100 réponses à ce sujet

[Serogon]

Think about it. Loghain allowed the Grey Wardens to be massacred then desperately hunted down the survivors and anyone who supported them (remember the trap in the back room of the Pearl?). He thought they were just good at fighting Darkspawn, but not necessary. If people knew that they were absolutely needed to stop an Archdemon, there's no way he'd have done that. I understand why stuff like the Joining ritual are kept secret, but why that? 

[AdrynBliss]

Well i guess you could call it a plot hole but I like to think of it as an example of the tragedy forced into motion by the politics and intrigue within Ferelden. It was the Grey Warden's own secrecy that brought them to the brink of annihilation.

[KalosCast]

Because... uh...

Well if you just apply some basic logic then you'd realize... uh...

Well, in the codex... hm..

The whole Grey Warden regicide thing is irrelevant to the plot anyway. I dismiss thee!

[Shady314]

Recruitment. Wardens already have a hard enough time recruiting. Before this blight it's been 400 years since the last one. If blights happened more frequently MAYBE it would be a good idea to tell people.

What do you think most people are dreaming of when they become a Grey Warden? Riding Griffons and slaying Archdemons. Well the Griffons are all dead and now you want to tell people slaying the Archdemon is certain death? Then of course you have to explain WHY a Grey Warden dies and is essential to killing an Archdemon. Now the Joining is also revealed.

Lastly, I have seen this ridiculous argument before about Loghain. If only he had known he would not have done this! Except of course no one has seen the Archdemon and Loghain does not believe it's a true Blight. So he would have gone ahead with it anyways.

EDIT: I see some other people also fell into this logic trap. Let me repeat myself. Loghain STILL would have done it. He does not believe it's a true blight. No one has seen the Archdemon. Only the Grey Wardens have sensed it. If Duncan had told Loghain. You think he would have believed him? Oh you say only Grey Wardens can kill the demon do you? And you know one is around because you can sense it? Well all right then. That explains everything. Let me stop all the treacherous plans I've already had Howe put into motion. <_<

Modifié par Shady314, 22 novembre 2009 - 09:26 .

[Scarekrow_au]

Also i think recrutiment may crash as well 'Join the Wardens, youll be lucky to make it to thirty and you die if you kill the archdemon'

[Maria Caliban]

Serogon wrote...

 If people knew that they were absolutely needed to stop an Archdemon, there's no way he'd have done that.

Except Loghian didn't think it was a Blight. He thought the Wardens were pretending it was a Blight so Calian would let the Orlesians into the country.

[Serogon]

Two things. One, I never understood why people even think it's not a Blight. It's possible my memory is failing me (it's currently 4 in the morning here, not thinking very clearly) but don't they ONLY come up during a Blight? And about the recruitment thing, that's going to be irrelevant for recruitment. Only one person has to die, and unless the Wardens refuse to follow any logic whatsoever, it's going to be the most senior member. Even if you don't know about the 30 years to live thing, you'll assume that if it's you you won't have long to live anyway.

[KalosCast]

You don't have to tell them you die, just tell them you get sweet darkspawn sensing powers and the ability to prevent Archdemon body-jump.

[Shady314]

Serogon wrote...

Two things. One, I never understood why people even think it's not a Blight. It's possible my memory is failing me (it's currently 4 in the morning here, not thinking very clearly) but don't they ONLY come up during a Blight?

No they come up frequently to raid. Rarely as a horde but it does happen.

And about the recruitment thing, that's going to be irrelevant for recruitment. Only one person has to die, and unless the Wardens refuse to follow any logic whatsoever, it's going to be the most senior member. Even if you don't know about the 30 years to live thing, you'll assume that if it's you you won't have long to live anyway.

We'll just have to agree to disagree but stripping the Grey Wardens of EVERY romantic trapping they have is NOT good for recruitment.

EDIT: Also explaining why a Grey Warden is necessary to kill the Archdemon means you also have to explain the Joining.

Modifié par Shady314, 22 novembre 2009 - 09:30 .

[Serogon]

Shady314 wrote...

And about the recruitment thing, that's going to be irrelevant for recruitment. Only one person has to die, and unless the Wardens refuse to follow any logic whatsoever, it's going to be the most senior member. Even if you don't know about the 30 years to live thing, you'll assume that if it's you you won't have long to live anyway.

