250 réponses à ce sujet

[jeweledleah]

SkyeHawk89 wrote...

Are you one of those people that hate everything, it kinda sounds like it. If you don't like them that your problem, don't watch it than. I know I'm a Liaramancer I enjoy and like Garrus, Tali and other characters as well. This is what I kinda mean. I hate it when people don't like some things they conplain and whine, they ruin it for the others and long time fans especially characters fans.

no one is asking to ruin your enjoyment.  you can still be friends with everyone.  what some of us would like to see is an option NOT to be friends. beleive me, most of us don't want to see another horizon where you are forced int oa falling out and an argument, whether you like it or not.  all we want is options.  option to be a friend.. or not to be one.

and I'm sorry, but "just don't talk to them"  is not a valid solution.

[Sajuro]

jeweledleah wrote...

SkyeHawk89 wrote...

Are you one of those people that hate everything, it kinda sounds like it. If you don't like them that your problem, don't watch it than. I know I'm a Liaramancer I enjoy and like Garrus, Tali and other characters as well. This is what I kinda mean. I hate it when people don't like some things they conplain and whine, they ruin it for the others and long time fans especially characters fans.

no one is asking to ruin your enjoyment.  you can still be friends with everyone.  what some of us would like to see is an option NOT to be friends. beleive me, most of us don't want to see another horizon where you are forced int oa falling out and an argument, whether you like it or not.  all we want is options.  option to be a friend.. or not to be one.

and I'm sorry, but "just don't talk to them"  is not a valid solution.

Yes it is, I didn't talk to Kaiden for two playthroughs of Mass Effect 1, and he doesn't think I'm his friend, because he's dead.

[wizardryforever]

jeweledleah wrote...
and I'm sorry, but "just don't talk to them"  is not a valid solution.

And do you make a habit of rountinely talking to people you dislike in real life?  More than you have to I mean?  In character, why would Shepard talk to someone that he doesn't like if he/she doesn't have to?  If you want to not be friends, but keep things professional, then don't take the "friendly" options.  Keep a professional distance from your crew if you want to.  So when you talk to Tali after doing her loyalty mission and she has a fever, take the neutral option of "I hope you feel better soon," or when talking to Miranda about her sister, tell her that you hope it all works out.  These are things professional acquaintances would say to one another.

[jeweledleah]

wizardryforever wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...
and I'm sorry, but "just don't talk to them"  is not a valid solution.

And do you make a habit of rountinely talking to people you dislike in real life?  More than you have to I mean?  In character, why would Shepard talk to someone that he doesn't like if he/she doesn't have to?  If you want to not be friends, but keep things professional, then don't take the "friendly" options.  Keep a professional distance from your crew if you want to.  So when you talk to Tali after doing her loyalty mission and she has a fever, take the neutral option of "I hope you feel better soon," or when talking to Miranda about her sister, tell her that you hope it all works out.  These are things professional acquaintances would say to one another.

if for example those people I dislike are also the people I have to work with - you bet I talk to them.  I'm just not buddies with them.  I won't make any claims for others, but I want to have an option of professional sounding responses, something that curt but not necessarily - my buddy!  my bro! >_>  sometimes those options exist.  other times?  they don't.

I wanted an option not to hug Liara on some of my Shepards.  or at least push her away or hell even act uncomfortable.  yet my shepard is forced to hug her back.  I wanted an option to move away from Shiala.  yet my shepards, all of them smile at her.  which is especialy fun when your LI is standing ...right...there.  I wanted an option for some of my Shepards not to sound so damn happy to see Garrus... and he is one of my favorites.

there's a certain sense of certain characters being buddies no matter what.  Jocker, Garrus, Liara, Wrex are some of the worst ones IMO, becasue they get the cutscenes in which you have no power over how your Shepard responds.  my renegade Shepard didn't save Wrex because they were best buds, she saved him becasue she needed every able gun.  they were already outnumbered as it is.  and yet, here he is all - Shepard my friend, and she's grinning back at him... and don't even get me started on "LIARA IS IN THERE!"  it diminishes the role playing.

all we want is an option not to be forced into this

Modifié par jeweledleah, 09 octobre 2011 - 04:08 .

