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[prothy]

Is there any word on if biotic powers in ME3 will work on Shields and barriers like in ME1 or will they keep the current formula?

If they will keep it, could it be possible to make the adept passive skill allow hitting shields and barriersas you level up in it? for example 0 points in the skill you cant hit targets with Shields and barriers , level 1 you can but with greatly reduced effectiveness and so on

i think this would be a good middle ground solution

[Juha81FIN]

As far as I know they will be sticking to the system from ME 2, there will be be no biotic power that can directly K.O./ affect kinetic barriers. But there will be options to evolve each power every time you get points to spend in skill trees, we'll see how when we get to play final game.

Modifié par Juha81FIN, 04 octobre 2011 - 01:07 .

[AlexMBrennan]

You can already hit shielded enemies with greatly reduced effectiveness, which is why nobody does it.
I hope that they keep the ME2 setting since a change would certainly lead to a another stupid retcon (Collector implants, perhaps, rolled out galaxy-wide in a couple of days?).

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

You can already hit shielded enemies with greatly reduced effectiveness, which is why nobody does it.
I hope that they keep the ME2 setting since a change would certainly lead to a another stupid retcon (Collector implants, perhaps, rolled out galaxy-wide in a couple of days?).

No need for a retcon as the codex never stated it to works against biotic powers.

[Robhuzz]

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

You can already hit shielded enemies with greatly reduced effectiveness, which is why nobody does it.
I hope that they keep the ME2 setting since a change would certainly lead to a another stupid retcon (Collector implants, perhaps, rolled out galaxy-wide in a couple of days?).

No need for a retcon as the codex never stated it to works against biotic powers.

This. Actually it's the exact opposite. There's no reason why Biotics wouldn't work against kinetic barriers since they only stop fast moving projectiles. Shields only stop bullets, not tech powers or biotics. Armor also shouldn't stop biotics but it does (Apart from warp of course). Doubt they'll be changing that either.

[Darkstar Aurora]

The only changes I think aught to be made regarding powers used against resistances are:
* increase the duration of the stagger effect
*increase the damage dealt to resistances by "non-damaging" powers (retaining the +50% bonus to barrier damage for biotics and shield damage for tech powers)
* Possibly list resistance damage numbers in ability description of "non-damaging" powers.

The other minor issues I feel are:
* Singularity should be able to hold and damage crawling/flying/heavy enemies with resistances the same way it can immobilize fully armored and barrier humanoid enemies.
* Stasis should not have immunity, either for sub-boss enemies or over time (though size and rank should reduce duration as normal)
* Shockwave (and Shepard's version of other biotics) should not have such a long "travel" time.

Beyond that I think the ME2 Biotic/power system is fine. In a standard difficulty ME2 game only elite and boss enemies have resistances at all, and they can be taken down relatively quickly once you are free to focus team fire and/or powers on them-- usually after minion rank enemies have been dealt with. This is an intentional aspect of combat encounter design in RPGs as a whole, since if you could control/paralyze/freeze/levitate the elite rank enemies from the start (even on a reduced duration) you would never bother using those powers on minions and combat would be a cakewalk. Since elite rank enemies have powers and weapons that make them a greater threat, and provide tactical leadership to minions, they need short term immunity from incapacitating powers. Unlike the arbitrary biotic/tech resistance of ME1, you actually KNOW when your powers will not function and have control over how long that protection lasts by your own actions.

Now if we refer to ME2 Insanity difficulty one should assume the player possesses a greater level of skill than before (i.e. shooting, map knowledge, flanking, effective use and selection of squad) and that they have many perks at their disposal (bonus weapons, supplementary bonus powers, resources, and retained level). I think THIS is the area where most concerns with ME2 biotics arise and I dont necessarily feel that it should change because a higher challenge mode is too...challenging.

[lazuli]

Darkstar Aurora wrote...
...I think the ME2 Biotic/power system is fine. In a standard difficulty ME2 game only elite and boss enemies have resistances at all, and they can be taken down relatively quickly once you are free to focus team fire and/or powers on them-- usually after minion rank enemies have been dealt with. This is an intentional aspect of combat encounter design in RPGs as a whole, since if you could control/paralyze/freeze/levitate the elite rank enemies from the start (even on a reduced duration) you would never bother using those powers on minions and combat would be a cakewalk. Since elite rank enemies have powers and weapons that make them a greater threat, and provide tactical leadership to minions, they need short term immunity from incapacitating powers. Unlike the arbitrary biotic/tech resistance of ME1, you actually KNOW when your powers will not function and have control over how long that protection lasts by your own actions.

