.

And Isaac, while I'm mature enough not to hate on characters or do them anything but good in my playthroughs, you damage your favourites' fanbase and image when you hate "rival" characters

Modifié par DoNotIngest, 04 octobre 2011 - 04:09 .

[ADLegend21]

Xilizhra wrote...

If they don't have anything Shepard can be involved with, it's not interesting. The net effect for many people is to just turn them into people who follow you around and shoot, without having any real lives of their own beyond a few conversations. Sure, some people can get plenty of enjoyment from that, but it's unfair to tell those who can't that they're just control freaks who need to fix people for its own sake.

shepard isn't their babysitter! Shepard doesn't pick someone up and go "If you got a problem , yo I'll solve it check out my ship while Joker flys it." Shepard isn't some councilor that has to fi the problems of Grown men and women.  Ashley has a family of four sisters and her mother and talks about them at length with Shepard in ME1. Kaidan had a traumatic experience and let Shepard in on how bad BaAt was, but he's OVER IT. Hell, Kaidan is OLDER than Shepard and outranks him/her in ME2. Hell Kaidan alone gets more disrespect from bioware than anyone. "Alenko's a good kid" he's 3 years older than you Shepard, you have no right to call him a kid of ANY KIND. Ashley gets the most disrespect form the fan base because her WRITER had to come on a forum and eplain in detail that she's not a racist, that isn't how he wrote her and she never will be a racist. It's in the OP of the Ashley thread if you want to check it out. Point is, VS hasn't gottenlove for years, there was no DLC like LoTSB for Liara and you kill some guy named "Williams" in arrival, that's as close as you get the the VS off the colony on Horizon. They're spectre's now. along with probably Miranda, they're on Shepard's level now. Not as subordinates, as Equals. They can take care of themselves and maybe take care of Shepard for once instead of having to run to them for help. I love them that way I love  that I don't have to help them and that they're on my level. idk about oyu but I'd rather fight with colleagues than underlings. that's all the interesting I need from them.

[LiquidGrape]

IsaacShep wrote...

Then I provided you an extremly memorable moment with them, both of them since they're both taking part in the mission and the choice. If you're asking after that, I'm asking what impact made Tali or Garrus after their mini personal missions in ME1?

They provided a microcosmos of multicultural representation. They were our reliable and ultimately introductory insights into the Turian and Quarian species'.
Kaidan and Ash, regardless of how amicable a relationship I formed with the latter, had essentially one dramatic function: to provide that moment of conflict.

PMS?

Very classy, by the way.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 04 octobre 2011 - 04:11 .

[aiDvEoN]

The problem is that Virmire fell flat for a lot of people, because for a lot of us it was "ditch the one we don't like or don't use". Whoop de do. Given that Ash is as bad as Tali in her ability to divide the fandom, and Alenko is Jacob's predecessor in the captain cardboard stakes, it sort of kills the emotional potential.

On topic, I'm fine with the VS getting a leading role, I love Ash as a character. I've got my token playthrough with Alenko, so I'll grin and bear it, and hope he got a personality in the intervening period. The Blue Mary Sue on the other hand, I am NOT looking forward to, because given how hard Bioware have pushed her, I anticipate she's going to get a lot of screen time. If it comes at the expense of my brother from another mother, and my lover from a distant star, both of whom hdave had my back the whole way, then I know who dies first, consequences be damned.

[ADLegend21]

DoNotIngest wrote...

Wrex is the one who really got shafted, he'll be the only ME1 permanent who wasn't permenant in at least two games. Poor Tyrant Krogan King.

um...WHAT?! Wrex got Shafted? ah yes "shafted" when EVERYONE on the effing BSN loves you and think's you're the most badass person not named Shepard in the series. Wrex leads his entire species to boot. The Krogan live and die by Urdnot Wrex and you will scarely find someone who has anything negative to say about him. Wrex got the shaft... you so funny!

[jeweledleah]

I cannot believe, I'm agreeing with AD, but main issue with VS (and Jacob) is that they don't really need Shepard. they do in fact have their own lives and they deal with them on their own just fine, thank you very much. they are there as Shepard's partners not students, followers, worshipers, etc. and considering that Shepard is put on this giant pedestal by everyone else - how dare they be someone that is, gasp - equal? Wrex is that also, to some degree, but he's a cool alien. Miranda was supposed to have been that, but she goes from - you have to prove your worth, to all hail great Shepard, very abruptly.

still - I don't want them to over shadow anyone. I just want them to have a good, quality arch, I want their personalities to develop without being rewritten into someone Shepard dependent and for the love of god, I hope Bioware attempts to give all the squadmates, current, or former their great time to shine. YesVS was overlooked. yes they weren't given any favors with that Horizon scene. I want them to be vindicated and I want their ME3 story to rock.

but I do NOT want it to happen at the cost of everyone else getting sidelined. I have been there. and it sucks. I'm hoping bioware have learned from their mistakes and will treat EVERYONE fairly and equally.

