100 réponses à ce sujet

[Shady314]

Serogon wrote...
Knowledge spreads. If someone who specialized in Grey Warden history noticed it, it would spread.

This is not the modern world. There's no internet, tv, radio, POST MAIL, NOTHING. Information does not just want to be free. The truth does not automatically triumph over lies and misinformation. It would not trickle down and saturate every level of society because a few people know. That is ludicrous.

[Shady314]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Considering the history and how the Blight can only be ended with Grey Warden, I don't see why people wouldn't accept "only Grey Warden can kill an Archdemon". They could say that they have a special training/joining that is often lethal but allows them to fight the darkspawn.
Just like the Templar vs the mages, and I don't see people freaking about the Templars, do I ?

Yeah that's believable. <_<

The templars make a terrible analogy. You don't NEED a templar to killa mage. They just help! Which is the whole problem according to the OP. That people think Grey Wardens are very helpful when really they are necessary.

[Serogon]

Shady314 wrote...

Serogon wrote...
Knowledge spreads. If someone who specialized in Grey Warden history noticed it, it would spread.

This is not the modern world. There's no internet, tv, radio, POST MAIL, NOTHING. Information does not just want to be free. The truth does not automatically triumph over lies and misinformation. It would not trickle down and saturate every level of society because a few people know. That is ludicrous.

So you're proposing that just because there's no instant communication, scholars wouldn't discuss the fact that all the Grey Wardens that finished the Archdemon coincidentally died. It would just disappear. Once again, are you kidding me?

[rumination888]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Considering the history and how the Blight can only be ended with Grey Warden, I don't see why people wouldn't accept "only Grey Warden can kill an Archdemon". They could say that they have a special training/joining that is often lethal but allows them to fight the darkspawn.
Just like the Templar vs the mages, and I don't see people freaking about the Templars, do I ?

People do accept that only Grey Wardens can kill an Archdemon.
Except, as has been pointed out repeatedly thoughout this thread, NO ONE HAS SEEN THE ARCHDEMON.

[Randy1012]

We also need to keep in mind that at the time of DA:O, it's been four centuries since the last Blight. In a medieval world that probably has low literacy rates and many commoners lead their lives based on religious superstition, a lot of truth can be smudged and erased from history. The best that people have to work with are rumors and hearsay. Only those with access to primary sources of information (basically, people educated by the Chantry, and some of the nobility--though the average Fereldan noble is probably not as well educated as the average Orlesian noble) can know what really happened in the past, and even then, it's not guaranteed to be completely honest and accurate.

[Randy1012]

Serogon wrote...

Shady314 wrote...

Serogon wrote...
Knowledge spreads. If someone who specialized in Grey Warden history noticed it, it would spread.

This is not the modern world. There's no internet, tv, radio, POST MAIL, NOTHING. Information does not just want to be free. The truth does not automatically triumph over lies and misinformation. It would not trickle down and saturate every level of society because a few people know. That is ludicrous.

So you're proposing that just because there's no instant communication, scholars wouldn't discuss the fact that all the Grey Wardens that finished the Archdemon coincidentally died. It would just disappear. Once again, are you kidding me?

That one is incredibly easy to explain. The archdemon is a dragon. The Grey Warden just died of injuries sustained in the battle. Nobody would question that.

[Poubo]

Serogon wrote...

Shady314 wrote...

Serogon wrote...
I don't mean every random peasant, I mean the higher up people. The nobles. Scholars. Educated people. Etcetera.

Oh you mean the smallest minority there is in a medieval society.  Yes common knowledge indeed. And no most of them would have no idea. Not every scholar is dedicated to the Grey Wardens. Not every noble is interested in history let alone Grey Warden history. People love the myths and tales. Not the details.

Knowledge spreads. If someone who specialized in Grey Warden history noticed it, it would spread.

how exactly? word of mouth? Heard of chinese whispers? a lot of things are based on speculation, even with our current standard of technology, one doesnt truely know what / how / why things happened 400 years ago. books get destroyed, people die. stories become legends and myths.

the last blight was 400 years ago. books / texts / scrolls would be in such a worn condition and even if they were re-written every 20 - 40 years doesnt mean things would change slight.

a lot of history isnt true, its what we're led to believe. Do you believe all the ancient greek mythology? if someone came up to me and say "hey my friends a minotaur" would you really believe them?

in DAO terms, if someone came up to you and said that your hero is nothing more than a darkspawn... would you believe them? even the end battle cinematic with explosion covers up the fact that it was the killing blow that kills you... its just the surge of magical energy after the demon dies, and unfortunately someone got caught in it.