Now if we refer to ME2 Insanity difficulty one should assume the player possesses a greater level of skill than before (i.e. shooting, map knowledge, flanking, effective use and selection of squad) and that they have many perks at their disposal (bonus weapons, supplementary bonus powers, resources, and retained level). I think THIS is the area where most concerns with ME2 biotics arise and I dont necessarily feel that it should change because a higher challenge mode is too...challenging.

Brilliant.

In other news, there has been word of armor-piercing evolution options for at least one power (Throw).

[Darkstar Aurora]

In terms of "why" biotics do not effortlessly bypass resistances:

Throw, Pull, Slam, and Shockwave (and some aspects of Singularity and Charge) utilize the telekinesis discipline of Biotics. That means they use mass-lowering fields to levitate or impel objects.

Kinetic barriers are mass-raising fields. They are generated by a combat VI or a biotic's concentration, and thus they can be created in response to whatever circumstances or parameters are programmed into VI for the suit (shields) or biotic amp (barrier). If a temporarily created mass-lowering field created by a biotic can normally throw a human soldier, then a temporary mass-raising field projected behind them can catch the soldier as they fall into it. The soldier is hurled slightly (the stagger effect) and a portion of their shield generator's power cell has been expended (the minor shield damage).

The same principle applies when used on a biotic enemy who is passively sustaining a barrier, except that the throw effect deals +50% more damage to the barrier than it would to shields because biotics are more evenly matched against each other, whereas a shield generator would replenish its power cell faster than a neuro-chemical biotic.

In terms of Warp, it deals its normal damage to shields but double damage to barriers and armor. This is because a suit of armor is harder to replace than a temporary shield, and because a biotic defender in severe pain cannot concentrate on their barriers, whereas an array of shield emitters are not easily "distracted" and require other means to effectively deal with them (i.e. Overloading the power cell itself).

Armor blocks biotics either because the suit has momentum dampening upgrades or because of sheer mass or the biology of the creature.

In terms of Stasis, it is a mass raising field and therefore it cannot be impeded by high mass armor or mass-raising barriers...in fact such resistances should actually make stasis MORE potent.

[The Spamming Troll]

i hate enemy protections more then anything in the world. im ashamed for bioware that they had to implement something like enemy protections to make the game challenging. if i ran into enemy protections on the streets, id punch it in the balls.

[sevach]

Adept fans...
drop this, this has been said about a million times.

[RyuujinZERO]

*cough* Guys, I hate to break the worry-fest...

But ME3 biotic powers *don't* work like ME2 biotic powers (and tech powers). It's already been confirmed that control effects in ME3 have a reduced form when hitting protected foes.

For example cryo blast will snap freeze unprotected foes and increase their vulnerability like it did in ME2 however if you hit a protected foe, that foe will have their movement speed reduced for a short period whereas in ME2, the cryo blast would've piddled on their protection but otherwise been entirely ineffectual.

[Someone With Mass]

RyuujinZERO wrote...

*cough* Guys, I hate to break the worry-fest...

But ME3 biotic powers *don't* work like ME2 biotic powers (and tech powers). It's already been confirmed that control effects in ME3 have a reduced form when hitting protected foes.

For example cryo blast will snap freeze unprotected foes and increase their vulnerability like it did in ME2 however if you hit a protected foe, that foe will have their movement speed reduced for a short period whereas in ME2, the cryo blast would've piddled on their protection but otherwise been entirely ineffectual.

Cryo Blast is not one of Adept's powers, though.

[SynheKatze]

Darkstar Aurora wrote...

In terms of "why" biotics do not effortlessly bypass resistances:

Throw, Pull, Slam, and Shockwave (and some aspects of Singularity and Charge) utilize the telekinesis discipline of Biotics. That means they use mass-lowering fields to levitate or impel objects.

Kinetic barriers are mass-raising fields. They are generated by a combat VI or a biotic's concentration, and thus they can be created in response to whatever circumstances or parameters are programmed into VI for the suit (shields) or biotic amp (barrier). If a temporarily created mass-lowering field created by a biotic can normally throw a human soldier, then a temporary mass-raising field projected behind them can catch the soldier as they fall into it. The soldier is hurled slightly (the stagger effect) and a portion of their shield generator's power cell has been expended (the minor shield damage).

The same principle applies when used on a biotic enemy who is passively sustaining a barrier, except that the throw effect deals +50% more damage to the barrier than it would to shields because biotics are more evenly matched against each other, whereas a shield generator would replenish its power cell faster than a neuro-chemical biotic.

In terms of Warp, it deals its normal damage to shields but double damage to barriers and armor. This is because a suit of armor is harder to replace than a temporary shield, and because a biotic defender in severe pain cannot concentrate on their barriers, whereas an array of shield emitters are not easily "distracted" and require other means to effectively deal with them (i.e. Overloading the power cell itself).

