127 réponses à ce sujet

[The Spamming Troll]

unfringed wrote...

Point
-------
Your head.

ME2's protection system is actually a rather clever way to increase the challenge without insane enemy HP.

I'm curious as to what you actually think the protection system is but an extended three part HP system that has various resistances to various powers and weapons.

hmmm, im suprised we havent met before. i agree with you, but theres alot of dense people here who only apreciate exactly what bioware does, nothing more, nothing less. doesnt even matter if it can be done better, theyll simply refuse to believe itll work. its surely been a long year and a half for me around here.

[Whatever42]

Thought the system in ME2 was great. Sure, some tweaks could probably make it better and new powers would be fun but adept is my favorite ME2 class easily, even on suicide.

[littlezack]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

unfringed wrote...

Point
-------
Your head.

ME2's protection system is actually a rather clever way to increase the challenge without insane enemy HP.

I'm curious as to what you actually think the protection system is but an extended three part HP system that has various resistances to various powers and weapons.

hmmm, im suprised we havent met before. i agree with you, but theres alot of dense people here who only apreciate exactly what bioware does, nothing more, nothing less. doesnt even matter if it can be done better, theyll simply refuse to believe itll work. its surely been a long year and a half for me around here.

Yeah. People having a different opinion than you is such a pain, isn't it?

[Shepard the Leper]

unfringed wrote...

I'm curious as to what you actually think the protection system is but an extended three part HP system that has various resistances to various powers and weapons.

Which is vastly superior to the health-only system of ME1 (shields are blue health, without any purpose).

So you think mindlessly saying "you can't use this power on this guy because we said so" is a better option than designing the levels around the fact that Shep can freeze, throw, and burn them?

Hell, even a mana-type system would have done a lot to balance biotics, to keep the player from spamming singularities everywhere.

Have you ever tried to Lift a drone in ME1? Used Singularity on a Colossus? In ME1 you cannot know which power works (and which evolution you need). In ME2 the protection system makes is perfectly clear which powers are best used AND you can use ALL powers against ALL enemies (you can Pull a YMIR as soon as you've removed its shield and armor). That's a better system.

Mana WTF. Go play a fantasy RPG with Mages and Warriors if that's your thing. Which game that uses a mana-system has restrictions anyway? In most such games you'll have an unlimited supply of potions, making your mana pool nothing more than a boring / tedious micro-managing sytem. That's not what I'm looking for.

The 'mana' could be simple fatigue or energy, recharging over time or after eating some rations or snack bars. That's hardly lore breaking, seeing as alliance biotics have to consume 4500 calories a day to cover the energy expenditure of using their powers. Same deal as sprinting.

Recharging health sucks, but recharging mana is great? That doesn't make sense.

Not really. It doesn't have to be perfectly tuned to every character. Just designed to where someone with a cyro field or singularity couldn't tie up every NPC.

Huh? First you're saying it sucks that you cannot use all powers on all enemies. And now you're proposing a random system in which some powers do work against some enemies whilst others do not. You're starting to smell like a troll.

It's not hard to balance it, and it's certainly less gamey than nonsensical global cooldowns and absolute resistances.

Global cooldown is crucial for the ME combat system and there are no absolute resistances in ME2 (there are in ME1 btw).

Sure. At this point all I'm doing is defending my views on ME2, which is a fun enough of a game, but still a downgrade from what they could have had if they had fixed the issues with ME1.

ME2 is a massive upgrade. You may not like what they did to the combat system, but ME2 is an actual shooter-rpg hybrid (ME1 isn't). In ME1 you activate one or two abilities and you've won the day, all you need to do is shoot down harmless enemies. In ME2 you have to use powers and weapons combined and mix them up to be effective. In ME1 you have to make only one "tactical" decision before the fight starts; in ME2 you have to make tactical decisions every couple seconds.

ME is game that tries to combine shooter and rpg-ish special abilities. If you don't like the shooting part - ME isn't a game for you. Adepts are soldiers who fight with guns. They have their biotic powers to back them up in battle. They are not staff-wielding mages who kill everything with magic. It's beyond me why people consider powers that are not really useful straight away to be crap. They only seem to understand the gameplay mechanic "use power to beat the enemy and then shoot to kill". The option to "shoot the enemy first and then use abilities to take them out quickly" is obviously too complicated.

[The Spamming Troll]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

unfringed wrote...

I'm curious as to what you actually think the protection system is but an extended three part HP system that has various resistances to various powers and weapons.

