Afaik, Garrus has the "just like old times dialogue" even if you didn't recruit him in ME1, which just makes it strange. As a comparison, DAO had different dialogues depending on your approval rate with these characters. Additionally, if your character and Wynne hated each other in DAO, she will treat you accordingly in Awakening.
No more canon friends
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Collider
, oct. 05 2011 01:45
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#52
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 05:11
Ryzaki
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JamieCOTC wrote...
IsaacShep wrote...
Frankly, I don't think it was the biggest railroad. You could still express your disapproval/hate/dislike towards Cerberus and their methods. You can't basically be anything but 'caring for Tali one way or another' during her loyalty mission.JamieCOTC wrote...
Like they railroaded Shep into working w/ Cerberus? The biggest railroad of the game. Anyway ...Yet it is still railroaded into "caring for Tali" in the perspective that Shep thought she didn't deserve to be exiled because of her father's stupid mistakes. She also still justifies Shep's actions "I KNOW you were trying to help..." and I was like "No I wasn't, I just wanted to screw you over". Yes, Legion/Tali confrontation was good, you could be trully against Tali. But that doesn't show unless you're nice to her prior that lol.leonia42 wrote...
Granted, you can royally ****** her off by turning over the evidence during the trial which is actually the best thing you can do if you support peace between the quarians and geth, given the admirals reactions afterwards.
Take Samara's loyalty mission. The choice to help Morinth was exactly what all loyalty missions should have, to be against your party member one way or another.
I think you should be able to screw over your squadmates, but the squademates should in turn be able to screw over Shepard too. I recall my grandfather talking about fighting in the Pacific in WW2 and how more than one dickish officer would end up w/ a shot to the back during a firefight.
...If that's gonna occur Shepard better have a GTFOMS option.
I'm not dealing with getting shot in the back because my Shepard was too stupid to get rid of a liability.
That would be interesting though. I would hope it would only happen for characters it makes sense for (Jack, Grunt).
Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 octobre 2011 - 05:25 .
#53
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 05:14
JamieCOTC
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Aeowyn wrote...
Afaik, Garrus has the "just like old times dialogue" even if you didn't recruit him in ME1, which just makes it strange. As a comparison, DAO had different dialogues depending on your approval rate with these characters. Additionally, if your character and Wynne hated each other in DAO, she will treat you accordingly in Awakening.
This is why I consider ME2 as much of a reboot as a sequel. So many things change and not just the gameplay or style, but like you all say, the personailities of the squadmates. DA2, the same.
#54
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 05:29
Someone With Mass
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JamieCOTC wrote...
Aeowyn wrote...
Afaik, Garrus has the "just like old times dialogue" even if you didn't recruit him in ME1, which just makes it strange. As a comparison, DAO had different dialogues depending on your approval rate with these characters. Additionally, if your character and Wynne hated each other in DAO, she will treat you accordingly in Awakening.
This is why I consider ME2 as much of a reboot as a sequel. So many things change and not just the gameplay or style, but like you all say, the personailities of the squadmates. DA2, the same.
Well, it was made as a point where newcomers can jump in into the series, so that reboot is a given.
#55
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 05:50
wizardryforever
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The whole concept of loyalty missions is to "get your squadmate's head on straight," or more specifically, to help them. If you dislike them or otherwise don't care for them, why are you doing their loyalty mission? Metagaming?IsaacShep wrote...
Frankly, I don't think it was the biggest railroad. You could still express your disapproval/hate/dislike towards Cerberus and their methods. You can't basically be anything but 'caring for Tali one way or another' during her loyalty mission.JamieCOTC wrote...
Like they railroaded Shep into working w/ Cerberus? The biggest railroad of the game. Anyway ...Yet it is still railroaded into "caring for Tali" in the perspective that Shep thought she didn't deserve to be exiled because of her father's stupid mistakes. She also still justifies Shep's actions "I KNOW you were trying to help..." and I was like "No I wasn't, I just wanted to screw you over". Yes, Legion/Tali confrontation was good, you could be trully against Tali. But that doesn't show unless you're nice to her prior that lol.leonia42 wrote...
Granted, you can royally ****** her off by turning over the evidence during the trial which is actually the best thing you can do if you support peace between the quarians and geth, given the admirals reactions afterwards.
