250 réponses à ce sujet

[Kusy]

It's a video game not a tabletop RPG, you can't make certain decisions available, it's more about giving the player an illusion of having a choice than giving him a choice.

Apparently Commander Shepard is not a douchebag to everyone in the galaxy and that's from where you can role-play him as such.

Modifié par Mr.Kusy, 05 octobre 2011 - 02:45 .

[Izhalezan]

Shepards a warrior and a professional, I have a hard time imagining that after the long road to Saren that Shepard could still be a jerk to any of them.

[Collider]

who would know wrote...

Um, it's as simple as making hugs paragon interrupts.

Exactly.
People act as if this is a monumental task, but it's already been done in ME1. Shepard had a choice for most/all companions in regards to whether their relationship was friendly, professional, or unfriendly.  And that added to the replay value.

Modifié par Collider, 05 octobre 2011 - 02:47 .

[Kusy]

It's a video game not a tabletop RPG, you can't make certain decisions available, it's more about giving the player an illusion of having a choice than giving him a choice.

Apparently Commander Shepard is not a douchebag to everyone in the galaxy and that's from where you can role-play him as such. Just like you can't roleplay him as an Asian cross-dresser from Nebraska - you can't role-play him as a sociopath.

[IndigoWolfe]

Collider wrote...

IndigoWolfe wrote...

The problem with this is the issues that if Shepard had absolutely no canon friends, Shepard's ability to emote on a level greater than a by-situation basis would be heavily impeded.

Take those examples you referenced, I think those instances give Shepard a lot more personality and humanity than most interactions in ME2.

I would cite ME1 as a good example what I'm talking about in regards to no canon friends.
Unless you don't like how ME1 did the relationships with squad mates.

The difference being the cast of people with whom Shepard could interact was far smaller. And even in ME1, you had a canon friend; Anderson. Granted, he's not a squad mate, but he still qualifies as a canon friend.

[shepskisaac]

Mr.Kusy wrote...

It's a video game not a tabletop RPG, you can't make certain decisions available, it's more about giving the player an illusion of having a choice than giving him a choice.

Alpha Protocol says hi.

[JamieCOTC]

Like they railroaded Shep into working w/ Cerberus? The biggest railroad of the game. Anyway ...

I'm all for being a ****** in the game. Play anyway you want, but I guess what bugged me was the disservice it did w/ the characters, especially Tali and Liara. Seriously, why in the hell would Liara even bother to dig up Shepard's corpse if Shep had berated her? (insert obligatory "because she's a crazy stalker" comment here). There is a bug in ME1 that makes Liara appear in the locker scene no matter how she was treated by Shepard. I've never had this bug, but I know quite a few people have experienced it both on PC and XBox. And Tali, Shep can treat her like utter crap and yet she fawns all over Shep like they were lovers. At least Liara appears distant, though for her own reasons that are not linked to Shepard. And don't even get me started w/ femShep and Jacob.

That all said, I think they have learned their lesson to a degree. I can't find the source, so grain of salt, but I recall one of the devs stating that Tali will react to Shepard depending how she was treated in ME2.

[Leonia]

Mr.Kusy wrote...

Yes BioWare, stop writing story and dialogue at all because someone might dislike it.

Pretty much sums up the majority of complaints on the BSN.

They are never going to please everybody, calling the games RPGs is a bit misleading, there's only so many options that the devs can provide. Simple solution? If you don't want to be buddies with a squad-mate, don't talk to them that often.

Or try to, you know, role-play the dialogue and interpret it differently, if that's how you play these sorts of games. Many conversations are open to a variety of interpretations based on your Shepard's angle and personality. Don't complain about a lack of RP options if you aren't even trying to RP.

[LOLandStuff]

Kill them for acting all BFF on you. That's why Bioware gave us the SM, to get rid of unwanted forced friendship.

[Cutlass Jack]

Collider wrote...

So, let Shepard have a choice whether s/he wants to be friends or professional with the squad mates. If nothing else, it adds to the replay value. Like ME1.

ME1? Oh you mean like when Liara continually 'Embraces Eternity' with you in front of the squad every chance she got?

[Collider]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Collider wrote...

So, let Shepard have a choice whether s/he wants to be friends or professional with the squad mates. If nothing else, it adds to the replay value. Like ME1.

ME1? Oh you mean like when Liara continually 'Embraces Eternity' with you in front of the squad every chance she got?