[Golden Owl]

wizardryforever wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...
Doesn't always work that way...try talking to Miranda without "Tell me about yourself Miranda" if all your after is info on Cerberus..."Placing you on the team was the best thing tIM did" or the alternative "Your jealous"....Not much room to move there.

In which case you pick the more professional option.  Do you consider the empty compliment or the baseless insult to be more professional?  The first option always seemed like Shepard was just being nice, not that he/she really believed that.  At least that's what Shepard's tone implies.

Both are as far from professional as can be gotten....suck up or be a cad....Dean is spot on, we need professional dialog choices....As for Shep just being nice, his a Marine not a 'feel good' therapist, I expect him to speak like one.

You and Dean are both acting like such choices are completely unavailable 100% of the time, which is simply not true.  10% is closer, though even that is being generous.  Should there be consistency?  Yes, of course.  So the professional options that are there 90% of the time should be there 100% of the time.  But it is far from the widespread problem you're painting it as.

I can't speak for Dean myself...though I guessing we may be after the same thing....As for me, the percentages are rot Wizard, unless your speaking percentage over all, can remain fairly professional with certain squaddies....Per squaddie dialog though, there are those squaddies with which either a "Love in" or a jerk seems to be mandatory...What is so hard about asking Miranda for info on Cerberus, then the "Goodbye" option...In fact the "Goodbye" option would be better than the nothing we are given now in so many instances....Though a professional (neutral) approach would be the holy grail for RPG'ing without having to try and appease every like and dislike of various squaddies among us gamers.

Modifié par Golden Owl, 09 octobre 2011 - 04:26 .

[Golden Owl]

wizardryforever wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...
and I'm sorry, but "just don't talk to them"  is not a valid solution.

And do you make a habit of rountinely talking to people you dislike in real life?  More than you have to I mean?  In character, why would Shepard talk to someone that he doesn't like if he/she doesn't have to?  If you want to not be friends, but keep things professional, then don't take the "friendly" options.  Keep a professional distance from your crew if you want to.  So when you talk to Tali after doing her loyalty mission and she has a fever, take the neutral option of "I hope you feel better soon," or when talking to Miranda about her sister, tell her that you hope it all works out.  These are things professional acquaintances would say to one another.

No matter how each Shep is RP'ed as to their likes and dislikes among squaddies....a professional Shep is not going to ignore his/her team, everyones lives depends on Sheps ability to keep the team focussed and on track...it's professionalism to keep an eye on his squad, thus intereaction is a mandatory and professional move.

[Lucifer_Cheney]

Even though I play mostly as a Paragon who tries to be friends with my crew and squad-mates, I completely understand and agree with those that believe ME3 shouldn't have Shepard automatically befriend them if he/she doesn't want to. Realistically however, its only logical Shepard would establish some sort of working relationship with the crew and his/her squad.

[wizardryforever]

jeweledleah wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...
and I'm sorry, but "just don't talk to them"  is not a valid solution.

And do you make a habit of rountinely talking to people you dislike in real life?  More than you have to I mean?  In character, why would Shepard talk to someone that he doesn't like if he/she doesn't have to?  If you want to not be friends, but keep things professional, then don't take the "friendly" options.  Keep a professional distance from your crew if you want to.  So when you talk to Tali after doing her loyalty mission and she has a fever, take the neutral option of "I hope you feel better soon," or when talking to Miranda about her sister, tell her that you hope it all works out.  These are things professional acquaintances would say to one another.

if for example those people I dislike are also the people I have to work with - you bet I talk to them.  I'm just not buddies with them.  I won't make any claims for others, but I want to have an option of professional sounding responses, something that curt but not necessarily - my buddy!  my bro! >_>  sometimes those options exist.  other times?  they don't.

Like I said, more than you have to.  You do what you must to maintain a working relationship with such people when you must, but otherwise, do you socialize with them?  That seems overly masochistic if you do.

I wanted an option not to hug Liara on some of my Shepards.  or at least push her away or hell even act uncomfortable.  yet my shepard is forced to hug her back.  I wanted an option to move away from Shiala.  yet my shepards, all of them smile at her.  which is especialy fun when your LI is standing ...right...there.  I wanted an option for some of my Shepards not to sound so damn happy to see Garrus... and he is one of my favorites.