We'll just have to agree to disagree but stripping the Grey Wardens of EVERY romantic trapping they have is NOT good for recruitment.

EDIT: Also explaining why a Grey Warden is necessary to kill the Archdemon means you also have to explain the Joining.

I suppose, but they could probably think of a way. They don't really have to explain how. And also, I just realized something: how do people not already know that killing the Archdemon kills you? You know, since it already happened 3 times? Did the Orlesian occupation or some other event destroy a ton of historical records and magicaly mind erase people who knew?

EDIT: A bit more clarification on the explaining how part: it's already common knowledge that the Joining changes people somehow, since people know about their darkspawn sensing. Why would they have to explain the taint to explain that they can permenantly kill the Archdemon?

Modifié par Serogon, 22 novembre 2009 - 09:35 .

[Gaspara]

Serogon wrote...

Two things. One, I never understood why people even think it's not a Blight. It's possible my memory is failing me (it's currently 4 in the morning here, not thinking very clearly) but don't they ONLY come up during a Blight? And about the recruitment thing, that's going to be irrelevant for recruitment. Only one person has to die, and unless the Wardens refuse to follow any logic whatsoever, it's going to be the most senior member. Even if you don't know about the 30 years to live thing, you'll assume that if it's you you won't have long to live anyway.

If I remember correctly it is only considered an official blight if the Archdemon appears.

As to recruitment and keeping secrets - I imagine if everything were known upfront it would be a little bit too much, though I'm not saying I agree with the Gray Warden's methods.

It is implied that killing an Archdemon no only kills you but could annihilate your soul. I don't think that is stated outright, but it sounds like what happens to me. I doubt that would sit well with most people.

[Shady314]

Serogon wrote...

I suppose, but they could probably think of a way. They don't really have to explain how.

So LIE? How is that any better than just keeping it a secret?

And also, I just realized something: how do people not already know that killing the Archdemon kills you? You know, since it already happened 3 times? Did the Orlesian occupation or some other event destroy a ton of historical records and magicaly mind erase people who knew?

"People die fighting the Archdemon" is different from "the Grey Warden who strikes the killing blow on the Archdemon dies on the spot."

bit more clarification on the explaining how part: it's already common knowledge that the Joining changes people somehow, since people know about their darkspawn sensing. Why would they have to explain the taint to explain that they can permenantly kill the Archdemon?

It is not common knowledge the Joining changes people. Most people do not know Grey wardens can sense the darkspawn.

Modifié par Shady314, 22 novembre 2009 - 09:37 .

[Serogon]

Shady314 wrote...

Serogon wrote...

I suppose, but they could probably think of a way. They don't really have to explain how.

So LIE? How is that any better than just keeping it a secret?

And also, I just realized something: how do people not already know that killing the Archdemon kills you? You know, since it already happened 3 times? Did the Orlesian occupation or some other event destroy a ton of historical records and magicaly mind erase people who knew?

"People die fighting the Archdemon" is different from "the Grey Warden who strikes the killing blow on the Archdemon dies on the spot."

It's not lying to say that they're necessary and the person with the killing blow dies but not mention the taint... and what about the big public funeral when you sacrifice yourself? Is that a first?

[Akka le Vil]

Honestly, the whole "it needs to be secret !" is ridiculous and felt more /facepalm than anything.



Joining the Grey Warden is already devoting your entire life fighting Darkspawn. People ready to spend their remaining years fighting some tainted monsters are unlikely to be fettered by risks of death.

And if he's fettered by this, do you really want him in your ranks ? Not likely.



The secret stuff is simply a writing flaw. It's more detrimental than positive to the Wardens in general.

[Shady314]

Serogon wrote...
It's not lying to say that they're necessary and the person with the killing blow dies but not mention the taint...

Lying by omission is lying.
You think no one is going to ask WHY. WHY are they necessary? WHY will you die if you land the killing blow?

and what about the big public funeral when you sacrifice yourself? Is that a first?

Um no. What's your point? Yes people that fight the Archdemon tend to die. Nothing mysterious about that. Riordan died too.

[Shady314]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Honestly, the whole "it needs to be secret !" is ridiculous and felt more /facepalm than anything.

Joining the Grey Warden is already devoting your entire life fighting Darkspawn. People ready to spend their remaining years fighting some tainted monsters are unlikely to be fettered by risks of death.
And if he's fettered by this, do you really want him in your ranks ? Not likely.

The secret stuff is simply a writing flaw. It's more detrimental than positive to the Wardens in general.

/facepalm That's why it's not a secret AFTER you've joined. It's a secret before.

[Serogon]

Shady314 wrote...

Serogon wrote...
It's not lying to say that they're necessary and the person with the killing blow dies but not mention the taint...

Lying by omission is lying.
You think no one is going to ask WHY. WHY are they necessary? WHY will you die if you land the killing blow?

and what about the big public funeral when you sacrifice yourself? Is that a first?

Um no. What's your point? Yes people that fight the Archdemon tend to die. Nothing mysterious about that. Riordan died too.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Alistair say that you're to be brought to the Grey Warden base to be buried with the other three people that dealt the final blow in past Blights? Even if he doesn't outright mention that you died from it, I highly doubt one person died in the final battle per Blight.

[Fishy]

Well because
1:You have 1 chance of 2 to die at the ritual
2:You have 30 years max to live
3:They don't recruit everything.You have to be a very good warrior .. I mean you fight monster all of your life.You need some skill lol .
4:If you kill the archdemon .. You die
5:and finnaly you have horror vision for all of your life and you eat like a pork.

and remember the warden was banned from Ferelden 80 years prior to the events.

Modifié par Suprez30, 22 novembre 2009 - 09:44 .

[Shady314]

Serogon wrote...
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Alistair say that you're to be brought to the Grey Warden base to be buried with the other three people that dealt the final blow in past Blights? Even if he doesn't outright mention that you died from it, I highly doubt one person died in the final battle per Blight.

Well first off I've never done the sacrifice ending so i don't know what Alistair says. But since those other people lived centuries ago it's no surprise they're dead and buried now is it. 

It's also no surprise the person to land the killing blow would be buried with honors. None of that means anything.

Modifié par Shady314, 22 novembre 2009 - 09:45 .

[Serogon]

Suprez30 wrote...

Well because
1:You have 1 chance of 2 to die at the ritual
2:You have 30 years max to live
3:They don't recruit everything.You have to be a very good warrior .. I mean you fight monster all of your life.You need some skill lol .
4:If you kill the archdemon .. You die
5:and finnaly you have horror vision for all of your life and you eat like a pork.

/facepalm
Please read the first post. The only thing I was talking about was the Archdemon. Not the taint.

[Serogon]

Shady314 wrote...

Serogon wrote...
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Alistair say that you're to be brought to the Grey Warden base to be buried with the other three people that dealt the final blow in past Blights? Even if he doesn't outright mention that you died from it, I highly doubt one person died in the final battle per Blight.

Well first off I've never done the sacrifice ending so i don't know what Alistair says. But since those other people lived centuries ago it's no surprise they're dead and buried now is it. 

what...?
Specifically buried in a special tomb with three other people? One from each Blight? You don't think that'll raise some eyebrows assuming he doesn't directly mention that you died because you finished the Archdemon?

[Scarekrow_au]

Actually it might be because the Wardens are afraid of being destroyed. Some people might take the Joining the wrong way and beleive the Wardens are darkspawn. I mean they know the blood can kill you or make you into a ghoul so an entire order that willingly drinks the blood and becomes tainted may be seen as evil. Maybe even to the extent the chantry would send templars after them.

[Serogon]

Damn it people, READ THE FIRST ****ING POST. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE TAINT. JUST THE ARCHDEMON-FINISHING.

[Fishy]

Plot hole Serogon.. I mean at some point they would realize it..The 4 that defeated the archdemon die..Oh and shady you should do the sacrifce one.Because it's quite moving the speech of allistair.

[Shady314]

Serogon wrote...

Suprez30 wrote...

Well because
1:You have 1 chance of 2 to die at the ritual
2:You have 30 years max to live
3:They don't recruit everything.You have to be a very good warrior .. I mean you fight monster all of your life.You need some skill lol .
4:If you kill the archdemon .. You die
5:and finnaly you have horror vision for all of your life and you eat like a pork.

/facepalm
Please read the first post. The only thing I was talking about was the Archdemon. Not the taint.

The point I believe they were trying to make is that giving someone all the bad **** AT ONCE is stupid. It's like telling a blind date every flaw and eccentricity you have. People know enough about the Wardens to know that it SUCKS and they deserve respect for doing it. But they don't know just how much it sucks.