299 réponses à ce sujet

[Atmosfear3]

EA is not in the business of releasing games when they are ready. Pretty sure this should be common knowledge by now.

[Nerdage]

[Violation of Rule #3 removed.]

Oops. Sorry? Was only a joke.

Modifié par nerdage, 09 octobre 2011 - 08:52 .

[Firky]

Yikes. I can see both sides of this one. (edit: ninja'd - loosely related to what pinecone and terror were talking about a page back)

I'm a PC player (who hasn't owned a console since ColecoVision), and I've done RPGs since the first Ultima (well, with my dad, I was young). I totally can relate to the "PC elitist" POV, even if I don't necessarily agree with the way it always comes across online. PC gaming is totally something that needs to be prioritised and preserved, IMO. As are classic RPGs.

I found the marketing for DAII quite depressing, and there is a lengthy, angsty post on these boards somewhere around here, from about a year ago, with me calling DAII a "slap in the face."

But, having played DAII, and being warmed up to it over a period of time, I actually genuinely loved it. (With very few reservations.)

I guess I've come to accept that I really have very little insight into the business model that modern companies have to work with. Like, the industry has totally changed, thanks to tech, economic factors, audiences etc - in ways I know nothing about.

I certainly think RPG fans that have supported BioWare (and I am one, believe me) deserve to be a prioritised audience and that changing a series midway is disheartening. But, many PC gamers aren't always entirely model customers. (Call me on that, if you want, but I'm not going to elaborate on a topic that's not cool to discuss on these - or most, gaming - boards.)

The only way I feel I can approach the whole "PC gaming is dying issue" is to buy what I like, don't buy (and don't play) what I don't like, buy and try if I'm happy to take the risk for the price. I do feel comfortable providing feedback if I don't buy something, which is my current approach to Mark of the Assassin. (Having an actor in game finally stepped over my line.)

But, ultimatley, I guess I don't believe that BioWare has any obligations to anyone, but that (despite eventually loving DAII) many modern games being seen as an insult to PC gamers is a very real thing, and understandably so, rightly or wrongly.

What part does EA play in any of this? Frankly, I have no idea, and I'm still really surprised that people assume quite so much based on no information. If one of the Drs says whatever, I'm just tempted to believe it. They are the Drs, after all. (; a lot more smarter and knowledgeable than I)

Modifié par Firky, 09 octobre 2011 - 08:48 .

[Terror_K]

Firky wrote...

What part does EA play in any of this? Frankly, I have no idea, and I'm still really surprised that people assume quite so much based on no information. If one of the Drs says whatever, I'm just tempted to believe it. They are the Drs, after all. (; a lot more smarter and knowledgeable than I)

I just personally find it mighty co-incidental that about the time BioWare started going downhill, started pandering their games towards the mainstream and started disappointing me was pretty much dead on the time EA took over. And I'm looking back on this to a degree too, as I was one of the few in the beginning that rolled my eyes whenever EA got blamed for something, be it ME1's DRM, DAO's PC delay for the console releases, its questionable marketing, the brief move of the BioWare Store to being U.S.A. only just when the limited ME2 Citadel lithograph came out, ME2's more shooter/action oriented approach and overally mainstreamlining, etc.

And then there was Dragon Age 2.

Yeah, it's just really convenient that the two circumstances sync up so well. And I find it really hard to believe that a pre-EA BioWare would produce something as awful as DA2 and twist their own IP so much for the sake of mainstream pandering. If not, as much as I say "they aren't as good as BioWare" I'm actually happy that Obsidian made two of BioWare's key sequels, because KotOR II and NWN II were far better and more fitting/consistent sequels than DA2 was, and even ME2 for that matter.

[Morroian]

Terror_K wrote...

I just personally find it mighty co-incidental that about the time BioWare started going downhill, started pandering their games towards the mainstream 

See I would have said that happened with Kotor.

[TheJediSaint]

Terror_K wrote...

I just personally find it mighty co-incidental that about the time BioWare started going downhill.

Subjective statments are subjective.

[Il Divo]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

I just personally find it mighty co-incidental that about the time BioWare started going downhill.

Subjective statments are subjective.

This. While I consider Dragon Age 2 on the weaker end of Bioware games, I consider Mass Effect 2 one of my favorites, barring KotOR. I personally don't see the overall quality dropping.

[Il Divo]

Terror_K wrote...

Again, what's the point in creating an IP or setting out to create a particular series if you can't even remain consistent and true to the formula? How can anybody be a fan of anything if it lacks identity and is consistently well defined? People become fans of something because of what it is, not because it lacks identity and shifts and warps all the time. What's the point in becoming a fan of Dragon Age when it starts off as an epic fantasy RPG then becomes a cheap console hack'n'slash affair the next moment and then becomes an iPhone puzzle platform game with anime graphics the next? Whether its Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Jade Empire or whatever it is they're making, their series should remain true to itself and what it was supposed to be.

You do bring up a very good point, unfortunately there are always exceptions to every principle. For one, Dragon Age as a series didn't establish an identity with the first game, which had a generic Lord of the Rings vibe. The developers created a single game, which doesn't tell us anything about how they plan to implement a series. Ex: Final Fantasy games are never really "sequels" from a narrative perspective.

For another, not every game series has gotten by implementing the exact same "core" of a series. Legend of Zelda: Wind-Waker was drastically different in art style from its predecessors, which some fans took to mean that it was intended for children, but in other ways it still was an exemplar of Zelda games. In other cases, like World of Warcraft, developers have gotten away with completely changing a game's genre from RTS to RPG. Yet, WoW's got 12 million + subscribers at the moment.

As much as the "true to itself" argument might appeal to you, it's not wholely consistent with the success or failure of game development. Dragon Age 2 may have disappointed, but its "failure" is not simply a result of a perceived genre change, but that it fails to be an all around good game.

Modifié par Il Divo, 09 octobre 2011 - 01:09 .

[Heimdall]

Terror_K wrote...

ElitePinecone wrote...

That's business. It might suck, sure, but it's business. 

Unless the PC market suddens quadruples, not many developers are going to prioritise it.

Some of the decisions for the PC version of DA2, like removing the isometric camera, might've been a terrible idea, Not releasing a toolkit without a proper explanation isn't going to win many hearts. But Bioware has no obligations to anybody. If they go for a particular audience that's their perogative. 

Was the design and development of DA2 less than successful? Probably. Was it a personal attack on you, or on PC Gamers? No. Stop pretending that a business decision is a betrayal - Bioware don't owe you anything, and you aren't obligated to buy their games if you don't want to. 

So it's good business to annoy your existing fans and customers and make them feel unwanted and betrayed?

I'm sorry, I didn't realise that BioWare should be praised and worshipped for turning their backs on their old fans and for completely messing up one of their IPs and turning it into something completely different than how it was set up. While I'm bowing and scraping to them and buying their future games like a sheep, I should apologise to George Lucas I suppose as well.

Again, what's the point in creating an IP or setting out to create a particular series if you can't even remain consistent and true to the formula? How can anybody be a fan of anything if it lacks identity and is consistently well defined? People become fans of something because of what it is, not because it lacks identity and shifts and warps all the time. What's the point in becoming a fan of Dragon Age when it starts off as an epic fantasy RPG then becomes a cheap console hack'n'slash affair the next moment and then becomes an iPhone puzzle platform game with anime graphics the next? Whether its Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Jade Empire or whatever it is they're making, their series should remain true to itself and what it was supposed to be.

An IP is the unique setting.  In this case, Thedas.  If you are fan of the setting and the characters within it, the medium through which you enjoy it matters less.  Origins alone was marketed as a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate, not the entire franchise.  You clearly had a very different idea of what "being true to Dragon Age" was than I did, I thought they were.  Nor do I think a sequel should be bound to following the patterns of its predeccessor, and clearly they don't need to be as Il Davo as elaborated.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 09 octobre 2011 - 01:31 .

[In Exile]

Terror_K wrote...
So it's good business to annoy your existing fans and customers and make them feel unwanted and betrayed?

No. But you're up a creek without a paddle when your so-called fanbase has a view of your company that's entirely divorced from reality. 

Bioware stopped making the games you think it made with KoTOR and NWN wasn't far removed from "betrayal". Here's a good one for you: "Premium Modules" = "pre-DLC". 

Again, what's the point in creating an IP or setting out to create a particular series if you can't even remain consistent and true to the formula?

What DA:O was in your head != what DA:O actually was. 

What's the point in becoming a fan of Dragon Age when it starts off as an epic fantasy RPG then becomes a cheap console hack'n'slash affair the next moment and then becomes an iPhone puzzle platform game with anime graphics the next? Whether its Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Jade Empire or whatever it is they're making, their series should remain true to itself and what it was supposed to be.

DA2 didn't change the gameplay mechanics on PC, even though it had a stupid camera implementation. It changed the artstyle and animations, but that's irrelevant to whether something is an RPG. And it removed races and added VO, which starts the epileptic what is an RPG debate none of us should touch with a 100 ft pole. 

But DA:O really just implemented the dialogue system, quest structure and general features of KoTOR, and KoTOR "dumbed down" every single RPG-feature (in your view) from BG/NWN with a better camera and control scheme for the PC version. 

Also, if anything is harming the PC market today it's the way developers and publishers are treating it: cheap ports, few exclusives or games truly made for the platform, draconian DRM with the need of constant internet connections, limited activations and forced registration, etc., forced services like Games for Windows LIVE, delayed releases, lack of advertising and sometimes lack of a Collectors Edition, etc. The publishers themselves are the ones holding it back, and only a few rare exceptions like Valve aren't (and funnily enough, the PC version of Portal 2 apparently slaughtered the console sales).

I have to say, your ability to rant is incredible. 

Modifié par In Exile, 09 octobre 2011 - 01:46 .

[Merci357]

Terror_K wrote...

And I find it really hard to believe that a pre-EA BioWare would produce something as awful as DA2 and twist their own IP so much for the sake of mainstream pandering.

Honestly? They did, it's called Jade Empire.
JE's "saving grace" is that it's no sequel, but a stand alone game. And as such, you take it for what it is, without streamlining. But just do an objective comparison between JE and DA2, and tell me, which of those two is far closer to your sacred traditional RPG.

Modifié par Merci357, 09 octobre 2011 - 03:19 .

[Il Divo]

Merci357 wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

And I find it really hard to believe that a pre-EA BioWare would produce something as awful as DA2 and twist their own IP so much for the sake of mainstream pandering.

Honestly? They did, it's called Jade Empire.
JE's "saving grace" is that it's no sequel, but a stand alone game. And as such, you take it for what it is, without streamlining. But just do an objective comparison between JE and DA2, and tell me, which of those two is far closer to your sacred traditional RPG.

If you want to be especially cruel, you could always mention Shattered Steel.

[addiction21]

Il Divo wrote...

If you want to be especially cruel, you could always mention Shattered Steel.

Hey thats my schtick I demand royalties. I prefer payment in waffles.

[Il Divo]

addiction21 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

If you want to be especially cruel, you could always mention Shattered Steel.

Hey thats my schtick I demand royalties. I prefer payment in waffles.

My apologies. What's the exchange rate between waffles and fried shrimp? Payment options are always nice.

Modifié par Il Divo, 09 octobre 2011 - 08:35 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Terror,

BioWare was always trying to be a Superstar. Apparently you missed all the quotes from the good Doctors about how GTA4 was an RPG and how they don't see themselves as RPG Makers.

EA just gave them the money to realize their business model.

[addiction21]

Il Divo wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

If you want to be especially cruel, you could always mention Shattered Steel.

Hey thats my schtick I demand royalties. I prefer payment in waffles.

My apologies. What's the exchange rate between waffles and fried shrimp? Payment options are always nice.

I did the Shattered Steel joke 2 pages ago... thats about 24 hours, carry the 7, move that 3, multiply by sunday... the square root of batter...
Screw it how about some waffle battered deep fried shrimp?

I just have always found it amusing with DA2 how some want to claim BioWare betrayed their most laoyle fanbase. It happened to be my first experiance with this group and it stood out in the hey day of giant walking robot combat games.
Maybe  I should of felt offeneded with MDK2 or BG. I didnt, I enjoyed them greatly.
Along comes KotoR, JE, Mass Effect are console exclusive games for their releases. Again being mostly a PC exclusive gamer (I gots a Wii) I was not happy.
I guess the point I am horribly trying to get across is that BioWare has never shown loaylty to a specific "fan"

[Il Divo]

addiction21 wrote...

I did the Shattered Steel joke 2 pages ago... thats about 24 hours, carry the 7, move that 3, multiply by sunday... the square root of batter...
Screw it how about some waffle battered deep fried shrimp?

Done and done. Expect it in a shipment next week, along with a year's supply of syrup.

I just have always found it amusing with DA2 how some want to claim BioWare betrayed their most laoyle fanbase. It happened to be my first experiance with this group and it stood out in the hey day of giant walking robot combat games.
Maybe  I should of felt offeneded with MDK2 or BG. I didnt, I enjoyed them greatly.
Along comes KotoR, JE, Mass Effect are console exclusive games for their releases. Again being mostly a PC exclusive gamer (I gots a Wii) I was not happy.
I guess the point I am horribly trying to get across is that BioWare has never shown loaylty to a specific "fan"

I fully agree with this. Even if you look at any RPG past Baldur's Gate 1, Bioware began going with less and less stat-focus, especially once we reach the Jade Empire/Mass Effect iteration. Coming from that perspective, it's hard to see how Bioware has performed some cruel betrayal, being swept away by the evil corporation of EA. They're making games, and altering them as it suits them. Dragon Age 2 (for myself) is just an experience where it didn't work quite as well, despite being enjoyable.

[TheJediSaint]

With over six months since the game was released, pretty much all the fair criticisms of DA2 hava already been stated. Complaining about how Bioware has "betrayed" some made-up ideal or has been corrupted by EA is nothing more than hyperbolic whining.

[ElitePinecone]

Il Divo wrote...
it's hard to see how Bioware has performed some cruel betrayal, being swept away by the evil corporation of EA. They're making games, and altering them as it suits them. Dragon Age 2 (for myself) is just an experience where it didn't work quite as well, despite being enjoyable.

Bingo. Using apocalyptic language about treason and pandering is going way too far. The game might not have worked so well, but it's no reason to start predicting the death of the RPG, or of Bioware. 

If future games and content is better, which is likely, then yay. If not, consumers will decide the way they always do, and the experiment won't have been a success. 

[Bryy_Miller]

Here's yet another log for the fire:

Baldur's Gate (and Neverwinter Nights) were based on a pre-existing rule-set. BioWare literally had to follow the dotted lines of the D&D system.

Now they are making original IPs with original rule-sets, and it's some boogeyman's fault that their games are not like what they used to make?

[Il Divo]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Here's yet another log for the fire:

Baldur's Gate (and Neverwinter Nights) were based on a pre-existing rule-set. BioWare literally had to follow the dotted lines of the D&D system.

Now they are making original IPs with original rule-sets, and it's some boogeyman's fault that their games are not like what they used to make?

Great point. Just look at every Bioware game ever made. All their "complex" RPG rule-sets have been ripped right out of DnD, excluding DA:O. Or they've made extremely simple rule sets (Jade Empire, Mass Effect 2). Imo, Bioware themselves have never really done a great job of designing in-depth RPG systems.

Modifié par Il Divo, 09 octobre 2011 - 11:44 .

[addiction21]

Il Divo wrote...

Great point. Just look at every Bioware game ever made. All their "complex" RPG rule-sets have been ripped right out of DnD, excluding DA:O. Or they've made extremely simple rule sets (Jade Empire, Mass Effect 2). Imo, Bioware themselves have never really done a great job of designing in-depth RPG systems.

Hell I think it is a stretch to call DA:o's system complex.

[In Exile]

addiction21 wrote...

Hell I think it is a stretch to call DA:o's system complex.

I recall the old days of it being called a WoW clone and an insult to BG. The regenerating health/mana, the lack of meaningfully differentiated skills, the fact that warriors had acrobatic damage abilities... 

[Estherra Drack]

It's starting to smell like sheep here.

The question is which kind of sheep?



This kind?







or this kind?

Modifié par Estherra Drack, 10 octobre 2011 - 08:45 .