[Shady314]

Serogon wrote...
So you're proposing that just because there's no instant communication, scholars wouldn't discuss the fact that all the Grey Wardens that finished the Archdemon coincidentally died. It would just disappear. Once again, are you kidding me?

Enough. Your idealistic view of the world sickens me. If just one person learns the truth then over time EVERYONE(or at least many people) will learn it? Give me a break. Even NOW that isn't true. But you think it's a given in a feudal society?

Here's all you need to know. There ARE reasons to keep it a secret. The Grey Wardens have decided those are good reasons and they are going to keep it a secret. You disagree. But you don't get to decide whether or not the Grey Wardens keep it a secret. So...... that's all there is to it. 

[Serogon]

Shady314 wrote...

Serogon wrote...
So you're proposing that just because there's no instant communication, scholars wouldn't discuss the fact that all the Grey Wardens that finished the Archdemon coincidentally died. It would just disappear. Once again, are you kidding me?

Enough. Your idealistic view of the world sickens me. If just one person learns the truth then over time EVERYONE(or at least many people) will learn it? Give me a break. Even NOW that isn't true. But you think it's a given in a feudal society?

Here's all you need to know. There ARE reasons to keep it a secret. The Grey Wardens have decided those are good reasons and they are going to keep it a secret. You disagree. But you don't get to decide whether or not the Grey Wardens keep it a secret. So...... that's all there is to it. 

It's an idealistic view of the world to think that scholars would discuss that every Grey Warden who finishes the Archdemon dies? Are you a ****ing idiot? Also, were all of the Archdemon killings so private? With just Wardens there? Wouldn't SOMEONE have seen it and thought "Hey, when he stabbed the thing, energy shot through him and then he died! "

[Poubo]

Serogon wrote...

Shady314 wrote...

Serogon wrote...
So you're proposing that just because there's no instant communication, scholars wouldn't discuss the fact that all the Grey Wardens that finished the Archdemon coincidentally died. It would just disappear. Once again, are you kidding me?

Enough. Your idealistic view of the world sickens me. If just one person learns the truth then over time EVERYONE(or at least many people) will learn it? Give me a break. Even NOW that isn't true. But you think it's a given in a feudal society?

Here's all you need to know. There ARE reasons to keep it a secret. The Grey Wardens have decided those are good reasons and they are going to keep it a secret. You disagree. But you don't get to decide whether or not the Grey Wardens keep it a secret. So...... that's all there is to it. 

It's an idealistic view of the world to think that scholars would discuss that every Grey Warden who finishes the Archdemon dies? Are you a ****ing idiot? Also, were all of the Archdemon killings so private? With just Wardens there? Wouldn't SOMEONE have seen it and thought "Hey, when he stabbed the thing, energy shot through him and then he died! "

look at that scene again, the surge of magical energys being channelled in to the demon at the end that causes the explosion, Bann Teagon looks up and believes everyone died.

its very plausable that everyone was considered "lucky to be living" after such a surge of magical energy.

[Serogon]

Poubo wrote...

Serogon wrote...

Shady314 wrote...

Serogon wrote...
So you're proposing that just because there's no instant communication, scholars wouldn't discuss the fact that all the Grey Wardens that finished the Archdemon coincidentally died. It would just disappear. Once again, are you kidding me?

Enough. Your idealistic view of the world sickens me. If just one person learns the truth then over time EVERYONE(or at least many people) will learn it? Give me a break. Even NOW that isn't true. But you think it's a given in a feudal society?

Here's all you need to know. There ARE reasons to keep it a secret. The Grey Wardens have decided those are good reasons and they are going to keep it a secret. You disagree. But you don't get to decide whether or not the Grey Wardens keep it a secret. So...... that's all there is to it. 

It's an idealistic view of the world to think that scholars would discuss that every Grey Warden who finishes the Archdemon dies? Are you a ****ing idiot? Also, were all of the Archdemon killings so private? With just Wardens there? Wouldn't SOMEONE have seen it and thought "Hey, when he stabbed the thing, energy shot through him and then he died! "

look at that scene again, the surge of magical energys being channelled in to the demon at the end that causes the explosion, Bann Teagon looks up and believes everyone died.

its very plausable that everyone was considered "lucky to be living" after such a surge of magical energy.