Which is vastly superior to the health-only system of ME1 (shields are blue health, without any purpose).

So you think mindlessly saying "you can't use this power on this guy because we said so" is a better option than designing the levels around the fact that Shep can freeze, throw, and burn them?

Hell, even a mana-type system would have done a lot to balance biotics, to keep the player from spamming singularities everywhere.

Have you ever tried to Lift a drone in ME1? Used Singularity on a Colossus? In ME1 you cannot know which power works (and which evolution you need). In ME2 the protection system makes is perfectly clear which powers are best used AND you can use ALL powers against ALL enemies (you can Pull a YMIR as soon as you've removed its shield and armor). That's a better system.

Mana WTF. Go play a fantasy RPG with Mages and Warriors if that's your thing. Which game that uses a mana-system has restrictions anyway? In most such games you'll have an unlimited supply of potions, making your mana pool nothing more than a boring / tedious micro-managing sytem. That's not what I'm looking for.

The 'mana' could be simple fatigue or energy, recharging over time or after eating some rations or snack bars. That's hardly lore breaking, seeing as alliance biotics have to consume 4500 calories a day to cover the energy expenditure of using their powers. Same deal as sprinting.

Recharging health sucks, but recharging mana is great? That doesn't make sense.

Not really. It doesn't have to be perfectly tuned to every character. Just designed to where someone with a cyro field or singularity couldn't tie up every NPC.

Huh? First you're saying it sucks that you cannot use all powers on all enemies. And now you're proposing a random system in which some powers do work against some enemies whilst others do not. You're starting to smell like a troll.

It's not hard to balance it, and it's certainly less gamey than nonsensical global cooldowns and absolute resistances.

Global cooldown is crucial for the ME combat system and there are no absolute resistances in ME2 (there are in ME1 btw).

Sure. At this point all I'm doing is defending my views on ME2, which is a fun enough of a game, but still a downgrade from what they could have had if they had fixed the issues with ME1.

ME2 is a massive upgrade. You may not like what they did to the combat system, but ME2 is an actual shooter-rpg hybrid (ME1 isn't). In ME1 you activate one or two abilities and you've won the day, all you need to do is shoot down harmless enemies. In ME2 you have to use powers and weapons combined and mix them up to be effective. In ME1 you have to make only one "tactical" decision before the fight starts; in ME2 you have to make tactical decisions every couple seconds.

ME is game that tries to combine shooter and rpg-ish special abilities. If you don't like the shooting part - ME isn't a game for you. Adepts are soldiers who fight with guns. They have their biotic powers to back them up in battle. They are not staff-wielding mages who kill everything with magic. It's beyond me why people consider powers that are not really useful straight away to be crap. They only seem to understand the gameplay mechanic "use power to beat the enemy and then shoot to kill". The option to "shoot the enemy first and then use abilities to take them out quickly" is obviously too complicated.

i love how people who think ME2 is great, can only compare it to ME1s obviouse flaws. enemy defenses in ME2 protect shepard WORSE then health does. if health is so much tougher to take down, whats the point of adding enemy protections, other then rock-paper-scissors powers, and eliminationg the majorty of abilities in the game?

when i played ME1, i didnt need an explanation why basic lift couldnt lift a collosi. if was a frickin collossi, and i had basic lift as a level 8 character. it definately could do for some more explaing, like why i needed atleast advanced throw to effect the krogan on therum. but ive seen numerouse posts about proposing an ability system that can be "evolved" into abilities that work on "everything." i surely havent seen anyone requesting to use abilities less, which is basically the sole reason enemy protections exist.

im not exactly sure what you mean by absolute resistances, but when im playing an adept on insanity, i feel nothing but impotent. im not satisfied with a half second stagger when i use an ability called heavy throw, andi really wont be impressed in a game that featuers evolutions, in which i can only cause a half second stagger as well. playing ME2 i wonder why im leveling my other abilities("my other abilities" its that pathetic, i only consider warp, singularity, and stasis as actually abilities. do i have backup abilities, to my back up abilities. great. anyways.), when basic throw does the same then master through does on a protected enemy.

i dont think biotics, or any ability hampered by protections, should be considered "backup" options. thats like saying the force is only used for childs play. the game isnt complicated. its the EASIEST SHOOTER i have ever played. the AI is laughable, the game features the most basic concepts of a so called shooter in any game ever made........ah, what im trying to say is the complaints arent becasue "we suck at playing videogames." its about the enjoyment of such videogames. unless, you actually think rock paper scissors is hard? ....man its too easy to crap on ME2s "great(compared to ME1, right?)" combat.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 06 octobre 2011 - 02:42 .

