20 réponses à ce sujet

[Gervaise]

I have only played through Legacy once so far, so I may have missed something explaining this.  As I understood it, the fortress was built by the Grey Wardens and a trap laid for Corypheus.   Was the trap connected with the Altar?   Or did they discover an altar to Dumat and built their trap around it, suspecting that Corypheus used it?  

Otherwise I am unclear as to why there is an altar there, not to mention the various items associated with it.    As this is post first blight, there was no Chantry or even the Chant of Light and some people may still have worshipped Dumat, although records state that the many of the populace had already lost faith in the old gods and started attacking priests and temples because they recognised the archdemon as Dumat and he had turned against them.   The grey wardens had repudiated their allegiance to everything except destruction of the darkspawn, and Dumat worship would have been the first to go, although it might have been fairly easy to come by the paraphenalia of worship to set up a trap altar.  However, since the altar responds to the offerings, it has to be more than just a lure.   It is deep underground so hardly likely to be a place of worship pre-darkspawn.   Was there a group of dwarven Dumat worshipers?

If this was a place of worship for Corypheus, why did he chose this location?  Why was he not aware that the archdemon had fallen and thus Dumat would not be able to answer his calls?  (At the end of Legacy he does call out to Dumat but that may be because he is disorientated after so long in statis).  In any case, since his god had failed him so badly in not giving the Magisters what he promised and it ended so disasterously, why did Corypheus still have faith?  Did he think that he had offended in some way and was trying to put it right?       Who put the amulet in the altar that you are rewarded with if you do the ritual?

[esper]

If Corypheus went into the Black city and was thrown out he did it before the Old Gods disappeared. And from his whole very confused speech I will say that: No, Corypheus was not aware of what had happened to the old gods. (He demands to be taken to the first acolyte and clearly thinks that the dwarves still rules the Deep Roads.)
Also from the way he could wield the statues and was familiar with them I would say that the Grey Warden simply build a prison from the facility that was already there, and which properly was some sort of temple to Dumat.

[DKJaigen]

Because they where former tevinter soldiers that worshiped the old gods. The fact that a god does horrible thing to you doesn't mean people will stop paying tribute to a god. Look at fen'harel. Despite screwing up the elves. The elves still pay respect to him.

[TEWR]

The voice that prays to Dumat at the altar sounded a lot like Corypheus, didn't it?

[Gervaise]

Building an altar to an old god that you are trying to kill does seem a bit wierd. Give us the power to kill you. Doesn't make much sense to me. The Grey Wardens are fighting the darkspawn so are hardly likely to worship was is now essentially a darkspawn god - though I suppose those who are answering the Calling might. I suppose it is also possible that the altar came about through the influence of Corypheus on the minds of Grey Wardens after his imprisonment. Actually that would make sense - those answering the Calling instead of going into the Deep Roads, end up caught in the prison and construct an altar to Dumat because Corypheus hopes that his god will free him.

However, the notes definitely say that the Wardens recognised him as an intelligent, thinking Darkspawn who is presumably able to resist the call of the old gods and therefore must have spent some time interacting with the world after being cast out of the golden/dark city. I suppose a lot depends on how much time passed between the ejection from the city and the wakening of Dumat. But the Grey Wardens only came into being well after the First Blight had begun so Corypheus could not have been imprisoned until after Dumat was released into the world as the Archdemon. Therefore it follows that he should have been aware of it, even if he wasn't aware of his death.

People do stop paying tribute if the god doesn't deliver and particularly if the god turns against you. Codexes make it clear that the old faith was crumbling even before Andraste appeared and this was because of the First Blight and the fact the Dumat attacked them (in the form of the archdemon). I don't think the elves worship Fen'harel in the sense of making offerings to him. The statue is to remind them of his role in their downfall and ensure that their people are aware of him - they invoke a prayer of protection against him.

[Gervaise]

Further thought - may be the altar is linked to Corypheus in such a way that he is immediately aware of anyone interacting with it - whether to conduct the ritual or not - and this allows him to increase his mental projection influence on them. I note that is only after going beyond the area of the altar that Anders finally flips due to being unable to resist Corypheus.