The one Shepard can outright dislike and only do out of necessity, yes.

[LOLandStuff]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Collider wrote...

So, let Shepard have a choice whether s/he wants to be friends or professional with the squad mates. If nothing else, it adds to the replay value. Like ME1.

ME1? Oh you mean like when Liara continually 'Embraces Eternity' with you in front of the squad every chance she got?

Someone must be missing the public brain sex.

[sevach]

The entire part that Tali played in ME2 felt weird to people who were mean to her in ME1.

Telling, your help isn't needed, you were forced down my throat...
The Geth were right in destroying the quarians.
No you can't have the Geth data.

And now she loves me??? There is some weird masochistic side to this girl...

[mineralica]

who would know wrote...

Um, it's as simple as making hugs paragon interrupts.

Or making renegade interrupts when someone's trying to hug Shepard. With "What are you doing, get off me!". At least for all random asari touching Shepard right before LI's eyes.

[Leonia]

sevach wrote...

The entire part that Tali played in ME2 felt weird to people who were mean to her in ME1.

Telling, your help isn't needed, you were forced down my throat...
The Geth were right in destroying the quarians.
No you can't have the Geth data.

And now she loves me??? There is some weird masochistic side to this girl...

Granted, you can royally ****** her off by turning over the evidence during the trial which is actually the best thing you can do if you support peace between the quarians and geth, given the admirals reactions afterwards.

[Labrev]

sevach wrote...

The entire part that Tali played in ME2 felt weird to people who were mean to her in ME1.

Telling, your help isn't needed, you were forced down my throat...
The Geth were right in destroying the quarians.
No you can't have the Geth data.

And now she loves me??? There is some weird masochistic side to this girl...

Women love jerks and often times even love getting treated like crap, no matter how much they deny it.


Shepard is a man of great strength, of course Tali developed a crush on him.

[littlezack]

leonia42 wrote...

sevach wrote...

The entire part that Tali played in ME2 felt weird to people who were mean to her in ME1.

Telling, your help isn't needed, you were forced down my throat...
The Geth were right in destroying the quarians.
No you can't have the Geth data.

And now she loves me??? There is some weird masochistic side to this girl...

Granted, you can royally ****** her off by turning over the evidence during the trial which is actually the best thing you can do if you support peace between the quarians and geth, given the admirals reactions afterwards.

Not to mention you can take Legion's side in their argument.

[Labrev]

 I agree that they walk a fine line, I don't have too much issue with the approach they took in 2 though. ME is not a sitcom kind of thing, it's closer to a drama. The emotional responses they've chosen are pretty realistic and flexible, as it should be. There's a time and place where you can be obnoxious, sarcastic, and a ******.

Personally I have no problem with the thing with hugging Liara. I don't consider her a close friend or anything but that's just the normal way to greet a person not seen in years, one who you've been through a lot with. And then inviting her up to the cabin, just a nice thing to do, not by any means required either (you can tell her "no" or "maybe another time"). If you need the achievement, do it and reload saved game afterwards to not do it.

Garrus is not exactly a forced friend either from what I've seen. You can pick him up from Omega and just be like "WTF?" when you see him (not particularly rudely, but not in an overly-friendly manner either). He'll act nice to you but that's because he's got that kind of respect and considers you a friend, but you can respond to him in a pretty neutral manner.


I mean, Jacob is to my Shepard what Toby is to Michael Scott. Still, when I see inevitably see him again in 3 I'll probably act reasonable about it, maybe even act like I'm happy to see him (although it would be pretty funny to have the option to yell "NO!!! NO, PLEASE!!! NO PLEASE GOD NO, NO!!! NO!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!)

[shepskisaac]

JamieCOTC wrote...

Like they railroaded Shep into working w/ Cerberus? The biggest railroad of the game. Anyway ...

Frankly, I don't think it was the biggest railroad. You could still express your disapproval/hate/dislike towards Cerberus and their methods. You can't basically be anything but 'caring for Tali one way or another' during her loyalty mission.

leonia42 wrote...

Granted, you can royally ****** her off by turning over the evidence during the trial which is actually the best thing you can do if you support peace between the quarians and geth, given the admirals reactions afterwards.

Yet it is still railroaded into "caring for Tali" in the perspective that Shep thought she didn't deserve to be exiled because of her father's stupid mistakes. She also still justifies Shep's actions "I KNOW you were trying to help..." and I was like "No I wasn't, I just wanted to screw you over". Yes, Legion/Tali confrontation was good, you could be trully against Tali. But that doesn't show unless you're nice to her prior that lol.