My point was the "not that private" part. As in with other soldiers there. Not on top of a tower with some guy half a mile away. The energy went through the Warden specifically before exploding.

[Shady314]

Serogon wrote...
It's an idealistic view of the world to think that scholars would discuss that every Grey Warden who finishes the Archdemon dies? Are you a ****ing idiot?

Watch your personal attacks or you will be reported.
You are changing your argument. First it was common knowledge. Then common knowledge among the well off. Then it was historical esoterica. Now it's a discussion point among scholars. (eye roll) Fine I'll give you that.

Also, were all of the Archdemon killings so private? With just Wardens there? Wouldn't SOMEONE have seen it and thought "Hey, when he stabbed the thing, energy shot through him and then he died! "

A battle 400 years ago or longer is a rather chaotic mess. You think people have videotapes of it? Read plenty of other posters with very good points about historical accuracy and knowledge of events 400 years past.

EDIT: Oh but from your position on top of the tower few people would have seen the killing blow. They would definitely have not seen any energy channel through me. They just saw the magical explosion unless they were up on the roof with me.

Modifié par Shady314, 22 novembre 2009 - 10:32 .

[Randy1012]

An archdemon, an Old God, just died. Why would a giant beam of energy shooting up into the sky be so strange in such an instance?

[Shady314]

Serogon wrote...
My point was the "not that private" part. As in with other soldiers there. Not on top of a tower with some guy half a mile away. The energy went through the Warden specifically before exploding.

Very good. (Eye roll) 400 years ago a bunch of soldiers fighting for their lives probably saw an archdemon explode. Clearly this would mean everyone knows the Grey Warden that lands the killing blow automatically dies. Clearly.

[Serogon]

Shady314 wrote...

Serogon wrote...
It's an idealistic view of the world to think that scholars would discuss that every Grey Warden who finishes the Archdemon dies? Are you a ****ing idiot?

Watch your personal attacks or you will be reported.
You are changing your argument. First it was common knowledge. Then common knowledge among the well off. Then it was historical esoterica. Now it's a discussion point among scholars. (eye roll) Fine I'll give you that.

Also, were all of the Archdemon killings so private? With just Wardens there? Wouldn't SOMEONE have seen it and thought "Hey, when he stabbed the thing, energy shot through him and then he died! "

A battle 400 years ago or longer is a rather chaotic mess. You think people have videotapes of it? Read plenty of other posters with very good points about historical accuracy and knowledge of events 400 years past.

First, I never meant to imply common knowledge among random people. And scholars discussing it would inevitably lead to educated people knowing it. And second, records of it would be there. Witnesses would be wondering what happened. Do you really think that people would see energy coursing through the Warden immediately after they kill the Archdemon, then an explosion, and think that killing the Archdemon wouldn't be the cause? And when people realized it was the cause, it wouldn't just fade away.

[Serogon]

Randy1083 wrote...

An archdemon, an Old God, just died. Why would a giant beam of energy shooting up into the sky be so strange in such an instance?

The point was it going through the Warden, then shooting into the sky, then exploding...

[Akka le Vil]

rumination888 wrote...

People do accept that only Grey Wardens can kill an Archdemon.
Except, as has been pointed out repeatedly thoughout this thread, NO ONE HAS SEEN THE ARCHDEMON.

How is this even relevant to the point of the thread, which is about "why do they keep this and this secret ?" ?
Why does the fact someone has seen or not an archdemon have any bearing with why some part of the Grey Warden are secrets ?

[Shady314]

Serogon wrote...
First, I never meant to imply common knowledge among random people.

Well you did.

And scholars discussing it would inevitably lead to educated people knowing it.

??????? Real life proves you wrong.

And second, records of it would be there. Witnesses would be wondering what happened.

Again so what? Unless they peruse records 400 years old to most people it's the first time this has happened. I lived anyways.

Do you really think that people would see energy coursing through the Warden immediately after they kill the Archdemon, then an explosion, and think that killing the Archdemon wouldn't be the cause?

No one could possibly see that if they weren't on the roof with you.
People probably would think killing the Archdemon caused the explosion.... Whats your point?