[Meesherbeans]

jeweledleah wrote...

still - I don't want them to over shadow anyone. I just want them to have a good, quality arch, I want their personalities to develop without being rewritten into someone Shepard dependent and for the love of god, I hope Bioware attempts to give all the squadmates, current, or former their great time to shine. YesVS was overlooked. yes they weren't given any favors with that Horizon scene. I want them to be vindicated and I want their ME3 story to rock.

but I do NOT want it to happen at the cost of everyone else getting sidelined. I have been there. and it sucks. I'm hoping bioware have learned from their mistakes and will treat EVERYONE fairly and equally.

I agree with this so hardcore.

[DoNotIngest]

ADLegend21 wrote...

DoNotIngest wrote...

Wrex is the one who really got shafted, he'll be the only ME1 permanent who wasn't permenant in at least two games. Poor Tyrant Krogan King.

um...WHAT?! Wrex got Shafted? ah yes "shafted" when EVERYONE on the effing BSN loves you and think's you're the most badass person not named Shepard in the series. Wrex leads his entire species to boot. The Krogan live and die by Urdnot Wrex and you will scarely find someone who has anything negative to say about him. Wrex got the shaft... you so funny!

Well, y'know. I meant he got shafted because he'll only make it full-time in one game. I suppose a romanceable Wrex would have solved that, but he's just too much Krogan for anyone. Even an undead terminator of justice.





EDIT: Also, can somebody point out the value of the VS beyond their fighting skills? Not to say that Garrus isn't any better for Reaper-quashing-army-mongering, what with being known as the "Rebel Turian" in ME3, but Shepard already has Alliance background and Spectre status.

Seems like the real game changers in ME3 will be Legion, Tali, and Wrex (With Mordin maybe helping with the genophage). Liara will probably be useful too with dat info.

Modifié par DoNotIngest, 04 octobre 2011 - 04:19 .

[Collider]

I noticed that the VS' importance up until ME3 is mostly circumstantial. Kaidan happened to be the same ship as Shepard. Ashley happened to be on Eden Prime. This is particularly bad for Kaidan as he is the only squad mate on the squad who had no relevance to Saren whatsoever. Ashley at least had her squad decimated by Saren's grunts.

On virmire, they serve no other purpose than being trained in alliance protocol. As such, Ashley & Kaidan's roles could be filled by any other decent alliance soldiers that were under Shepard's command.

The other squad mates in ME1 have more unique roles in the story.

That said, it's time for the VS to shine again.

[ADLegend21]

Also, despite what you may think, tali and garrus made no impacts. Tehy've done nothing in the overall picture. Well Tali's FATHER made an impact by almost sending his people to war with the Geth, but she had no part in it besides covering it up. Garrus Went to Omega after he got fed up with C-Sec (again) and Tali just does random migrant fleet work until Shepard shows up. whoopty friggen do. They could be so much better than they are, garrus could be a high ranking Turian military officer and Tali oculd be preparing to take her fathers seat on the admiralty board, but no, they aren't doing that, they're riding sheaprd's coat tails.

[Xilizhra]

I cannot believe, I'm agreeing with AD, but main issue with VS (and Jacob) is that they don't really need Shepard. they do in fact have their own lives and they deal with them on their own just fine, thank you very much. they are there as Shepard's partners not students, followers, worshipers, etc. and considering that Shepard is put on this giant pedestal by everyone else - how dare they be someone that is, gasp - equal? Wrex is that also, to some degree, but he's a cool alien. Miranda was supposed to have been that, but she goes from - you have to prove your worth, to all hail great Shepard, very abruptly.

There's no shame in needing people. Shepard needed everyone to accomplish the suicide mission. Since generally, you won't switch to another character to play their personal missions, the only way Shepard can get deeply involved in knowing someone is to help them accomplish something. And why is that bad? Why should those who do need Shepard's help be criticized as somehow lesser? As I said, Shepard needs them too. We all need each other.

[Collider]

Tali provided unique evidence against Saren & Benezia that only someone very tech skilled (particularly geth tech) could have acquired.

That had great impact - leading to Shepard being made a spectre and being allowed to pursue Kaidan.

Garrus protected Michel who had information about Fist. Although, so did Wrex, so Garrus is overall less important.

All of the ME1 squad mates were important in their own way, at least depending on what you do.

Modifié par Collider, 04 octobre 2011 - 04:21 .

[Iclonic]

jeweledleah wrote...

I don't want them to over shadow anyone. I just want them to have a good, quality arch, I want their personalities to develop without being rewritten into someone Shepard dependent and for the love of god, I hope Bioware attempts to give all the squadmates, current, or former their great time to shine. YesVS was overlooked. yes they weren't given any favors with that Horizon scene. I want them to be vindicated and I want their ME3 story to rock.

but I do NOT want it to happen at the cost of everyone else getting sidelined. I have been there. and it sucks. I'm hoping bioware have learned from their mistakes and will treat EVERYONE fairly and equally.

Amen.