[MELTOR13]

@Spamming

"its about the enjoyment of such videogames."

Bing bing bing. Ever think that some people, you know, actually enjoy the protection system that ME2 offers? Just because you hate it doesn't mean that others don't enjoy it. Is your enjoyment worth more than others? If you didn't act like such a **** people might actually listen to what you say, you know.

[The Spamming Troll]

i come across like a dick? i think your confusing me ripping on ME2, with being mean. if i actually am acting like dick ill have to lighten up then.

youll enjoy any challegne. ME2 offers a really really lame attempt at a challenge. its fit for some, but not for a few(and i mean that in game for some classes, and out of game for some people). you have sene and you knowthe difference in gameplay the adept faces when you change the difficulty from vet to hardcore, so how can you deny that such a "problem" doesnt exist?

the game would be better for the both of us if enemy protections/abilties/ difficulties were implemented better.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 06 octobre 2011 - 02:51 .

[Ieldra]

I have two problems with biotics and the protection system:

(1) Lore/gameplay segregation. It makes sense that telekinetic powers don't work against shields, but it doesn't make sense that they don't work against armor.

(2) Increasing the difficulty affects biotic classes worse than the others.

[littlezack]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i come across like a dick? i think your confusing me ripping on ME2, with being mean.

No, he's not.

hmmm, im suprised we havent met before. i agree with you, but theres alot of dense people here who only apreciate exactly what bioware does, nothing more, nothing less. 

[The Spamming Troll]

honestly, id like to call alot of you dickish as well. but i figure thats already been said enough.

is it weird to you that there seems to be one of these topics popping up every other week?

its not my fault.

[MELTOR13]

I honestly enjoy the system ME2 offers. Could it be better?

Yes. Everything can always be better.

Have I seen an idea, here on the BSN or anywhere else, that makes me think "hey, this would be a great idea, better than the current system!" in regards to the combat for ME3?

Nope. As much as people here love to be armchair game developers, most don't have a clue about game design. You can make just about everything sound great on paper. Implementation, however, is a whole new ordeal. I trust BioWare to keep providing gameplay that I enjoy. So far, so good. I'm sorry that you don't feel the same way.

[111987]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I have two problems with biotics and the protection system:

(1) Lore/gameplay segregation. It makes sense that telekinetic powers don't work against shields, but it doesn't make sense that they don't work against armor.

(2) Increasing the difficulty affects biotic classes worse than the others.

(1) I think you have it backwards. It makes no sense that kinetic barriers would stop biotic fields (kinetic barriers are finely tuned mass effect fields that only activate when objects of a certain high velocity come into contact with the shields). We even see in the books that kinetic barriers are useless against biotics. Meanwhile, armor as seen in ME1 has all sorts of stuff that increase weight and gravity resistance, etc...which makes the target to heavy to be affected by biotic fields.

(2) Agreed. The Blue Suns missions in particular are very annoying.

[littlezack]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

honestly, id like to call alot of you dickish as well. but i figure thats already been said enough.

is it weird to you that there seems to be one of these topics popping up every other week?

its not my fault.

Do I think it's weird that discussions pop up on a discussionn forum? No, I do not find that weird. And I'm not saying it is your fault, or that there's any fault to be had.

But that doesn't excuse being a dick. Heck, other people being a dick doesn't excuse being a dick.

[Ieldra]

111987 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I have two problems with biotics and the protection system:

(1) Lore/gameplay segregation. It makes sense that telekinetic powers don't work against shields, but it doesn't make sense that they don't work against armor.

(2) Increasing the difficulty affects biotic classes worse than the others.

(1) I think you have it backwards. It makes no sense that kinetic barriers would stop biotic fields (kinetic barriers are finely tuned mass effect fields that only activate when objects of a certain high velocity come into contact with the shields). We even see in the books that kinetic barriers are useless against biotics. Meanwhile, armor as seen in ME1 has all sorts of stuff that increase weight and gravity resistance, etc...which makes the target to heavy to be affected by biotic fields.

(2) Agreed. The Blue Suns missions in particular are very annoying.

(1) Not quite. Telekinetic effects and kinetic shields are both created by mass effect fields. Which means it's plausible that they interact with each other, while armor in the ME universe isn't powered, so that any armor too heavy to affect with telekinetics would also be too heavy to carry around.