There are plenty of valid reasons why Shepard would do these things even if he doesn't care for these people.  What about avoiding an awkward situation by returning Liara's hug?  Or smiling back at Shiala in a platonic way?  And Garrus?  You could just be glad it is a familiar face, instead of an unknown someone who is unhinged enough to try to change Omega.  On the whole I agree with your sentiment, but these moments are pretty few in the grand scheme of things.

there's a certain sense of certain characters being buddies no matter what.  Jocker, Garrus, Liara, Wrex are some of the worst ones IMO, becasue they get the cutscenes in which you have no power over how your Shepard responds.  my renegade Shepard didn't save Wrex because they were best buds, she saved him becasue she needed every able gun.  they were already outnumbered as it is.  and yet, here he is all - Shepard my friend, and she's grinning back at him... and don't even get me started on "LIARA IS IN THERE!"  it diminishes the role playing.

all we want is an option not to be forced into this

As others have said, there's no reason why said characters can't think of Shepard as a friend, even if Shepard doesn't think of them as such.  One-sided friendships exist in reality as well, and you don't really have to be friends with someone to be at least a little concerned when they could be dead.

And here's the crux.  "Forced."  I always find it funny when people use this word in context of a persona that is not theirs, nor is it entirely their own creation.  Shepard has things about his/her personality that cannot be changed, technically speaking, you're "forced" to become a Spectre, to side with Cerberus, to hunt down Saren and the Collectors, and to see the necessity of doing all of the above.  And when you get right down to it, roleplaying has been and most likely always will be limited in all RPGs to date.  There's rules you must follow, a storyline that needs to be followed (some games are looser than others), and all in all a reason to play the game.  "Force" never enters into it, since at the end of the day, it is Bioware's story that you get to pick which branch to go down.  It is a game, and like any other story, if you don't like it, don't read it or watch it or play it.

*gets down off of soap box*

[Youknow]

 I hope there aren't canon friends. It really bugs me that the game forces you to be friends with certain characters. For multiple reasons, and I'll explain them since I'm here. 

 If the game is going to bother to have dialogue options and optional romance, it really doesn't make sense why friendship isn't optional as well. Having multiple dialogue options that inevitably lead to the same path doesn't really save much time... Quite the opposite. The reality is that it's actually a time waster. With static dialogue, the other dialogue options which lead to the same path could be used to flesh out the current conversation (as well as others) more. Possibly even fleshing out relationships with other people more. Having forced friendships distinctly makes a rift between the player and the avatar. If Sheperd is supposed to be a static character where the character only lightly influences their actions, fine, and if Sheperd is supposed to be a complete link for the player to interact with the world, that's fine too, but you can't have both-- which is where this problem is occurring. In ME2, both are happening within the same game. Which is what makes the whole deal so frustrating. 

If Sheperd were a noncustomizable character and had a huge obsession with Liara, if would annoy you, the player, in a "I don't see what he sees in her fashion," but here, when your Sheperd does this without your consent, it irritates you, because it has effectively removed your control of your own actions. Each Sheperd is distinctly unique, and thus should be allowed to make some unique quips on certain subjects. Having the choice to save the galaxy is a fair choice to be forced, as without being forced, there's no real story. Having a choice forced that is by no means necessarily to the advancement of the main plot is just a slap to the face if one doesn't agree with it. Since this is a RPG, this is a big time no-no.  It's the equivalent to playing an action game, and your character does whatever they want to do WHILE in the middle of gameplay and not in a cutscene. 

Finally, there's no real reason for the game to not keep track of the dialogue and have maneuvers based on how you treated them. Like if Jack wasn't talked to at all in ME2, she'd have respect for you because you stayed the heck out of her way and only called her to shoot stuff-- loyal or not. If there was one thing DA2 did right, it was that, and even the "auto-answers" were tweaked to answer in methods that you had played previously. Why doesn't that happen here? 