Take Samara's loyalty mission. The choice to help Morinth was exactly what all loyalty missions should have, to be against your party member one way or another.
Now, events can happen in which you may see losing said squadmate's loyalty to be an acceptable tradeoff. Like Zaeed's loyalty, Tali's loyalty, or in the case of Samara, trading her for her serial killer daughter. But you don't do someone's loyalty mission if Shepard doesn't care about them.
As far as more standard dialog and greetings and such, meh. It wasn't as big of a problem as the OP makes it seem.
#56
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 05:52
JamieCOTC
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Someone With Mass wrote...
JamieCOTC wrote...
Aeowyn wrote...
Afaik, Garrus has the "just like old times dialogue" even if you didn't recruit him in ME1, which just makes it strange. As a comparison, DAO had different dialogues depending on your approval rate with these characters. Additionally, if your character and Wynne hated each other in DAO, she will treat you accordingly in Awakening.
This is why I consider ME2 as much of a reboot as a sequel. So many things change and not just the gameplay or style, but like you all say, the personailities of the squadmates. DA2, the same.
Well, it was made as a point where newcomers can jump in into the series, so that reboot is a given.
As will ME3. Maybe Garrus, Liara, Tali et, etc will all hate Shepard no matter what.
#57
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Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 05:53
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You have a point, OP. It cheapens the relationship if you don't do anything for it.
I wish there'd be at least one flag indicating that you managed to go through all the conversations and quests with your companion without botching it once (or with repairing it afterwards), and achieved true intimacy and understanding. Then I'd value the relationship more, because I was the one who chose that route.
Relationships are one of the major attractions of the game, since they create emotional engagement. If I want linearity, I read a novel or watch a movie. A little interactivity in a game can't hurt.
I can handle it when a character likes my Shepard no matter how badly Shepard treats the character, because such things do happen in life, especially if the char is a charismatic leader, saves your life all the time, is a hero, is good looking, et cetera.
It's much worse when my Shepard suddenly decides that he likes a certain character no matter how I feel about it. Tali's loyalty mission's a good example. Shepard's feeling all warm and fuzzy about having her back on board, and I'm feeling like a third wheel in their true soul connection. Really, they don't need my assistance here - or interference.
(Actually, the specifics of Tali's relationship as LI are such that it happens between Shepard and Tali, not between the player-as-Shepard and Tali. You aren't even allowed to watch that grand revelation. It's like drawing a curtain between the camera and Shepard.)
A little more control here, please. It creates more involvement. And then we care about the game more.
I wish there'd be at least one flag indicating that you managed to go through all the conversations and quests with your companion without botching it once (or with repairing it afterwards), and achieved true intimacy and understanding. Then I'd value the relationship more, because I was the one who chose that route.
Relationships are one of the major attractions of the game, since they create emotional engagement. If I want linearity, I read a novel or watch a movie. A little interactivity in a game can't hurt.
I can handle it when a character likes my Shepard no matter how badly Shepard treats the character, because such things do happen in life, especially if the char is a charismatic leader, saves your life all the time, is a hero, is good looking, et cetera.
It's much worse when my Shepard suddenly decides that he likes a certain character no matter how I feel about it. Tali's loyalty mission's a good example. Shepard's feeling all warm and fuzzy about having her back on board, and I'm feeling like a third wheel in their true soul connection. Really, they don't need my assistance here - or interference.
(Actually, the specifics of Tali's relationship as LI are such that it happens between Shepard and Tali, not between the player-as-Shepard and Tali. You aren't even allowed to watch that grand revelation. It's like drawing a curtain between the camera and Shepard.)
A little more control here, please. It creates more involvement. And then we care about the game more.
Modifié par laecraft, 05 octobre 2011 - 05:55 .
#58
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 05:58
JerkyJohnny14
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JamieCOTC wrote...
Aeowyn wrote...
Afaik, Garrus has the "just like old times dialogue" even if you didn't recruit him in ME1, which just makes it strange. As a comparison, DAO had different dialogues depending on your approval rate with these characters. Additionally, if your character and Wynne hated each other in DAO, she will treat you accordingly in Awakening.
This is why I consider ME2 as much of a reboot as a sequel. So many things change and not just the gameplay or style, but like you all say, the personailities of the squadmates. DA2, the same.
