100 réponses à ce sujet

[Gaspara]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Honestly, the whole "it needs to be secret !" is ridiculous and felt more /facepalm than anything.

Joining the Grey Warden is already devoting your entire life fighting Darkspawn. People ready to spend their remaining years fighting some tainted monsters are unlikely to be fettered by risks of death.
And if he's fettered by this, do you really want him in your ranks ? Not likely.

The secret stuff is simply a writing flaw. It's more detrimental than positive to the Wardens in general.

Becoming a Gray Warden changes your soul, alters your life and your destiny forever. Whether or not I agree with the Gray Warden's methods, to me it felt like a legitimate way of showing that this is a very different world, with very high stakes - and to point out the idea of a world with a lot of moral ambiguity. They would say that they do what they must to prevent the destruction of everything.

That's just my take on it.

[Serogon]

Shady314 wrote...

Serogon wrote...

Suprez30 wrote...

Well because
1:You have 1 chance of 2 to die at the ritual
2:You have 30 years max to live
3:They don't recruit everything.You have to be a very good warrior .. I mean you fight monster all of your life.You need some skill lol .
4:If you kill the archdemon .. You die
5:and finnaly you have horror vision for all of your life and you eat like a pork.

/facepalm
Please read the first post. The only thing I was talking about was the Archdemon. Not the taint.

The point I believe they were trying to make is that giving someone all the bad **** AT ONCE is stupid. It's like telling a blind date every flaw and eccentricity you have. People know enough about the Wardens to know that it SUCKS and they deserve respect for doing it. But they don't know just how much it sucks.

I still don't understand how knowing that the guy who finishes it dies is even bad. It's always the senior member (I'm assuming) meaning that even without knowledge of the taint means you won't have long to live anyway, and it's doubtful that it'll even be you.

[Shady314]

Serogon wrote...
what...?
Specifically buried in a special tomb with three other people? One from each Blight? You don't think that'll raise some eyebrows assuming he doesn't directly mention that you died because you finished the Archdemon?

NO. Why the hell should it?
Killing an Archdemon is the pinnacle of any Grey Warden's career. It's like the entire reason they exist. The other ones that have killed an archdemon lived centuries ago. Of course they're dead. Of course they'd get a special burial spot for being the person who slayed an Archdemon and ended a Blight. Of course you would be laid to rest with them. 

Unless Alistair specifically says you're being laid to rest with the other Grey wardens that died FROM landing the killing blow. Not just who did land the blow.

[Scarekrow_au]

Serogon wrote...

Damn it people, READ THE FIRST ****ING POST. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE TAINT. JUST THE ARCHDEMON-FINISHING.

I did read it, but questions would be raised about why it happens which would eventually lead back to the taint. I understand what your saying why not say  'We Grey Wardens are the only ones who can kill an arch-demon, anyone else its soul simply jumps bodys and is reborn' people would ask why can only a Grey Warden slay it which would eventually lead to them having to explain the Joining ritual

[Shady314]

Serogon wrote...
I still don't understand how knowing that the guy who finishes it dies is even bad. It's always the senior member (I'm assuming) meaning that even without knowledge of the taint means you won't have long to live anyway, and it's doubtful that it'll even be you.

It's always the plan that the senior member will get the blow. Riordan is proof it doesn't always work out that way now does it?

[rumination888]

The only secret was the Joining ritual and all it entails.
A Grey Warden being the only one to slay an Archdemon isn't a secret, only the reason why is a secret.
Imagine the public outcry if people knew Grey Wardens and Darkspawn were the same.
As someone else mentioned, no one has even seen the Archdemon at Ostagar. 
Only the Grey Wardens there could even sense him, and that is linked to the Darkspawn taint within them and must be kept secret.

[Serogon]

Shady314 wrote...

Serogon wrote...
I still don't understand how knowing that the guy who finishes it dies is even bad. It's always the senior member (I'm assuming) meaning that even without knowledge of the taint means you won't have long to live anyway, and it's doubtful that it'll even be you.

It's always the plan that the senior member will get the blow. Riordan is proof it doesn't always work out that way now does it?

There's also not normally going to be three Grey Wardens. Oh, senior member's dead? Well, still a bunch of others left. NEXT! Most likely going to take quite a while. And you really don't find it remotely suspicious that ONE person out of all the dead get their own tomb? And the finishing blow guy ALWAYS dies? 

[Randy1012]

I think a lot of it has to do with the nature of secret societies in general. The Knights Templar kept their rituals and practices a secret, even though they were all probably pretty benign and not nearly as evil as the Church believed.

Another reason is probably just simple psychology. People would be too unnerved by the idea that the Wardens willingly take into their bodies the taint of the darkspawn; it wouldn't matter to them that this might give them special darkspawn-slaying powers, the practice itself would be seen as evil and contrary to the Chant of Light. The darkspawn are foul and unholy; how much could the average Fereldan truly trust a Grey Warden if they knew he chose to defile his own body, created by the Maker Himself, with their taint?