For once, I'm not going to say this is unnecessary whining. As I play this game for the combination of RPing and Action. There are much better shooters out there, and even some better RPGs to boot. But I'll be hard pressed to find one that can do both of them decently. If the game isn't delivering RP aspects, I may as well play a more refined shooter.

[naledgeborn]

I agree with this. The only thing I can overlook is Liara being obsessed with Shepard. Otherwise Shepard being all friendly with Garrus, Tali, Liara after being a complete ****** to them in ME1 is annoying and out of character.

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Then people would complain how Shepard is emotionally distant from everyone instead.

Sure, some restraints on the level of relations with certain characters would be good, but I can't see why it's so bad if Shepard is simply just being nice by giving people small compliments here and there.

I don't think BioWare can write every single scenario there might be, because that would take a lot of time. Not to mention that some people are unpredictable in their opinions.

Not everyone wants to be all buddy, buddy with everyone and sit around the campfire singing kumbaya. 

I don't really like Liara, so therefor I don't want my Shep being all huggy with her. 

And no... they wouldn't complain about being distant from everyone as it would be their choice to be that way or not.

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

Xilizhra wrote...

I would say that forced friendships are better than forced nonfriendships. Neither is ideal, but there's only so much disk space.

Yet, they can do it in Dragon Age? 

You can be friends or not... and they'll even leave if they don't like you enough. 

If I am rude to Liara all the time, she shouldn't like me that much. If I'm not all buddy buddy with Garrus, then he should show that. Maybe be extremely short or annoyed sounding when talking to Shepard. 

[Xilizhra]

I suppose this is something I've never noticed, because... I don't know, it's always seemed natural for me to be friends with everyone.

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

Xilizhra wrote...

I suppose this is something I've never noticed, because... I don't know, it's always seemed natural for me to be friends with everyone.

Being friends with everyone is all fine and dandy, but in a game like this you want to have a choice over what your Shepard is like. Why do you think people want Shepard to have the ability to be gay? 

Anyway, back to the topic, it's for replay value and consistency. Why the hell would I wanna play the game the exact same way every time? I could have one Shepard be best friends with Garrus and another that hates all turians and royally pisses off Garrus (and knowing his attitude... maybe he should even leave and you meet him later and see him trying to do his own thing against the Reapers? Not that I would ever do that as Garrus is my second fav character... but that's not the point).

and why would Tali hate me, then love me all of a sudden? It makes no sense. Don't say that the game is all about choice, then gives choices... but turn around and take them away. 

[Xilizhra]

[quote]Anyway, back to the topic, it's for replay value and consistency. Why the hell would I wanna play the game the exact same way every time?/quote]
That's actually what I do. I have a way that I feel is best and continue to do it because I can't get involved in another Shepard.

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

Xilizhra wrote...

Anyway, back to the topic, it's for replay value and consistency. Why the hell would I wanna play the game the exact same way every time?

That's actually what I do. I have a way that I feel is best and continue to do it because I can't get involved in another Shepard.

*facepalm* That wasn't even the main point of the post.

Point is, don't give us choice.... then say... NO YOU'RE DOIN IT WRONG.

[Destroy Raiden_]

Its BWs game they decide who is friends with shep and who isn't you don't really have control over your shep you know 90% of the game you determine if shep punches or puts up with someone that's it .The fact that they give you a selection of characters to romance is still BWs call to make they say you can only romance 4 people out of 50 and they determine which version of shep they like so if you want a romance you have to pick one of the 4 that is available for your shep you can't have 5 -50 you don't control that either. If you need to control all that go to school and learn to make your own video game. BW owns the game, writes the scripts, and determines what happens in those script with slight variations and the player just plays it.

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 09 octobre 2011 - 06:01 .

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

Its BWs game they decide who is friends with shep and who isn't you don't really have control over your shep you know 90% of the game you determine if shep punches or puts up with someone that's it .The fact that they give you a selection of characters to romance is still BWs call to make they say you can only romance 4 people out of 50 and they determine which version of shep they like so if you want a romance you have to pick one of the 4 that is available for your shep you can't have 5 -50 you don't control that either. If you need to control all that go to school and learn to make your own video game. BW owns the game, writes the scripts, and determines what happens in those script with slight variations and the player just plays it.