And when people realized it was the cause, it wouldn't just fade away.

Because the only thing anyone ever talks about, thinks about or cares about is Grey Wardens? Or more specifically the Grey Wardens that are credited with killing an Archdemon?

[Serogon]

[quote]Shady314 wrote...

[quote]Serogon wrote...

[quote]Do you really think that people would see energy coursing through the Warden immediately after they kill the Archdemon, then an explosion, and think that killing the Archdemon wouldn't be the cause?[/quote]
No one could possibly see that if they weren't on the roof with you.
People probably would think killing the Archdemon caused the explosion.... Whats your point?
/quote]

Are you even bothering to read my posts at this point? I said previous battles in which it's not on top of a tower with a couple Wardens.

[Randy1012]

Serogon wrote...

Randy1083 wrote...

An archdemon, an Old God, just died. Why would a giant beam of energy shooting up into the sky be so strange in such an instance?

The point was it going through the Warden, then shooting into the sky, then exploding...

I understand your point, but how many people would immediately think "Oh, that light must have gone through the Warden because he had a terrible connection with the archdemon," exactly? It's far more likelier that they would just chalk it up to the archdemon being a powerful magical being and the Grey Warden being a mortal being who simply couldn't withstand the energies pummeling his body.

[Poubo]

Serogon wrote...

Shady314 wrote...

Serogon wrote...
It's an idealistic view of the world to think that scholars would discuss that every Grey Warden who finishes the Archdemon dies? Are you a ****ing idiot?

Watch your personal attacks or you will be reported.
You are changing your argument. First it was common knowledge. Then common knowledge among the well off. Then it was historical esoterica. Now it's a discussion point among scholars. (eye roll) Fine I'll give you that.

Also, were all of the Archdemon killings so private? With just Wardens there? Wouldn't SOMEONE have seen it and thought "Hey, when he stabbed the thing, energy shot through him and then he died! "

A battle 400 years ago or longer is a rather chaotic mess. You think people have videotapes of it? Read plenty of other posters with very good points about historical accuracy and knowledge of events 400 years past.

First, I never meant to imply common knowledge among random people. And scholars discussing it would inevitably lead to educated people knowing it. And second, records of it would be there. Witnesses would be wondering what happened. Do you really think that people would see energy coursing through the Warden immediately after they kill the Archdemon, then an explosion, and think that killing the Archdemon wouldn't be the cause? And when people realized it was the cause, it wouldn't just fade away.

right, and soldiers never get traumatised from battle and stories arent thrown around campfires; what people see and what they want to believe are very different things. there were no scholars watching the battle on the tower, almost all the soldiers died on the rooftop with (depending on your playthrough) a handful of people such as the first enchanter and arl eamon. you see Leliana and someone else watching as you stab the demon (killing blow, anyone could do it doesn't necessarily mean that the blow killed you, just the surge of energy afer) and anyone watching would just see the following:

• you run up and slice / stab the demon
• a large beam of magical energy reigns down from the sky and causes a huge explosion probably knocking people unconcious.
• they wake up and see you laying there dead. now what do you think theyll believe? you died because the arch demon went inside you or the magical energy that almost killed everyone else managed to kill you because you were so close.

[Serogon]

People, I'll say again. With the people seeing the energy going through the Warden, I am not talking about the battle on the tower. I'm talking about previous ones that did not take place on a secluded area with just a couple people there who already knew.

[Shady314]

Serogon wrote...
Are you even bothering to read my posts at this point?

Sadly I am. Though you have veered off of your own topic.

said previous battles in which it's not on top of a tower with a couple Wardens.

Yes. Battles from 400 years ago or longer. We all know what great sources of information those are. <_<

Modifié par Shady314, 22 novembre 2009 - 10:42 .

[Randy1012]

Yeah, we know what you're saying, and we're giving you plenty of valid explanations.

[Serogon]

[quote]Shady314 wrote...

[quote]Serogon wrote...
Are you even bothering to read my posts at this point?
Sadly I am. Though you have veered off of your own topic.

[quote] said previous battles in which it's not on top of a tower with a couple Wardens. [/quote]
Yes. Battles from 400 years ago or longer. We all know what great sources of information those are. <_<
[/quote]

The point was that people back then would see it and realize it back then, where it would then be known... and I actually can't remember now, how did we get on to the topic of people already knowing it?