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[Sharn01]

The only moment that really bugged me a lot was FemShep being forced to flirt with Jacob, to the point where I only talked to him when it was mandatory, all the other problems where minor.

[Destroy Raiden_]

Someone With Mass wrote...

What would being mean to some people achieve, anyway?

Does it really hurt that much to just be a nice guy?

That. I like the fact in 2 they tried to give a friend path or LI path depending on the sex of your shep but I think the game should take into account if your shep constantly goes ren with characters so in 3 they won't be buddy buddy with you and if you can't opt out of recruiting them they'll at least walk on egg shells with the shep who hated them in 2.

EDIT: Hell yes fshep and Jacob was horrible! I mean I want to say hi and she blurts out how badly she wants him in her bed! That was the worse thing ever! It really ruined the ability to get to even know him I couldn't take it after talk 3 no wonder the guy was like can you just leave me alone? I really hope m or f shep don't repeat this to anyone in 3. I didn't talk to Jacob at all the only time I did was to get his ship upgrade and that was a chore I had to work up to.

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 06 octobre 2011 - 03:21 .

[magelet]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

magelet wrote...
Oh right...
I always thought of that as just a way to keep Ash/Kaidan out of ME2 to be honest. Or maybe they actually thought that everyone romanced Liara...?

In that case, they should have given them legitimate reasons to not work with Shepard, rather than the derpy "Cerberus is playing Shepard/collaborating with the Collectors!" nonsense we ended up with.

Why not have them undertaking their own mission of high importance, maybe something that ties in with their eventual induction into the Spectres?

That's a good point. I don't want to have this turn into a "Why Horizon was awful" thread because it's been discussed to death, but I do think it was an oversight in the writing.
Ashley and Kaidan not being the "canon buddies" seems like it could be because they assume that people want the unusual alien squadmates. I personally am hoping that ME3 will give some good reason for them not being in ME2...like somehow their story wouldn't have worked as well if they had joined Shepard and Cerberus then.
But maybe I'm just being optimistic.

[Iakus]

magelet wrote...

That's a good point. I don't want to have this turn into a "Why Horizon was awful" thread because it's been discussed to death, but I do think it was an oversight in the writing.
Ashley and Kaidan not being the "canon buddies" seems like it could be because they assume that people want the unusual alien squadmates. I personally am hoping that ME3 will give some good reason for them not being in ME2...like somehow their story wouldn't have worked as well if they had joined Shepard and Cerberus then.
But maybe I'm just being optimistic.

It's not so much a matter of them joining or not so much as Garrus and Tali are your buddies no matter how well or poorly you treat them.  And Ash/Kaidan will think you're a horrible human being no matter how you treated them either.  It's two sides to the "canon coin"

[Taritu]

Y'know, I've been hugged in real life by a number of people I wish hadn't. Hugging is absolutely routine in some cultures, and just indicates you know them (like cheek kissing in some places). For someone raised high cold protestant like me, this is uncomfortable, but it doesn't mean squat.

[Taritu]

Sharn01 wrote...

The only moment that really bugged me a lot was FemShep being forced to flirt with Jacob, to the point where I only talked to him when it was mandatory, all the other problems where minor.

This.  Terrible.  I talk to him for the cannon upgrade and to get his loyalty mission, and that it's it, when I'm playing Femshep.  Who the hell directed Hale to act like that.  Gawd.

[wizardryforever]

Taritu wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

The only moment that really bugged me a lot was FemShep being forced to flirt with Jacob, to the point where I only talked to him when it was mandatory, all the other problems where minor.

This.  Terrible.  I talk to him for the cannon upgrade and to get his loyalty mission, and that it's it, when I'm playing Femshep.  Who the hell directed Hale to act like that.  Gawd.

To be honest, the animations and such for MaleShep are pretty much the same when talking to Jacob.  So while his tone is businesslike, he has the same come-hither stance and suggestive smile as FemShep does.  The only difference here is that the lines are read differently (and there are of course, extra lines for romance with FemShep).  Definitely something that needed improvement.

[Quething]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

There actually is a dialogue option to get mad at her after doing her Illium missions.

Not much of one. She rants off about how right she was in response, and Shep apparently agrees, because the dialog goes right back into the normal "polite former friend" dialog wheel and Shep's goodbye is the standard, caring "I'll talk to you later" afterward.

Main!Shep was incredibly fond of and protective of Liara in ME1, thought of her something like "that adorable neighbor girl who just needs someone to be nice to her and isn't her crush on me kind of cute and awkward," and was overjoyed to find her on Illium, right up until they actually spoke and she discovered that whole character derailment "development" thing.

But she would damn well not be pleasantly and hopefully saying "I'll talk to you later" after finding out Liara sold her to Cerberus.

Spent most of LotSB looking for the option to properly be like "WTF you murder people now? That is not cool Liara," too. Didn't see it. Apparently Shepard is less my character than advertised, since it's canon that she trusts that this clearly psychologically wounded glaringly-red-flag behavior friend of hers is totally fine and on the level and completely capable of handling the power she just annexed.