Take Samara's loyalty mission. The choice to help Morinth was exactly what all loyalty missions should have, to be against your party member one way or another.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 05 octobre 2011 - 04:25 .

[Ryzaki]

Please YES BioWare no more canon friends.
That forced Liara hug makes me wanna cry. All Sheps are not the same. They don't all like the same people. I'm not asking for a "shoot everyone in the face" option but being able to be cold and professional with the squad instead of all Big Papa/Momma bear would be nice.

[Sasie]

IsaacShep wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Like they railroaded Shep into working w/ Cerberus? The biggest railroad of the game. Anyway ...

Frankly, I don't think it was the biggest railroad. You could still express your disapproval/hate/dislike towards Cerberus and their methods. You can't basically be anything but 'caring for Tali one way or another' during her loyalty mission.

Especially horrible considering her reaction when you refuse to give her the intel of the Geth at ME1. Also people speak as if it would be some huge task to change some reactions around and let us experiance the game in different ways then one. It has already been done! Alpha protocol had huge changes depending on what the player decided to do and though that was done by a different company Bioware has also done similar things like this in their own games in the past. Dragon Age 2 for example had a friendship/rivalry path, I can't imagine it would be that hard to have done something similar for Mass effect.

Though that would have forced them to shot focusing on combat for a while and promote the roleplaying... something they promised they would work on for ME3 I might add.

[CannotCompute]

Hug/show emotions interrupts would've fixed a lot.

I believe those are available in ME3. It will make the game so much better (more choice on relationship level).

[BatmanPWNS]

Liara, Tali and Garrus ones are too caring. I greatly liked them all personally but my 6th Shep is a Xenophobe and her (It's a FemShep) hugging Liara was like to me"No! WTF you doing" and playing the Shadow Broker DLC mission (I played it with the xenophobe Shep because it is canon no matter what) with her and Liara being buddies despite me insulting Liara through the whole of ME1 was annoying.

[swordmalice]

Mr.Kusy wrote...

It's a video game not a tabletop RPG, you can't make certain decisions available, it's more about giving the player an illusion of having a choice than giving him a choice.

Apparently Commander Shepard is not a douchebag to everyone in the galaxy and that's from where you can role-play him as such. Just like you can't roleplay him as an Asian cross-dresser from Nebraska - you can't role-play him as a sociopath.

This. If Commander Shepard were our own unique creation, ie that we came up with the concept of the character similar to what we do in tabletop RPGs, then we are the ones who would choose the direction in which our character matures (or doesn't). We are not the creators of Shepard; we simply mold him/her to our liking, much like a sculptor forms a statue from base materials that existed beforehand. Ergo, we are vulnerable to only having the illusion of choice in some areas since we are all sculptors, not creators. Personally I'm fine with that; the actual choices we do get to make are good enough for me. If I wanted to play a tabletop RPG, I'd play it. This is a video game constrained by the whims of its creators so I think once players understand that they can have a much less "annoying" experience.

Modifié par swordmalice, 05 octobre 2011 - 04:40 .

[JamieCOTC]

IsaacShep wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Like they railroaded Shep into working w/ Cerberus? The biggest railroad of the game. Anyway ...

Frankly, I don't think it was the biggest railroad. You could still express your disapproval/hate/dislike towards Cerberus and their methods. You can't basically be anything but 'caring for Tali one way or another' during her loyalty mission.

leonia42 wrote...

Granted, you can royally ****** her off by turning over the evidence during the trial which is actually the best thing you can do if you support peace between the quarians and geth, given the admirals reactions afterwards.

Yet it is still railroaded into "caring for Tali" in the perspective that Shep thought she didn't deserve to be exiled because of her father's stupid mistakes. She also still justifies Shep's actions "I KNOW you were trying to help..." and I was like "No I wasn't, I just wanted to screw you over". Yes, Legion/Tali confrontation was good, you could be trully against Tali. But that doesn't show unless you're nice to her prior that lol.

Take Samara's loyalty mission. The choice to help Morinth was exactly what all loyalty missions should have, to be against your party member one way or another.

I think you should be able to screw over your squadmates, but the squademates should in turn be able to screw over Shepard too.  I recall my grandfather talking about fighting in the Pacific in WW2 and how more than one dickish officer would end up w/ a shot to the back during a firefight.