[lazuli]

Ieldra2 wrote...

(1) Not quite. Telekinetic effects and kinetic shields are both created by mass effect fields. Which means it's plausible that they interact with each other, while armor in the ME universe isn't powered, so that any armor too heavy to affect with telekinetics would also be too heavy to carry around.

I don't really care about lore consistency when it comes to gameplay, but there was armor in ME1 that was speficically designed to reduce the effects of biotics.

[111987]

Ieldra2 wrote...

111987 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I have two problems with biotics and the protection system:

(1) Lore/gameplay segregation. It makes sense that telekinetic powers don't work against shields, but it doesn't make sense that they don't work against armor.

(2) Increasing the difficulty affects biotic classes worse than the others.

(1) I think you have it backwards. It makes no sense that kinetic barriers would stop biotic fields (kinetic barriers are finely tuned mass effect fields that only activate when objects of a certain high velocity come into contact with the shields). We even see in the books that kinetic barriers are useless against biotics. Meanwhile, armor as seen in ME1 has all sorts of stuff that increase weight and gravity resistance, etc...which makes the target to heavy to be affected by biotic fields.

(2) Agreed. The Blue Suns missions in particular are very annoying.

(1) Not quite. Telekinetic effects and kinetic shields are both created by mass effect fields. Which means it's plausible that they interact with each other, while armor in the ME universe isn't powered, so that any armor too heavy to affect with telekinetics would also be too heavy to carry around.

But the thing is, kinetic barriers only activate when something is moving towards them at a certain (high velocity).

Plus, as I mentioned in the books, kinetic barriers do not stop biotic attacks.

As for armor, the upgrade page on the wiki explains why armor can be resistant to biotics.
masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Armor_Upgrades

[Wulfram]

There's not much point in having 3 powers to ruin unshielded enemies day when one will do the job just fine.

[Shepard the Leper]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i love how people who think ME2 is great, can only compare it to ME1s obviouse flaws. enemy defenses in ME2 protect shepard WORSE then health does. if health is so much tougher to take down, whats the point of adding enemy protections, other then rock-paper-scissors powers, and eliminationg the majorty of abilities in the game?

It does not eliminate powers at all. They cannot be used (effectively) all the time - which is something entirely different.

when i played ME1, i didnt need an explanation why basic lift couldnt lift a collosi. if was a frickin collossi, and i had basic lift as a level 8 character. it definately could do for some more explaing, like why i needed atleast advanced throw to effect the krogan on therum. but ive seen numerouse posts about proposing an ability system that can be "evolved" into abilities that work on "everything." i surely havent seen anyone requesting to use abilities less, which is basically the sole reason enemy protections exist.

Can you explain why Master Lift can lift a Colossus, but does nothing to a tiny Drone? That doesn't make much sense to me.

im not exactly sure what you mean by absolute resistances, but when im playing an adept on insanity, i feel nothing but impotent. im not satisfied with a half second stagger when i use an ability called heavy throw, andi really wont be impressed in a game that featuers evolutions, in which i can only cause a half second stagger as well. playing ME2 i wonder why im leveling my other abilities("my other abilities" its that pathetic, i only consider warp, singularity, and stasis as actually abilities. do i have backup abilities, to my back up abilities. great. anyways.), when basic throw does the same then master through does on a protected enemy.

Your own incompetence to make good use out of the available abilities is your problem, not the game's. You're one of those guys who judge powers only by what they can do to enemies with full health and protection. Powers like Pull and Throw are very powerful - much more powerful than Warp BTW. Is it really that hard to understand you have to shoot first and then use a power to kill an enemy?

i dont think biotics, or any ability hampered by protections, should be considered "backup" options. thats like saying the force is only used for childs play. the game isnt complicated. its the EASIEST SHOOTER i have ever played. the AI is laughable, the game features the most basic concepts of a so called shooter in any game ever made........ah, what im trying to say is the complaints arent becasue "we suck at playing videogames." its about the enjoyment of such videogames. unless, you actually think rock paper scissors is hard? ....man its too easy to crap on ME2s "great(compared to ME1, right?)" combat.

Why play ME if it sucks?

And can you list one game in which all powers can be used on all enemies, coz I don't know any. There are always enemies who are immune to certain effects, but somehow when it comes to ME2 (which only has temp-immunity) it sucks. (I'm not even mentioning we're talking Insanity difficulty here, on the default difficulty protection is rare and you can go berserk with all powers - why not play on those levels if that's your thing?)

[Shepard the Leper]

Wulfram wrote...

There's not much point in having 3 powers to ruin unshielded enemies day when one will do the job just fine.

Are you saying Pull, Throw and Shockwave are identical powers making the others redundant once you can use one of em?

That's complete nonsense. All three have specific uses and the situation determines which one has the "best" effect.

Pull can be used to setup combos (SW and Throw cannot); you don't want to Pull a suicide-bomber Husk towards you - Throw is what you need here; Enemies hiding behind cover? Send a Shockwave. Etc.

[111987]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

There's not much point in having 3 powers to ruin unshielded enemies day when one will do the job just fine.

Are you saying Pull, Throw and Shockwave are identical powers making the others redundant once you can use one of em?

That's complete nonsense. All three have specific uses and the situation determines which one has the "best" effect.

Pull can be used to setup combos (SW and Throw cannot); you don't want to Pull a suicide-bomber Husk towards you - Throw is what you need here; Enemies hiding behind cover? Send a Shockwave. Etc.

While I understand your point, you really can do everything just with Pull. It can set-up combos, arc around cover, and you can easily angle your pull to drag Abominations away from you.

Throw can't set up combos, but it can arc around cover and you can just spam it to knock enemies off a cliff.

Shockwave can't set up combos, but it goes through cover anyways, and pushes enemies away from you.

So my point is, while it makes the game more fun to use varying powers, they are somewhat redundant.

[tonnactus]

unfringed wrote...


A number of powers weren't seen often by your enemies. They still had the same health system you did, the same armor system you did, the same shield system you did -- sure, they didn't use singularity or marksman,

The asari commandos at least used basic markmen. And Benezia used a very damaging warp-throw combination.

[Fixers0]

Personally i felt utterly unimpressed with this new ''protection layer system'' bioware has introducedd in Mass Effect 2, It did fix some balancing  issues with like immunity and some other stuff but overall it felt to much like a chore and din't have any kind of value attachted to it other then to lengthen gameplay sequences, and it dind't even made gameplay much more challenging when compared to it's predecessor  and while some people seem to suggest that this is a way to change gameplay tacticts more often, but that not really true, it becomes  routine work to do first A then B, and the C, in that way combat becomes predictable and it takes away the tension of combatdespite Bioware's attempts to make the gameplay more dynamic.

It's also part of a larger issue that is that the to me the game was reduced into two kinds of sequences with a very clear seperation between te two, the Combat (gameplay) parts and the dialouge (narative) parts, now in here i will limit myself to the gameplay parts, these part seem to be always be perefctly under control by some invisible force that guides the course of the battle enemy tacitcs are always the same, and there are no surpises that await youbut that aside, gameplay elements also feel reduced to the core of their existance ex: Kinetic barriers are just and extent of you're health bar, while health it self doesn't feel like you're pyschial fortitude but rather a counter to measure if you're death yet.

In a nutshell, Gameplay doesn't feel like combat anymore but more like how fast you can reach a wall and press the left mouse button.

And about the famous gameplay Vs Lore thing, well i personally want them to be more in harmony, in really thought Mass Effect 1 was attempt to center the gameplay around the universe, things like Kinetic barriers, Weapon operation and abilities were all based around fictional concepts used in the game, and while i did bring a lot of problems with it mainly ballencing, it felt refresing and interesting for a game these days. Mass Effect 2 on the other hand felt almost "mechanical'' in the way gameplay was excuted, like everything piece just had to fit together perfectly, polishing is nice but we still need to know that it's a work of human art. 

[CptBomBom00]

I have adept max lvl and what I use is Warp and sometimes Shock wave that's enough for me and I looking forward to mutations things in ME3.

[tonnactus]

unfringed wrote...


The 'mana' could be simple fatigue or energy, recharging over time or after eating some rations or snack bars.

Deus Ex Human Revolution did it right.  Mass Effect 2 did it horribly wrong. Its combat system regarding biotics(=magic)
is even worser then in Dragon Age 2,were some bandits couldnt burn somehow for example.But at least fire and electricity works on them(but not on other where fire works/i guess the principle is clear),what made using magic still fun to use and not montone like playing an adept or vanguard in Mass Effect 2.

Modifié par tonnactus, 06 octobre 2011 - 06:15 .

[tonnactus]

lazuli wrote...


I don't really care about lore consistency when it comes to gameplay, but there was armor in ME1 that was speficically designed to reduce the effects of biotics.

Reduce and  neutralize are two different things.