[Urzon]

People in Thedas still worship the Maker, and he left and turned away from them long ago. Then he came back; stuck around for awhile, and then he left again. So yes, it isnt that far of a reach that people in Thedas still would have worshipped the Old Gods after they got corrupted. Even more so since it isn't the Old Gods fault they got tainted (that we know of), it's the darkspawns'.

That and, i wouldn't say they the elves worship Fen'harel the same way the Chantry worships the Maker. The offer tributes in a way to try and please him/it. They same way someone might offer money to a mugger. If they give him enough hopefully he will leave them alone.

Further thought - may be the altar is linked to Corypheus in such a way that he is immediately aware of anyone interacting with it - whether to conduct the ritual or not - and this allows him to increase his mental projection influence on them. I note that is only after going beyond the area of the altar that Anders finally flips due to being unable to resist Corypheus.

I think it's Bioware foreshadowing for the future. We really don't know if the first Archdemon was Dumat or not. The Chantry/Tevinter guessed. They thought since the Blight lasted for 200 years it must be Dumat, since he is the most powerful Old God. Since the alter was still active and accepting tributes, we might be seeing Dumat later down the line.

Modifié par Urzon, 05 octobre 2011 - 11:58 .

[Wulfram]

Loyal worshippers of the Dumat that was might still wish to destroy the twisted thing he had become.

[esper]

Once again. I don't think that the Grey Wardens built the altar (or the prison for that matter). They simply used what was there to their own purpose.

And Anders flips wherever you have skipped the alter or not (remember side quest). He starts talking about Corypheues after the first seal.

[brad_blacksmith]

It's a bit off topic but I think the altar have something to do with the fight with Corypheus. If you did the offering Corypheus says something about that, like "I gave you the sacrifices Lord now give me power", or something to that effect. I'm not entirely sure, but I think that if you destroy the altar he doesn't say that.

[esper]

He said that I all three of my playthroughs and I am sure that my spirit healer destroyed the thing.

[Gervaise]

There is a slight difference with the Maker in that the Chantry teach that he left them because they turned from him to worship other gods and that if everyone accepts the Chant of Light he will return, so they have a reason to continue to follow him and offer prayers even if he appears not to respond to them. I'm not saying this is a very reassuring belief but it is why they keep doing it. In the same way, the Dalish still revere their gods and pray to them, even though they teach that they are locked away and unable to interact with them, because their religion states that if they are faithful, ultimately the gods will return.

We do not know exactly what the ancient Tevinter believed but it seems that the interaction with the gods was more evident and immediate in terms of the rewards for devotion. For this reason, when the rewards stop coming, or the god starts attacking them, they are far more likely to lose faith. The codexes do record this as happening or at least destroying temples and killing priests because evidently they are no longer acting as successful intermediaries. The people of the Anderfels are described as being the most devotedly religious in all Thedas and that is where the Grey Wardens came from. I should imagine it was after repeated devotions to Dumat failed to solve the problem of the darkspawn and their now insane god attacking them, that the Anderfels decided to take matters into their own hands and form the Grey Wardens. Now there is no reason why they wouldn't have continued to worship the other gods, since they were simply unresponsive (one must assume), not actually attacking them but I think Dumat would no longer have been an object of devotion.

[brad_blacksmith]

esper wrote...

He said that I all three of my playthroughs and I am sure that my spirit healer destroyed the thing.

Okey dokey My bad I guess

[BigEvil]

I could be wrong but I sort of got the impression that the prison was built by the Dwarves to contain Malvernis originally and the Grey Wardens adapted/expanded it later. I'd imagine the altar was already there before the Grey Wardens were even involved with the place.

[Gervaise]

Which brings me back to my original point - if it predated the Grey Wardens, who put it there? Why did people go deep underground to worship their gods? Did they already know they were imprisoned down there? Was it put there by dwarves? And what about those statues that Corypheus uses against you? Did the wardens originally put them in and he knew how to use them because they used them against him or was he the constructor?