Well, Bioware made a profit. So that's all that really matters, right?
#59
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Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 06:01
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JamieCOTC wrote...
As will ME3. Maybe Garrus, Liara, Tali et, etc will all hate Shepard no matter what.
That already happened. Everyone's either indifferent, or suspicious, or plain distrustful of Shepard when Shepard meets them after coming back to life. The contrast's especially sharp after he speaks of his former team with such faith and affection. Wrex's the only one who's happy to see you alive. If the same thing happens in ME3 - well, I'm expecting it, but it'll get old fast.
#60
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 06:01
JamieCOTC
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wizardryforever wrote...
The whole concept of loyalty missions is to "get your squadmate's head on straight," or more specifically, to help them. If you dislike them or otherwise don't care for them, why are you doing their loyalty mission? Metagaming?IsaacShep wrote...
Frankly, I don't think it was the biggest railroad. You could still express your disapproval/hate/dislike towards Cerberus and their methods. You can't basically be anything but 'caring for Tali one way or another' during her loyalty mission.JamieCOTC wrote...
Like they railroaded Shep into working w/ Cerberus? The biggest railroad of the game. Anyway ...Yet it is still railroaded into "caring for Tali" in the perspective that Shep thought she didn't deserve to be exiled because of her father's stupid mistakes. She also still justifies Shep's actions "I KNOW you were trying to help..." and I was like "No I wasn't, I just wanted to screw you over". Yes, Legion/Tali confrontation was good, you could be trully against Tali. But that doesn't show unless you're nice to her prior that lol.leonia42 wrote...
Granted, you can royally ****** her off by turning over the evidence during the trial which is actually the best thing you can do if you support peace between the quarians and geth, given the admirals reactions afterwards.
Take Samara's loyalty mission. The choice to help Morinth was exactly what all loyalty missions should have, to be against your party member one way or another.
Now, events can happen in which you may see losing said squadmate's loyalty to be an acceptable tradeoff. Like Zaeed's loyalty, Tali's loyalty, or in the case of Samara, trading her for her serial killer daughter. But you don't do someone's loyalty mission if Shepard doesn't care about them.
As far as more standard dialog and greetings and such, meh. It wasn't as big of a problem as the OP makes it seem.
Pretty much this. Though I would have liked to have seen a "deal w/ it" button. Shepard tells the squad to deal and they make it out of the SM alive. Then of course, the game is only 12 hours long.
![=]](https://lvlt.forum.bioware.com/public/style_emoticons/default/sideways.png)
Of course my fav railroad is ...
"This is the last shuttle on the station. You want to stay here and rot w/ the Mechs, be my guest."
"No. I'll think just kill you both and take any one of the three reamaining shuttles."
#61
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 06:03
Xilizhra
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Note that you didn't actually get to see Garrus' surprise, since he first saw Shepard through a rifle scope, and there really wasn't much time for reunions then in any case. And Liara was... under stress. She wasn't indifferent or suspicious or distrustful of me; evasive, maybe, but I got past that. And it was worth it.laecraft wrote...
JamieCOTC wrote...
As will ME3. Maybe Garrus, Liara, Tali et, etc will all hate Shepard no matter what.
That already happened. Everyone's either indifferent, or suspicious, or plain distrustful of Shepard when Shepard meets them after coming back to life. The contrast's especially sharp after he speaks of his former team with such faith and affection. Wrex's the only one who's happy to see you alive. If the same thing happens in ME3 - well, I'm expecting it, but it'll get old fast.
#62
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 06:14
JamieCOTC
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laecraft wrote...
JamieCOTC wrote...
As will ME3. Maybe Garrus, Liara, Tali et, etc will all hate Shepard no matter what.
That already happened. Everyone's either indifferent, or suspicious, or plain distrustful of Shepard when Shepard meets them after coming back to life. The contrast's especially sharp after he speaks of his former team with such faith and affection. Wrex's the only one who's happy to see you alive. If the same thing happens in ME3 - well, I'm expecting it, but it'll get old fast.