Armor blocks biotics either because the suit has momentum dampening upgrades or because of sheer mass or the biology of the creature.

In terms of Stasis, it is a mass raising field and therefore it cannot be impeded by high mass armor or mass-raising barriers...in fact such resistances should actually make stasis MORE potent.

I think I just love you. However, it will not stop moaners from moaning, oh well.

[Sailears]

Darkstar Aurora wrote...

In terms of "why" biotics do not effortlessly bypass resistances:

Throw, Pull, Slam, and Shockwave (and some aspects of Singularity and Charge) utilize the telekinesis discipline of Biotics. That means they use mass-lowering fields to levitate or impel objects.

Kinetic barriers are mass-raising fields. They are generated by a combat VI or a biotic's concentration, and thus they can be created in response to whatever circumstances or parameters are programmed into VI for the suit (shields) or biotic amp (barrier). If a temporarily created mass-lowering field created by a biotic can normally throw a human soldier, then a temporary mass-raising field projected behind them can catch the soldier as they fall into it. The soldier is hurled slightly (the stagger effect) and a portion of their shield generator's power cell has been expended (the minor shield damage).

The same principle applies when used on a biotic enemy who is passively sustaining a barrier, except that the throw effect deals +50% more damage to the barrier than it would to shields because biotics are more evenly matched against each other, whereas a shield generator would replenish its power cell faster than a neuro-chemical biotic.

In terms of Warp, it deals its normal damage to shields but double damage to barriers and armor. This is because a suit of armor is harder to replace than a temporary shield, and because a biotic defender in severe pain cannot concentrate on their barriers, whereas an array of shield emitters are not easily "distracted" and require other means to effectively deal with them (i.e. Overloading the power cell itself).

Armor blocks biotics either because the suit has momentum dampening upgrades or because of sheer mass or the biology of the creature.

In terms of Stasis, it is a mass raising field and therefore it cannot be impeded by high mass armor or mass-raising barriers...in fact such resistances should actually make stasis MORE potent.

I like this. Very succinct explanation.

Edit: oops, same thing quoted 2 posts in a row, sorry! (but it's worth it)

Modifié par Curunen, 04 octobre 2011 - 06:52 .

[Homey C-Dawg]

Nice post Darkstar Aurora.

My canon Shepard is an adept and I never really had a problem with the protections everyone has on insanity mode. Adept's can rip through anything unshielded with ease, including barriers and armor, as Darkstar stated. Shields are the one thing they have only a soft counter for (SMG) instead of a hard counter like overload, enery drain, or disrupter ammo.

Adept has a nice tricks to get around this though in the form of warp explosions. While the SMG is not so good for stripping defense after defense, it's quite easy to strip one enemies defense with it. Because adept has singularity, pull, and warp, they have the advantage of being the only class who can set up their own warp bombs without needing a squadmate to pull like sentinel does. Stripping the defense of one enemy (preferably one in the center of a group) allows the adept to pull him and warp bomb him very quickly, causing all surrounding enemies to lose their sheilds (usually knocking them down too). Once their shields are down, adept can make short work of them with the adepts excessive CC powers.

Some people may take issue with this method for whatever reason, but it's ridiculously effective in the majority of situations throughout ME2. I am happy however that it sounds like in ME3 biotic powers will have a reduced effect against shields instead of a simple stagger, though the warp explosion method will probably get nerfed as a result for balance.

[Aumata]

Why can't anyone ever understand it is a gameplay mechanic. There are mods that are active with out the kinetic barrier off. The armor goes out the window when you have animals that are resist powers without the explanations of the armor upgrades. Just a gameplay mechanic can we move on now.

[Zakatak757]

What is the difference between shields and barriers? Canon-wise.

Do barriers only stop kinetic energy, while shields stop radiation energy aswell (lasers/phasic rounds)?

[Homey C-Dawg]

Zakatak757 wrote...

What is the difference between shields and barriers? Canon-wise.

Do barriers only stop kinetic energy, while shields stop radiation energy aswell (lasers/phasic rounds)?

From a gameplay point of view I think they do the same basic thing and just have different weaknesses. Barriers must stop things like radiation too since character with barriers instead of shields don't seem to have trouble in places like derelic reaper or Haestrom. I haven't noticed barrier'd Shepard taking any different damage from different weapon types as a shielded Shepard, unlike enemies. I could be wrong about that though.

Modifié par Homey C-Dawg, 04 octobre 2011 - 09:51 .