[GodWood]

Lol @ all the fanboys saying "Deal with it" or whatever.

God forbid my Shepard has varying opinions on each individual companion (Garrus = Bro, Miranda = b*tchy colleague, Jack = LI etc).

[wizardryforever]

Quething wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

There actually is a dialogue option to get mad at her after doing her Illium missions.

Not much of one. She rants off about how right she was in response, and Shep apparently agrees, because the dialog goes right back into the normal "polite former friend" dialog wheel and Shep's goodbye is the standard, caring "I'll talk to you later" afterward.

Main!Shep was incredibly fond of and protective of Liara in ME1, thought of her something like "that adorable neighbor girl who just needs someone to be nice to her and isn't her crush on me kind of cute and awkward," and was overjoyed to find her on Illium, right up until they actually spoke and she discovered that whole character derailment "development" thing.

But she would damn well not be pleasantly and hopefully saying "I'll talk to you later" after finding out Liara sold her to Cerberus.

Spent most of LotSB looking for the option to properly be like "WTF you murder people now? That is not cool Liara," too. Didn't see it. Apparently Shepard is less my character than advertised, since it's canon that she trusts that this clearly psychologically wounded glaringly-red-flag behavior friend of hers is totally fine and on the level and completely capable of handling the power she just annexed.

After the Vasir fight, as you and Liara walk to the shuttle, there are three different Paragon interrupts where you accost Liara for her behavior at this point (like running after Vasir without a backward look, being cold concerning the deaths of everyone at the trade center, and giving Shepard stupid missions when he/she first got to Illium).  Those would be what you're looking for.  Perhaps you overlooked them, since they go by pretty quickly, or you were doing a "no interrupt" playthrough or something.

[SilentK]

Hmmm.... I believe that having hugs and such more "friendly"-stuff as chosen interrupts would get me replaying a few more FemSheps actually. I'm quite the softie and likes to be friends with everyone. But if there was a big difference in how a person acted towards you in ME3 depending on choices made earlier. Then I might actually make a FemShep that, I don't know, never got friendly with Tali. So yes, I would probably use all the hug-interrupts every single time because I really like to see that friendship side of things. Makes FemShep feel more human to me, but I like the idea of it being a choice.

[Quething]

wizardryforever wrote...

After the Vasir fight, as you and Liara walk to the shuttle, there are three different Paragon interrupts where you accost Liara for her behavior at this point (like running after Vasir without a backward look, being cold concerning the deaths of everyone at the trade center, and giving Shepard stupid missions when he/she first got to Illium).  Those would be what you're looking for.  Perhaps you overlooked them, since they go by pretty quickly, or you were doing a "no interrupt" playthrough or something.

No, no. They do go by pretty quick but I've played the DLC about a dozen times, and did manage to snag them all even on my first playthrough. But they're not at all what I mean. Only two of the three are in any way berating of Liara. The second one, Shep calls Liara out on being callous, and Liara's like "I had to make the hard calls!" and disavows any culpability for her actions or their consequences, and Shepard immediately comforts her and reassures her she's totally fine and blameless. The third one, Shep calls Liara out on being weird, and Liara's like, "You were dead!" and the brief ensuing dialog is entirely about their personal relationship (whether friendship or LI), nothing whatsoever to do with her new attitude or the direction her behavior has turned since Shep's death.

Irrespective of whether or not you took all or some or none of them, Shep is still at most casually cautious later when Liara takes over the Shadow Broker's job; you get two opportunities to ask Liara if this is a good idea/encourage her to think about it before taking it on, and both are quite mild, and Shep drops it both times immediately once Liara offers a one-sentence disagreement.

The whole buddy-buddy thing during the car chase is a bit weird too, since that Shep didn't really see Liara as an equal, but that one at least is minimally jarring enough to ignore; I'm willing to accept that trade-off as the price of scripted banter, which I really enjoyed (particularly on my other Sheps for whom it was more appropriate). I still think the whole thing is very wrong as a forced experience for every Shep, though. I can imagine a dozen scenarios off the top of my head where a Shepard might want to assist Liara in taking down the Shadow Broker without enjoying that kind of intimate, comfortable friendship with her, or even despite downright disliking her (though not outright hating her). So while I'm okay with all "Shep likes Liara" scenarios being sort of condensed into one set of scripted dialog that might not perfectly fit, I'm definitely not okay with every Shep being forced into that regardless.

This is where the DA2 system of Friendship/Rivalry really shines. Of course in that game, it was designed as two different kinds of friendship, where in ME I think it would be better divided as "friendly" versus "professional," where professional assumes nothing about either character's affection level either way.

Also, it would help a lot if the import flags were more vigorous. I'm not holding out any real hope that an ME3 game will know the difference between "exposed Rael'Zorah for moral reasons while continually looking out for Tali" and "exposed Rael'Zorah as part of a human-centric plan to destabilize the quarian fleet while xenophobically malicious to Tali" but man, it sure would be nice.