Some of the squadmates are certainly indifferent to Shepard which is all kinds of wrong and even contradicts what the OP is talking about. And yes, VS is very distrustful, but I’m talking about wanting to totally screw Shepard over in the same fashion a lot of players want to screw over the characters. On a metagaming level, I get it. You don’t like character X and you want to mess w/ them. I get that. In the context of the story, do you really want to screw over someone who is supposed to be watching your back in a firefight? That said, they should have had a “let’s keep things professional” option.
#63
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 06:25
AdmiralCheez
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Yeah. I got annoyed with Liara a little (read as: SHUT UP LIARA YOU'RE STUPID), but the average player was probably happy to see those old friends again, and damn it, those broments were the best parts of the game.Xilizhra wrote...
I would say that forced friendships are better than forced nonfriendships. Neither is ideal, but there's only so much disk space.
Seriously, I think if we tallied up who loved the OMG BROMANCE moments versus those that thought they were stupid and forced, I think the bromance-lovers would win.
Should Bioware give me more options to be a douchebag? Yes. Should they make sure characters don't get amnesia about how I was an ass to them? Yes. Is it a high priority and will I throw a sh*t fit if they don't? Nope.
#64
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 06:45
capn233
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Based on the number of calibrations, Garrus is certainly a cannon friend.
Wait, you said canon.
Wait, you said canon.
#65
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 06:50
lovgreno
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Some things must stay the same in all Shepards stories for practical story and programming reasons. Was for example forced friendship with Liara a necesary thing to make a good game for as many players as possible? Hard for me to say, but it's irrelevant in the long run. The writers decided to do things this way and we don't have to buy it if we don't like it.
#66
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Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 06:54
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IsaacShep wrote...
Alpha Protocol says hi.Mr.Kusy wrote...
It's a video game not a tabletop RPG, you can't make certain decisions available, it's more about giving the player an illusion of having a choice than giving him a choice.
I realize this is old, but...
AP is one game. ME is three. ME has to be a WHOLE lot more constricting.
And, in ME they focused on other things as much as the consequences, for better or for worse. In AP, they didn't, and it's clear.
#67
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 06:55
KenKenpachi
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Get used to some sort of "canon" as well sorry to say guys, Marketing is worth more than you are.
#68
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 07:10
mineralica
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About Garrus: in my head canon for Shepard who not recruited him "just like old times" refers to time Garrus worked for C-Sec and whatever he did on Omega.Aeowyn wrote...
Afaik, Garrus has the "just like old times dialogue" even if you didn't recruit him in ME1, which just makes it strange. As a comparison, DAO had different dialogues depending on your approval rate with these characters. Additionally, if your character and Wynne hated each other in DAO, she will treat you accordingly in Awakening.
#69
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 07:15
Kaiser Shepard
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I pretty much agree with everything IsaacShep has said so far.
#70
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 07:18
Sgt Stryker
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Speaking of which, what happens to Wrex in ME2 if you never recruit him in ME1?
#71
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 07:20
nelly21
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I think the reason they do it is pretty simple.
You didn't friend Garrus in ME 1
Shep: Hey Garrus, I want to recruit you for a suicide mission.
Garrus: F*ck you.
You didn't friend Garrus in ME 1
Shep: Hey Garrus, I want to recruit you for a suicide mission.
Garrus: F*ck you.
#72
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 07:23
Someone With Mass
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Sgt Stryker wrote...
Speaking of which, what happens to Wrex in ME2 if you never recruit him in ME1?
Can you avoid recruiting him in the first place?
#73
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Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 07:34
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Well, that's the problem with not having an approval system like in DA or Alpha Protocol. Your squadmates will feel the same about you no matter what you say to them. I personally am always nice to my team, so I don't really care, but for those who play as douchebag xenophobe Shep, I can see why they would be annoyed when Garrus treats them like his bro.
#74
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Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 07:34
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Because Liara is cuddly and cute, whereas Ash and Kaidan are not.IsaacShep wrote...
Why is my Shep hugging Liara and not Ash & Kaidan?
#75
Posté 05 octobre 2011 - 07:35
Ryzaki
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Someone With Mass wrote...
Sgt Stryker wrote...
Speaking of which, what happens to Wrex in ME2 if you never recruit him in ME1?
Can you avoid recruiting him in the first place?
Yes. You only have to recruit either him or Garrus. You can recruit both but it's not forced.
He's probably dead in ME2 if you don't recruit him.