The common man would be too wrapped up in their fear and prejudices to worry about rumors that only a Grey Warden can slay an archdemon. They'd rather trust in what they know than place their life in the hands of a man carrying the taint of the darkspawn within him.

Modifié par Randy1083, 22 novembre 2009 - 09:56 .

[Serogon]

Ugh... I understand that the Joining itself has to be kept secret due to the taint. I agree with that. But knowledge of the Joining and the taint is completely irrelevant to know that only a Grey Warden can kill an Archdemon. And the fact that something changes is obviously common knowledge, considering how people know that they're so good at fighting Darkspawn.

[Shady314]

Serogon wrote...
There's also not normally going to be three Grey Wardens. Oh, senior member's dead? Well, still a bunch of others left. NEXT! Most likely going to take quite a while. And you really don't find it remotely suspicious that ONE person out of all the dead get their own tomb?

There is nothing suspicious about a special tomb for the Greatest of the Grey Wardens.

And the finishing blow guy ALWAYS dies? 

IF  I knew that every previous Warden died the moment they struck the killing blow on the Archdemon. Then yes I'd be suspicious. But who do you think knows that? People know they died battling the Archdemon. Or that they're dead NOW not that they died landing the final blow. And if someone does piece it together I don't think they would automatically assume it's because they drank blood and absorbed the archdemon's soul and were obliterated by it. I think they'd assume the Archdemon's death throes or magic etc. killed the Warden.

[Shady314]

Serogon wrote...

Ugh... I understand that the Joining itself has to be kept secret due to the taint. I agree with that. But knowledge of the Joining and the taint is completely irrelevant to know that only a Grey Warden can kill an Archdemon.

NO it is NOT. You can't just claim a Grey Warden is the only one that can land the killing blow and expect anyone to believe you without explaining it.

And the fact that something changes is obviously common knowledge, considering how people know that they're so good at fighting Darkspawn.

Again NO. People believe it is due to their skill at arms, training and experience. Not a mystical transformation.

[Serogon]

Shady314 wrote...

Serogon wrote...
There's also not normally going to be three Grey Wardens. Oh, senior member's dead? Well, still a bunch of others left. NEXT! Most likely going to take quite a while. And you really don't find it remotely suspicious that ONE person out of all the dead get their own tomb?

There is nothing suspicious about a special tomb for the Greatest of the Grey Wardens.

And the finishing blow guy ALWAYS dies? 

IF  I knew that every previous Warden died the moment they struck the killing blow on the Archdemon. Then yes I'd be suspicious. But who do you think knows that? People know they died battling the Archdemon. Or that they're dead NOW not that they died landing the final blow. And if someone does piece it together I don't think they would automatically assume it's because they drank blood and absorbed the archdemon's soul and were obliterated by it. I think they'd assume the Archdemon's death throes or magic etc. killed the Warden.

Hmmm, all three of them died were dead after killing the Archdemon? Ah, just coincidence. Nothing special there. Are you kidding me?

[Serogon]

Shady314 wrote...

Serogon wrote...

Ugh... I understand that the Joining itself has to be kept secret due to the taint. I agree with that. But knowledge of the Joining and the taint is completely irrelevant to know that only a Grey Warden can kill an Archdemon.

NO it is NOT. You can't just claim a Grey Warden is the only one that can land the killing blow and expect anyone to believe you without explaining it.

And the fact that something changes is obviously common knowledge, considering how people know that they're so good at fighting Darkspawn.

Again NO. People believe it is due to their skill at arms, training and experience. Not a mystical transformation.

Yes, it's just skill at arms, which is why they have to go through some sort of ritual to join, and why they can sense them. Even if most people don't know they can sense them, the higher up people clearly do.

[rumination888]

Serogon wrote...

Ugh... I understand that the Joining itself has to be kept secret due to the taint. I agree with that. But knowledge of the Joining and the taint is completely irrelevant to know that only a Grey Warden can kill an Archdemon. And the fact that something changes is obviously common knowledge, considering how people know that they're so good at fighting Darkspawn.

As someone earlier said, no one has seen the Archdemon.

Duncan: Only a Grey Warden can slay the Archdemon. We must wait for more Wardens from Orlais.
Loghain: Bah! There are no Archdemons here! All our scouts report nothing!
Duncan: But there is one.
Loghain: And just how do you know that?
Duncan: ....

[Akka le Vil]

Shady314 wrote...

/facepalm That's why it's not a secret AFTER you've joined. It's a secret before.

/facepalm and of course having people who may not have the backbone nor devotion required has any relevance with that ?

[Shady314]

Serogon wrote...
Hmmm, all three of them died were dead after killing the Archdemon? Ah, just coincidence. Nothing special there. Are you kidding me?

Are you kidding me? You think every farmer and peasant grows up reading a Grey warden history book? And a terribly accurate one at that?

At best people know every previous Warden to finish off the Archdemon died in the battle. Not surprising considering the danger and power of the Archdemon and Darkspawn.

[Randy1012]

Serogon wrote...