[HogarthHughes 3]

My "canon" Shepard being best buds with Liara in LotSB (and the ME2 cameo) is just as awkward as Femshep automatically flirting with Jacob. He (Shepard) wasn't even a dick to her in ME1, though he did disagree with her almost every time she opened her mouth. Their relationship was purely professional, end of story. Come ME2 and LotSB, she "couldn't let you go" and keeps a piece of his armor on display in her apartment. Huh? Liara seems to have conveniently forgotten how my Shepard killed the Rachni Queen right in front of her despite her protests, though she doesn't really care once back on the Normandy so I suppose that's a moot point.

It just seems wrong for Liara to be infatuated with my near-sociopath ruthless bastard renegade who disagreed with Liara on pretty much everything, and vice versa. (especially when given the option to not be friends in the previous game) But whatever, I guess enough people are happy with only two kinds of relationships between Shepard and his/her squad: Best buds or lovers :/

At least I can headcanon it away as my Shepard continuing to be ruthless; befriending people he doesn't really care about or relate to opens doors for said "friends" to be manipulated if deemed necessary.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Then people would complain how Shepard is emotionally distant from everyone instead.

Sure, some restraints on the level of relations with certain characters would be good, but I can't see why it's so bad if Shepard is simply just being nice by giving people small compliments here and there.

I don't think BioWare can write every single scenario there might be, because that would take a lot of time. Not to mention that some people are unpredictable in their opinions.

Wut?
If they have a choice of how their Shep react, how can anyone complain? Shep would only be "emotionally distant" if the player makes that choice.

[Mwames]

I agree with the OP. It would be cool if you had the option to not have as close relationships towards certain people, like in ME1 (although Garrus will always be my bro... ). Unfortunately, it's a little too late in development to add that layer of depth (if they haven't already addressed it).

[Lotion Soronarr]

Mr.Kusy wrote...

It's a video game not a tabletop RPG, you can't make certain decisions available, it's more about giving the player an illusion of having a choice than giving him a choice.

Apparently Commander Shepard is not a douchebag to everyone in the galaxy and that's from where you can role-play him as such.

Not liking someone = douchebag?

Wut?

[sorentoft]

I cannot see why you would not befriend Garrus. He's like the most badass turian in the galaxy and the best sidekick in the game.

[Collider]

In Mass Effect 1, you could roleplay a Shepard who dislikes or distrusts turians. Yet in ME2, you're buddies with Garrus, and suddenly that xenophobia is gone.
My "main" Shepard is not xenophobic, but why give options in the first game to dislike Garrus when Shepard is forced to consider him an old friend in the second?
That goes for all characters, like Tali & Liara. Kaidan & Ashley also seems to think that Shepard was the best thing since sliced bread even if you treated them like absolute garbage.

[LadyJaneGrey]

sorentoft wrote...

I cannot see why you would not befriend Garrus. He's like the most badass turian in the galaxy and the best sidekick in the game.

Possibly because he is impatient, lets his emotions dictate his actions, and resents any established authority?

*adjust devil's advocate hat*  

[BatmanPWNS]

Oh I just remembered another thing I hated about the Shadow Broker missions is that my Shep is usually silent and not the joking type and here was Shep making various lame jokes while driving. It just pissed me off that I had to mute the the damn thing. They should have just let Liara talk to herself the whole time in that car ride.

[staindgrey]

who would know wrote...

Um, it's as simple as making hugs paragon interrupts.

Even simpler than that. Just give Shepard his/her own greeting when he meets an "old friend". Then the player can decide how  to react.

For instance, when my FemShep saw Kaiden, I would've picked the hypothetical "Oh ****, it's you" option. 

[sorentoft]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

I cannot see why you would not befriend Garrus. He's like the most badass turian in the galaxy and the best sidekick in the game.

Possibly because he is impatient, lets his emotions dictate his actions, and resents any established authority?

*adjust devil's advocate hat*  

And yet he has reach. :innocent:

[ReallyRue]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

I cannot see why you would not befriend Garrus. He's like the most badass turian in the galaxy and the best sidekick in the game.

Possibly because he is impatient, lets his emotions dictate his actions, and resents any established authority?

*adjust devil's advocate hat*  

His renegade leanings might also bother a paragon Shep (especially considering he doesn't seem to have taken their ME1 advice to heart), while a renegade might be annoyed by his rather naive attitude. My Sheps were happy to befriend him, but that's another way you could look at it.

Not to mention, this relationship with Shepard in ME1 seemed much more boss-subbordinate than the other squadmates, so him being really relaxed and pally around Shepard in ME2 might come as a surprise to them.

[Cutlass Jack]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

Possibly because he is impatient, lets his emotions dictate his actions, and resents any established authority?

I must hate him for being too close to a player character.

[LadyJaneGrey]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

Possibly because he is impatient, lets his emotions dictate his actions, and resents any established authority?

I must hate him for being too close to a player character.

Probably.  :innocent: