299 réponses à ce sujet

[jds1bio]

I'm glad someone brought up this article, because it once again has the "delight and surprise" quote that I've heard far too many times.

But besides addressing the rushed stuff and other oft-cited criticisms, what I'd rather know is this (and these are not gotcha questions):

- how many playthroughs of DA2 did the doctors complete?

- what was their favorite "build" to play?

- which NPC (not companion) would they liked to have seen more of in the game?

- did any of their DA:O choices end up not working properly in DA2?

- what feature or aspect could stand to be most improved?

Modifié par jds1bio, 05 octobre 2011 - 02:10 .

[Veex]

Morroian wrote...

IMHO its not remotely hack and slash at least not on the higher difficulty levels where I am required to tactically juggle my party's abilities and re-position them. Thats not hack and slash. ANd itrs even moreso on Legacy where BW have stated they took a lot more care with encounter design.

I've got to second this. Playing on Nightmare in DA2 is substantially more difficult and tactical than the equivalent in DA:O in my opinion. That said, the removal of friendly fire on all of the lower difficulties creates a substantial gap in how the selection of party abilities work. Not being able to spam AoEs makes fights both last longer and emphasizes utilizing all party members for positioning and CC chains etc...

I think not having FF on Hard, even if at a significantly reduced penalty, really poorly represents how satisfying the tactical side of DA2's combat can feel.  

[ElitePinecone]

Terror_K wrote...
big snip

I can kinda understand where you're coming from here, but I don't really share the pessimism (nor the contempt of DA2, for that matter).

For all its repetition, bugs, often wonky combat and uninspiring main story, DA2 has some genuinely shining moments of characterisation and wonder in many of its side quests. It suffers badly from a lack of quality (and content, for that matter), the protagonist seems detached from their own story and the lack of environments is deplorable, yes - but it had some strengths too. 

If DA3 indeed pays lip-service to dealing with criticism while making renewed overtones to a mystical wider consumer base through streamlining or button-awesome, then yes, I'll probably give it a wide berth. If the drop in overall quality and glaring absence of content persists, then I'll avoid it. If the inane marketing campaigns based on superficial words like "visceral" continues, then I'd probably find the nearest desk and faceplant it. 

But I'm not so beholden to a reified golden age of RPG wonder to ignore a game based on its mechanics alone, especially given many of the story threads that were (finally) started in the past, oh, five minutes of DA2. If DA3 is of much higher quality generally, and if Bioware takes the criticism seriously, then I have evey confidence that they can do it brilliantly. 

If, somehow, things fall apart and DA3 is a rushed mess, or targeted at entirely the wrong player base, consumers will decide with their wallets, so to speak. The odd (Quixotic?) quest to appeal to non-RPG lovers with an epic fantasy RPG hasn't exactly been a critical success, so we'll see what happens. 

[Gotholhorakh]

Firky wrote...
Sure, it's hack and slash if that's how you want to play it.

It's hack and slash if that's not how you want to play it, too.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 05 octobre 2011 - 06:04 .

[Atakuma]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Firky wrote...
Sure, it's hack and slash if that's how you want to play it.

It's hack and slash if that's not how you want to play it, too.

It might be on the consoles, but the pc version definately isn't.

[Bestyj669]

Atakuma wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...
It's hack and slash if that's not how you want to play it, too.

It might be on the consoles, but the pc version definately isn't. 

What makes pc version different then ? 

[Atakuma]

Bestyj669 wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...
It's hack and slash if that's not how you want to play it, too.

It might be on the consoles, but the pc version definately isn't. 

What makes pc version different then ? 

It's auto attack only, so there's no clicking or button mashing to perform basic attacks .

[FedericoV]

Bestyj669 wrote...

What makes pc version different then ? 

Autoattack I suppose. But trying to be more objective: the game is designed as an hybrid between hack and slash and party based rpgs for normal and casual level of difficulty. Clicking only awesome skills button or clicking button for each attack makes a difference but not THAT difference if actual tactics does not come in to play. The necessity to consider tactics and party interactions is important only on hard and nightmare. May I add that the idea to attach the game's style to its level of difficulty (or platform) is completely wrong and shortsighted? It only waters down the gameplay without allowing that kind of simplicity and intuitivity that fans of actions games like. 

@OP: EA has not to tell Bioware what to do because the docs allready know... they do not need Riccitiello's help...

Modifié par FedericoV, 05 octobre 2011 - 07:26 .

[Bestyj669]

Hmmm ... It's off/on on ps3. Whether it works different then it's pc I have no idea.

I still fail to see how that doesn't make it hack & slash for the pc though.

Nightmare only worked for me up until the assassins came to play. Either I'm not smart enough to find an effective counter to their stealth -> one hit the healer -> stealth, or there simply isn't one ...

[Ariella]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Firky wrote...
Sure, it's hack and slash if that's how you want to play it.

It's hack and slash if that's not how you want to play it, too.

Not really. The story isn't combat dependant. As was pointed out elsewhere if you stripped the story and character interactions out of DA2, you wouldn't have very much at all, where as strip out the story of Diablo there's minimal change. The combat may be tactically simple by your lights, but ithat doesn't make the game hack and slash.

[Morroian]

Bestyj669 wrote...

Hmmm ... It's off/on on ps3. Whether it works different then it's pc I have no idea.

I still fail to see how that doesn't make it hack & slash for the pc though.

Hack and slash is normally a click to attack diablo like game or button masher. DA2 has autoattack and is not at all like Diablo.

[Bryy_Miller]

Is it really that hard for some people to believe that BioWare just might put out a product they don't like, or even rush a product? Do we really need to make threads about it and dissect it? Do we really need to hate EA/Parent Company X that much?

Honestly, this is self-entitlement at its worst. Not every company is going make products or business decisions that everyone likes. It's not the end of the world. It's just how things go.

[Tatinger]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Terror_K wrote...
big snip

If DA3 is of much higher quality generally, and if Bioware takes the criticism seriously, then I have evey confidence that they can do it brilliantly. 

If, somehow, things fall apart and DA3 is a rushed mess, or targeted at entirely the wrong player base, consumers will decide with their wallets, so to speak. The odd (Quixotic?) quest to appeal to non-RPG lovers with an epic fantasy RPG hasn't exactly been a critical success, so we'll see what happens. 

I share the same sentiments and basically posted the same argument elsewhere:

Tatinger wrote...

I wonder what the tipping point is, though?  Will sales, or threatened lack thereof, for the third game alter their creative direction?  Is a company willing to concede to the will of the fans and thus give them power by having a say in the finished product?  Based on some of the reparations that were offered to those of us lobbying for continued support and bug fixes for DA:O, I'd say that there is every reason to believe that EAWare realizes that not listening to its fanbase is not a very good thing for the health of the franchise.

It'll be interesting to see how much they concede, though (I wonder if push came to shove if they'd do something as drastic as, say, throwing a fully voiced Warden back into the story or completely overhaul their game mechanics to get everyone on side again), but I have no doubts that there are changes coming...for the better.  Money talks and BioWare doesn't want its fans to walk.

I sincerely doubt that they haven't used DA2 as a learning experience and are willing to kill the golden goose, regardless of what everyone (or at least the vast majority of people) seem to want.  That's just not good business.

Modifié par Tatinger, 05 octobre 2011 - 09:03 .

[The Executioner]

I've read a few articles on DA3 generally what i've read is a bigger better game with more depth and customisation. I have not heard an out and out return to Origins in terms of game play. They is no official word on DA3 a complete 180 back to Origins is possible but unlikely. We don't know there is no DA3 at this point. .  Origins part 2 with updated graphics new story and characters would be the way to go.

Modifié par The Executioner, 06 octobre 2011 - 01:38 .

[Wintersembrace]

Wow every time i come to these forums i see more DA.2 bashing lol at the end of the day every one will have different likes and dislikes i for one dislike DA.2 how ever there where some aspects of the game i did like and would have like to have seem them expanded but over all the game was a let down.
Also about the metacritic/corruption that's a joke corruption exists at every level of life and the metacritic is not worth its weight in salt.
further more this whole EA/BW any one remember a company called Westwood Studios cause that where BW are heading i just hope when its death trows finally come the Bw staff that still believe in making game for gamers find a place that hold the same values

[Everwarden]

Honestly, that isn't something to be proud of. If EA was calling the shots, at least Bioware could honestly shift some of the blame for the less-than-stellar game that was DA2. If EA is letting them do whatever and they -chose- to create a rushed, sloppy mess of their own accord it doesn't speak very highly of them. 

Modifié par Everwarden, 05 octobre 2011 - 10:22 .

[The Executioner]

Everwarden wrote...

Honestly, that isn't something to be proud of. If EA was calling the shots, at least they could honestly shift some of the blame for the turd that was DA2. If EA is letting them do whatever and they -chose- to create a rushed, sloppy mess of their own accord it doesn't speak very highly of them. 

Try to be abit more tempered in your criticism of DA2 if i was a moderator and read what you wrote i'd ban ya. It should have been a better game but a sloppy turd C'mon man . I just started a new game there's some things i haven't tried yet in DA2 makeing potions and enchantment, i'm gonna try nightmare as well.

[Everwarden]

The Executioner wrote...
Try to be abit more tempered in your criticism of DA2 if i was a moderator and read what you wrote i'd ban ya.