Ugh... I understand that the Joining itself has to be kept secret due to the taint. I agree with that. But knowledge of the Joining and the taint is completely irrelevant to know that only a Grey Warden can kill an Archdemon. And the fact that something changes is obviously common knowledge, considering how people know that they're so good at fighting Darkspawn.

I'm sorry, but I really don't understand your point. Several people have already explained to you why it's all so secretive. The biggest part of it would have to be simple psychology. If the common man knew the truth about the Grey Wardens, they wouldn't hold them in such high regard. Sure, they fight against the Blight and kill darkspawn when they're in full view of the common folk, but what are they plotting elsewhere? Perhaps that same taint has corrupted their souls and they intend to bring Thedas under their own rule.

Not that I actually believe any of that, I'm just speaking as if I'm a common freeholder who just found out the Grey Wardens' dark, dirty secret. If I'm a devout Andrastian, I'd be horrified and more than a little suspicious.

[Vormaerin]

Serogon wrote...

Damn it people, READ THE FIRST ****ING POST. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE TAINT. JUST THE ARCHDEMON-FINISHING.

The problem here is that *you* think the Wardens can convince everyone of their secret ninja powers to end Archdemons without explaining the taint that makes it all possible.     These other posters don't agree with you.

Frankly, I don't think they are afraid of bad recruting...the use the Rite fo Conscription a lot anyway.   I agree with the poster a few back... they are worried about people learning they are Tainted and eventually go crazy/turn into ghouls/whatever.   I think they keep the archdemon thing secret because they believe it will inevitably lead to the taint issue.  And might cause non Wardens to refuse to fight "Because they can't do anything anyway"....

[Serogon]

Shady314 wrote...

Serogon wrote...
Hmmm, all three of them died were dead after killing the Archdemon? Ah, just coincidence. Nothing special there. Are you kidding me?

Are you kidding me? You think every farmer and peasant grows up reading a Grey warden history book? And a terribly accurate one at that?

At best people know every previous Warden to finish off the Archdemon died in the battle. Not surprising considering the danger and power of the Archdemon and Darkspawn.

I don't mean every random peasant, I mean the higher up people. The nobles. Scholars. Educated people. Etcetera.

[Shady314]

Serogon wrote...
Yes, it's just skill at arms, which is why they have to go through some sort of ritual to join,

which most people don't know exist. As evidenced by the PC, Daveth AND JORY who is in love with the Wardens and has heard many tales about them.

It's the skill at arms. They only accept great warriors to begin with. It's the training and experience. Many people have never even SEEN a darkspawn (as evidenced by the instructor at Ostagar) whereas Grey wardens fight them ceaselessly.

and why they can sense them.

Again no one knows that.

Even if most people don't know they can sense them, the higher up people clearly do.

???????? Name one person. Anora only knows many people die joining the Grey Wardens. I'd love to hear your evidence that CLEARLY "higher up" people know this.

[Serogon]

The higher up people clearly know about their Darkspawn sensing. Okay? Therefore, they know that something must have changed. Do they know about the Joining? No. But they accept the sensing. Why wouldn't they accept the Archdemon killing?

About the higher up people knowing, didn't Caelin know?

Modifié par Serogon, 22 novembre 2009 - 10:08 .

[Shady314]

Serogon wrote...
I don't mean every random peasant, I mean the higher up people. The nobles. Scholars. Educated people. Etcetera.

Oh you mean the smallest minority there is in a medieval society.  Yes common knowledge indeed. And no most of them would have no idea. Not every scholar is dedicated to the Grey Wardens. Not every noble is interested in history let alone Grey Warden history. People love the myths and tales. Not the details.

[Serogon]

Shady314 wrote...

Serogon wrote...
I don't mean every random peasant, I mean the higher up people. The nobles. Scholars. Educated people. Etcetera.

Oh you mean the smallest minority there is in a medieval society.  Yes common knowledge indeed. And no most of them would have no idea. Not every scholar is dedicated to the Grey Wardens. Not every noble is interested in history let alone Grey Warden history. People love the myths and tales. Not the details.

Knowledge spreads. If someone who specialized in Grey Warden history noticed it, it would spread.

[Shady314]

Serogon wrote...

The higher up people clearly know about their Darkspawn sensing. Okay? Therefore, they know that something must have changed. Do they know about the Joining? No. But they accept the sensing. Why wouldn't they accept the Archdemon killing?

About the higher up people knowing, didn't Caelin know?

NO! You should try talking to Duncan about it. And later Alistair. If Cailan did know and believe he never would have said that he wasn't sure it was a true blight! Because he would have known Duncan could sense the Archdemon and would thus know to take him at his word when he said it was a real one.

[Akka le Vil]

Considering the history and how the Blight can only be ended with Grey Warden, I don't see why people wouldn't accept "only Grey Warden can kill an Archdemon". They could say that they have a special training/joining that is often lethal but allows them to fight the darkspawn.

Just like the Templar vs the mages, and I don't see people freaking about the Templars, do I ?