[Drone223]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If they don't have anything Shepard can be involved with, it's not interesting. The net effect for many people is to just turn them into people who follow you around and shoot, without having any real lives of their own beyond a few conversations. Sure, some people can get plenty of enjoyment from that, but it's unfair to tell those who can't that they're just control freaks who need to fix people for its own sake.

shepard isn't their babysitter! Shepard doesn't pick someone up and go "If you got a problem , yo I'll solve it check out my ship while Joker flys it." Shepard isn't some councilor that has to fi the problems of Grown men and women.  Ashley has a family of four sisters and her mother and talks about them at length with Shepard in ME1. Kaidan had a traumatic experience and let Shepard in on how bad BaAt was, but he's OVER IT. Hell, Kaidan is OLDER than Shepard and outranks him/her in ME2. Hell Kaidan alone gets more disrespect from bioware than anyone. "Alenko's a good kid" he's 3 years older than you Shepard, you have no right to call him a kid of ANY KIND. Ashley gets the most disrespect form the fan base because her WRITER had to come on a forum and eplain in detail that she's not a racist, that isn't how he wrote her and she never will be a racist. It's in the OP of the Ashley thread if you want to check it out. Point is, VS hasn't gottenlove for years, there was no DLC like LoTSB for Liara and you kill some guy named "Williams" in arrival, that's as close as you get the the VS off the colony on Horizon. They're spectre's now. along with probably Miranda, they're on Shepard's level now. Not as subordinates, as Equals. They can take care of themselves and maybe take care of Shepard for once instead of having to run to them for help. I love them that way I love  that I don't have to help them and that they're on my level. idk about oyu but I'd rather fight with colleagues than underlings. that's all the interesting I need from them.

Yeah I actually like the fact that the VS stood up to Shepard, it makes them human by showing that best friends and lovers have their diagreements like in real life, hopefully this will be explored in ME3

[flemm]

Honestly, it just strikes me as something that will likely end up being a total none-issue, especially where the VS is concerned. If s/he ended up being scripted for a big indoctrination scene or something of that nature, it wouldn't surprise me. Being important to the plot in a story like this isn't necessarily a recipe for dominating the awesomeness category.

If you don't like Liara, then I might be a little more concerned in your place, becaue she may be doing mission briefings and stuff. But there again, having a bunch of expository dialogue doesn't add up to more awesomeness than Garrus might get, for example, with less lines and less screen time.

Modifié par flemm, 04 octobre 2011 - 04:27 .

[shepskisaac]

Xilizhra wrote...

My support for you as a representative of the most screwed-over minority of ME players is waning.

Because I dared to notice "**** off" response wasn't exactly the most "constructive"? Yeah I see

Xilizhra wrote...

But to elaborate: I don't think the VS' are bad characters. I think they were poorly implemented. I love Liara to death and she has plenty of poor implementation moments. However, a lot of VS supporters seem to have this attitude of "if you can't appreciate her/his/their awesomeness, you're a shallow self-racist," which I find ridiculous. Which is why I'm here. However, I'm not attacking the integrity of their characters as a whole; I honestly wish they'd been handled better so we could all appreciate their awesomeness. Laecraft isn't extending the same courtesy, and only considers human life precious anyway. And thusly I say unto him, **** off.

Well yeah, instead of writting **** off you could've written that.

Xilizhra wrote...

It's not just about memorable moments; it couldn't have been, or fan calls wouldn't have brought them into ME2. Garrus and Tali come from distinct backgrounds alien to both Shepard and the players (this doesn't mean they can't be human; Miranda and Jack both pulled it off). Ashley and Kaidan needed more to make them stand out more, and didn't get it.

Neither did Tali or Garrus. Their main asset in ME1 was being colorful aliens. ME2 is a different story, characters get presented better overall (yet they were still exceptions, Grunt for example whos presentation didn't help the fact he wasn't a great character).

LiquidGrape wrote...

Very classy, by the way.

As classy as Xilizhra's **** off?

[DoNotIngest]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Also, despite what you may think, tali and garrus made no impacts. Tehy've done nothing in the overall picture. Well Tali's FATHER made an impact by almost sending his people to war with the Geth, but she had no part in it besides covering it up. Garrus Went to Omega after he got fed up with C-Sec (again) and Tali just does random migrant fleet work until Shepard shows up. whoopty friggen do. They could be so much better than they are, garrus could be a high ranking Turian military officer and Tali oculd be preparing to take her fathers seat on the admiralty board, but no, they aren't doing that, they're riding sheaprd's coat tails.

I'll take it you mean post-ME1, though you didn't say that; Tali is absolutely plot-essential in ME1, otherwise Shepard wouldn't be a Spectre, so no badassery to take down Saren.



As for potential, Tali's daughter-of-an-Admiral status may not be worth anything anymore, but she's still the most well-renowned Quarian in the galaxy, a hero to her people (If not their politicians) and the only Quarian to, *maybe*, work with the Geth. She could prove instrumental in getting the Quarians to trust in an alliance with the Geth. And 50,000 is a big f*cking deal, even if they were all shuttles (Apparently not, Migrant Fleet Orbital Strike sound familiar?).


Garrus... Well, his race could at least maybe have Shep get him in a commanding position of part of a Turian Armada. Though, really, he has the most flimsy amount of use, along with the original ME1 human companions. Outside of Shep's personal badassery dispenser, of course.