Thinking back to the primative thaig, Varric comments how odd it is to find no sign of paragon statues and the ancestor worship the dwarves now engage in and claim to have always done so. Also we are never really given a chance to properly examine the idol but I do my best and it is definitely humanoid but not dwarf like. So do these deep ruins in both places have a connection to a strange sect of dwarves that the others know nothing about, or were the Tevinter engaged in activities in the Deep Roads long before the Darkspawn emerged - for example were they already trying to liberate their gods?

[esper]

@Gervaise. There is a lot of things about the acient dwarven kingdom we don't know - and the pre-darkspawn Deep Road in generel, but I don't think they were on such bad terms with Tevinter - I imagine that the mages wanted to keep a good trade route open with the dwarves because of the lyrium, but I also think that the Tevinter and dwarves were working together on many things - arcitecture being one of them.
Also were I the only one irked by Corypheues 'slaves to the dwarves' comment?

[Gervaise]

My dog starting barking just as Corypheus started his speech so I think I missed the dwarf bit - could you enlighten me please. I just went back and discovered I overwrote the save immediately before releasing him so my previous save is some way back. However, replaying that Janeka speech made me think a bit. When you ask why Corypheus would want to help against the Blight, she says:
"Their search for the old gods came at a terrible price for him and his people."
So does the "search" of "his people" refer to the Darkspawn and how they tunnel for the old gods, or I am right in my assumption above that they had been seeking to release their gods from imprisonment prior to their invasion of the golden city and their actions were connected with that goal?
I think the codexes about Tevinter do say that they were the first to actively engage in trade with the dwarves and were on good terms with them, so there may have been many things they did jointly and dwarf scouts would have been helpful when the Tevinter were exploring underground.

[esper]

Gervaise wrote...

My dog starting barking just as Corypheus started his speech so I think I missed the dwarf bit - could you enlighten me please. I just went back and discovered I overwrote the save immediately before releasing him so my previous save is some way back. However, replaying that Janeka speech made me think a bit. When you ask why Corypheus would want to help against the Blight, she says:
"Their search for the old gods came at a terrible price for him and his people."
So does the "search" of "his people" refer to the Darkspawn and how they tunnel for the old gods, or I am right in my assumption above that they had been seeking to release their gods from imprisonment prior to their invasion of the golden city and their actions were connected with that goal?
I think the codexes about Tevinter do say that they were the first to actively engage in trade with the dwarves and were on good terms with them, so there may have been many things they did jointly and dwarf scouts would have been helpful when the Tevinter were exploring underground.

Janeka referes to the darkspawn seeking for the old gods. The Architecht (killed or not) expresses that he wants to stop the Darkspawn from seeking the Old Gods and because a blight kills many Darkspawn - and by Legacy the Architechts exstience is/was known.

As for the dwarv-line it is when Coryphues is making wild guess as to who Hawke is I think it went something like this:
  "Be you imperial citizien? Slaves to the dwarves then? Whoever you be you owe fealty to a magister of Tevinter, on you knees."
I don't know how much to make off it, but it does irk me a little.

[Gervaise]

Yes, that was the bit the dog drowned out - I just got the fealty to a magister onwards. Interesting, it sounds as though the dwarves had slaves in those days too. Each game we get a bit more ancient history that doesn't seem to square with what modern representatives claim about their ancestors. I really would like to get to root around in Tevinter or have been able to question Corypheus a bit more once he got his faculties back (but of course Hawke wasn't meant to notice the body switch). I'm looking forward to the next book in the hope it will fill in some of the gaps - at least with regard to background to mage/templar war in the rest of Thedas - may be DA3 will see more of Corypheus - since we couldn't affect the final outcome (so no one can complain apart from the identity of the person he left through), it seems likely.

[esper]

I personally thinks thsat Cory will pull a Sofphia fight in da3 and no more sadly - since I can't see how he can be freed if Hawke isn't there to bleed for the seal and it is an optional dlc. (I hope for more, because I have so many question I want to ask him once he have a fair chance to adapt to the, for him, new Thedas.)

[TEWR]

If the Dwarves kept slaves and were once mages as many of us forumites believe, could they be responsible for blood magic being first known and not demons/Old Gods/BLAH? And the red lyrium ties into this?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 octobre 2011 - 10:56 .