[Stardusk78]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i hate enemy protections more then anything in the world. im ashamed for bioware that they had to implement something like enemy protections to make the game challenging. if i ran into enemy protections on the streets, id punch it in the balls.

Not you again...and again no suggestion on what BW can do.

[Captain Crash]

Curunen wrote...

Darkstar Aurora wrote...

In terms of "why" biotics do not effortlessly bypass resistances:

*snip*

I like this. Very succinct explanation.

Edit: oops, same thing quoted 2 posts in a row, sorry! (but it's worth it)

I like it too, however the problem often is when you get any enemy into just its health meter (which is when Biotics become effective) then the fight is almost over anyway.  Depleting the health bar is very fast and its often just as quick to shoot the enemy as it is to use a power. 

I was disappointed I was using my adept virtually as a soldier for much of ME2.  It is very easy to do.  Im not asking that the adept suddenly become overpowered, but I think a greater effect needs to be felt of armour and shields sometimes.

Modifié par Captain Crash, 04 octobre 2011 - 10:25 .

[Homey C-Dawg]

Captain Crash wrote...

Curunen wrote...

Darkstar Aurora wrote...

In terms of "why" biotics do not effortlessly bypass resistances:

*snip*

I like this. Very succinct explanation.

Edit: oops, same thing quoted 2 posts in a row, sorry! (but it's worth it)

I like it too, however the problem often is when you get any enemy into just its health meter (which is when Biotics become effective) then the fight is almost over anyway.  Depleting the health bar is very fast and its often just as quick to shoot the enemy as it is to use a power. 

I was disappointed I was using my adept virtually as a soldier for much of ME2.  It is very easy to do.  Im not asking that the adept suddenly become overpowered, but I think a greater effect needs to be felt of armour and shields sometimes.

Try the warp bomb method I mention a few posts up. Basically instead of quickly killing an enemy once it's shields are down (which is easy, your right) you use the unshielded enemy as a tool to drop everyone elses (or most of them) shields all at once. Adept is the easiers class to beat the game with on insanity without firing a single shot if used correctly.

[Captain Crash]

Indeed warp bomb is effective. But its only one power and your forced to use it as a combo with another squad mate unless your a high level with a quicker cooldown. It also can get montonous as there is limited variety using the same move. All other biotics are more or less useless (they stagger back for perhaps a second) unless the enemy has the health bar, which as I said is the end of the battle where the other methods are just as effective.

Im not asking to throw a fully shielded opponent. I just hope it does something a little more then a tiny knockback sometimes.

[Homey C-Dawg]

Captain Crash wrote...

Indeed warp bomb is effective. But its only one power and your forced to use it as a combo with another squad mate unless your a high level with a quicker cooldown. It also can get montonous as there is limited variety using the same move. All other biotics are more or less useless (they stagger back for perhaps a second) unless the enemy has the health bar, which as I said is the end of the battle where the other methods are just as effective.

Im not asking to throw a fully shielded opponent. I just hope it does something a little more then a tiny knockback sometimes.

Peronally I like the powerful combo method as opposed to spamming a signature power like adrenaline rush or charge (not that spamming charge isn't fun of course). Adept seems to be the class which the most effective way to play it doesn't involve spamming it's signature power.

I agree though that I would like throwing shielded enemies to at least knock them down, and pull/singularity to lift enemies at least a little bit. Throw and shockwave in particular becomes almost useless on higher difficulties, and it would be nice if they still did at least something useful.

[The Spamming Troll]

Stardusk78 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i hate enemy protections more then anything in the world. im ashamed for bioware that they had to implement something like enemy protections to make the game challenging. if i ran into enemy protections on the streets, id punch it in the balls.

Not you again...and again no suggestion on what BW can do.

ive offered more suggestions then you can wrap arpund your little brain. numerouse people have suggested numerous different approaches. its really not difficult to do. again, do you think enemy protections are the ONLY WAY to make a game challenging?

plain and simple its a mechanic that makes you use your abilities less. thats not what i want, im not sure why anyone would actually WANT that.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 04 octobre 2011 - 11:00 .

[RedCaesar97]

Captain Crash wrote...
I like it too, however the problem often is when you get any enemy into just its health meter (which is when Biotics become effective) then the fight is almost over anyway.  Depleting the health bar is very fast and its often just as quick to shoot the enemy as it is to use a power. 

I disagree with that. Sinosleep actually started a thread almost a year ago that showed that enemies actually have more health than defenses, and that powers and guns gain damage bonuses to defenses and not to health. Thread can be found here:
http://social.biowar...3/index/5630902

It actually takes much longer to shoot most enemy's health down to 0 with an SMG than it does to shoot the enemy's shield off with an SMG.