Yeah, yeah... just roll over and go with it. That's how games die quickly. If no one ever suggested a better way to do things... we'd all still be playing games with graphics, length, and plot of dig dug. 

Don't bill the game as one of choice if you are going to tell me how to play it, thus giving me no choice.

[Wuartz]

My female renegade Shepard had a love/hate relationship with Ashley I would like to continue in Mass Effect 3. In conversations, she always said the worst things to Ashley, for example when she told her straight up to her face that she don't want her aboard the ship. And when Ashley told Shep her story about her dad and sisters, Shepard always mocked her.
But I still chose Ashley over Kaidan, because I loved the conversations between the two. They disliked eachother, but they didn't hate.

In ME2, this worked well. Ashley doubting Shepard, and refused to join the suicide team. And Shepard didn't care,

It would be nice if there still could be some spark between the two in ME3, and not forcing the two of them to be BFFs.

[mineralica]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

Its BWs game they decide who is friends with shep and who isn't you don't really have control over your shep you know 90% of the game you determine if shep punches or puts up with someone that's it .The fact that they give you a selection of characters to romance is still BWs call to make they say you can only romance 4 people out of 50 and they determine which version of shep they like so if you want a romance you have to pick one of the 4 that is available for your shep you can't have 5 -50 you don't control that either. If you need to control all that go to school and learn to make your own video game. BW owns the game, writes the scripts, and determines what happens in those script with slight variations and the player just plays it.

The difference is... romance is optional. Since ME isn't romance simulator, romances don't relate to plot and not critical to successfully finishing game.

But dialogues in story-based game are critical. Without talking to someone you can't finish the game (for example, rescuing Garrus and then worrying about him is critical to unlock Horizon and proceed further) ... and how do you talk to someone is main reason to play game. Remove control over such choices, and what will be left from a game? Shooting? Mwahaha.

[who would know]

I wish I could roleplay a cold, competent, and deadly Shepard. Motoko Kusanagi-style. (S)he is part machine, after all. I'm introverted IRL, and after what's happened to Shepard (nothing short of returning from the grave), I know I'd build my walls even higher. I'd probably feel like I'm living in a dream world, like I'm a puppet. I'm guessing it won't be possible, though.

[Ryzaki]

Nope sadly.

The closest you can get is not talking to anyone but then when you do have to talk to someone Shep will start acting like they're BFFs. (You could kind of do it in ME1 as a renegade though. ME2 sent that flying out the window.)

And yes I hate canon friends. It's not interesting. If BW wants to put in canon friends they might as well choose Shep's dialogue to begin with instead of retconning how my Shep treated certain characters in ME1.

[who would know]

I don't like the "don't talk to anybody and don't do their loyalty missions" argument. It's not always about wanting to be buddies. Sometimes it's just about wanting to see your crew at its best, about being a professional. I don't want to miss out on the content just because my roleplaying options don't allow anything but unbridled friendliness and ignore the relationship choices I made in the past.

[Homey C-Dawg]

I have to admit one of my biggest concerns with ME3 is the fear that they may have killed off neutral Shepard, since I don't remember seeing much in the way of neutral responses in the released (or leaked) promos/demo.

Hopefully I can still play without having to choose between being an idealistic paragon or an arrogant renegade, as neither fits my canon femshep's personality.

We should really just accept the truth though tha the script is written around paragon, so all squaddies in ME3 will probably assume BFF with Shepard (even though logically Miranda should hate my Sheps guts).

Modifié par Homey C-Dawg, 09 janvier 2012 - 01:03 .

[crimzontearz]

IsaacShep wrote...
Think that's bad? Try Liara's canon romance with that constant hugging with Shepard and not-subtle-at-all "Psssst! Pick Liara!" from BioWare during Genesis. Why is my Shep hugging her and not Ash & Kaidan? And Tali's loyalty mission was also railroaded as hell, every option for Shep is written in BFFs perspective, even the one in which you expose her father the writers make sure you know it's about Shep "caring for Tali" and she can't stop talking how she knows "you tried to help".

right....because being pushed oh so subtely in the arms of a new LI in the vanilla ME2 was awesome right?