I thought I was being charitable, honestly. But point taken, I'll put on the kid gloves. 

[Brockololly]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Is it really that hard for some people to believe that BioWare just might put out a product they don't like, or even rush a product? Do we really need to make threads about it and dissect it? Do we really need to hate EA/Parent Company X that much?

But by their own word, BioWare doesn't rush out products until they feel they're ready. Thats what Muzyka said not too long ago:

Q: Is that decision not to rush and to take your time a company rule?


Ray Muzyka: Yeah, very much. It's one of our core values and in the  time we've been at EA we've been very supported in that as well. The  great thing is we have a strong culture and a strong vision and values  as Bioware and we're part of a larger whole that has that strong vision  and culture as well. ..

So if we're going to take Muzyka at his word, not rushing products out the door is a core value for BioWare. So that doesn't really do much for everyone dismissing DA2's lack of quality with the whole "it was just rushed!" excuse.

Bryy_Miller wrote...
Honestly, this is self-entitlement at its worst. Not every company is going make products or business decisions that everyone likes. It's not the end of the world. It's just how things go.

Sure, but I think a great deal of the animosity towards DA2 is in part how the marketing/publisher seems to have their own feeling of self entitlement to the built in audience of the prior game in the franchise when making changes for the sequel. To the extent that maybe BioWare/EA thought it was a given that people that bought Origins would buy DA2. And it likely worked to a certain extent looking at the initially good sales of DA2, but then they dropped off a cliff.  And then the likes of Muzyka claim they were surprised at the reception to the game. 

Again, BioWare/EA can do whatever they want, but when they make half baked, radical changes to an already established game franchise and simultaneously act all shocked and aloof when people don't like it, I don't know what to say.

BioWare just seems like the're trying to have their cake and eat it too in terms of wanting to gladly take the $$$ of people who enjoyed Origins while not doing much in terms of their actions to build off of what Origins established. If they wanted to make an action game they should have left that to Jade Empire or have not tried to promote DA2 as a sequel, but rather a spinoff set in the DA universe. With DA2, BioWare just seemed grossly oout of touch with what a good number of people expected and wanted out of a sequel. And I think for many people disillusioned with DA2, they just don't trust BioWare to make another DAO like game again, no matter what they might say in interviews or on the forums.

Modifié par Brockololly, 05 octobre 2011 - 10:29 .

[Wintersembrace]

The Executioner wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

Honestly, that isn't something to be proud of. If EA was calling the shots, at least they could honestly shift some of the blame for the turd that was DA2. If EA is letting them do whatever and they -chose- to create a rushed, sloppy mess of their own accord it doesn't speak very highly of them. 

Try to be abit more tempered in your criticism of DA2 if i was a moderator and read what you wrote i'd ban ya. It should have been a better game but a sloppy turd C'mon man . I just started a new game there's some things i haven't tried yet in DA2 makeing potions and enchantment, i'm gonna try nightmare as well.

luck your not a mod then

[The Executioner]

You can go bash DA2 all you want just don't get the thread locked.

[Atakuma]

Brockololly wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Is it really that hard for some people to believe that BioWare just might put out a product they don't like, or even rush a product? Do we really need to make threads about it and dissect it? Do we really need to hate EA/Parent Company X that much?

But by their own word, BioWare doesn't rush out products until they feel they're ready. Thats what Muzyka said not too long ago:

Q: Is that decision not to rush and to take your time a company rule?


Ray Muzyka: Yeah, very much. It's one of our core values and in the  time we've been at EA we've been very supported in that as well. The  great thing is we have a strong culture and a strong vision and values  as Bioware and we're part of a larger whole that has that strong vision  and culture as well. ..

So if we're going to take Muzyka at his word, not rushing products out the door is a core value for BioWare. So that doesn't really do much for everyone dismissing DA2's lack of quality with the whole "it was just rushed!" excuse.

It was clearly rushed,  I don't know why you would take his word for it since theres plenty of evidence to the contrary.

[nuclearpengu1nn]

[JasmoVT]

There can be no doubt EA sets budgets and timeline. As to how to achieve them, of course they don't get involved in detail game design decisions. Look at the bios of the top execs, they have no gaming background, they are simply consumer product hucksters. They don't care a flop for the product except how many units they move at what margin. The CEO is from Sara Lee and there is no difference between computer games and pound cake in corporate eyes. How the game design gets butchere to meet budget and timeline is totally up to the Bioware folks.

[TRfore]

EA doesnt tell Bioware what to do?
Explain this then:
http://nexus404.com/...d-2012-bioware/
or this
http://www.joystiq.c...d-half-of-2009/