250 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

It's both with Ashley/Kaidan.
Kaidan/Ashley "lost a limb" when Shepard dies, even if Shepard possibly treated them like trash.
But they also denounce Shepard no matter what, too.

[Bekkael]

I think the way the whole VS thing was handled in ME2 was a kick in the teeth to any friends of the VS in ME, and even moreso for those who romanced him/her. It was such an unexpected shock to the system that it caused me to set the game aside for over a year. Emotionally, it was like losing a best friend. Although I understand now why they did it (whatever plans for VS in ME3 and wanted to keep them alive etc.), it didn't make it easier to take.

I know this final chapter of the trilogy will likely be the darkest yet, but I just hope they don't pick on the VS again. I believe they have already served their angst quota for the series.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

You do know these people went to war beside each other right? No matter how Shep treats his squad they are going to respect and admire him.

He saved the freakin Galaxy. They bled together.

The writers are going to reflect that in game. Sure, a player may feel like they would rather Shep act more restrained at times... but that is just a side effect the nature of interactive narrative. It's not perfect. Shepard is NOT a perfect avatar of the player's will. S/he is a character all their own. Shepard may be guided by the player but unless the player is the sole writer for the game... Shep will never be completely their avatar.

So. In short. Squad mates give each other hugs sometimes. Get over it.

[Jenova65]

Neverwinter_Knight77 wrote...

IMO, Shepard deserved what he/she got on Horizon. Cerberus? Of all the groups to work for? Yeah, I felt like I could identify with the VS more than I could with Shepard. Especially with Shep acting like "Uh well Cerberus isn't all that bad."

QFT and because I could not agree more. My Shepard would actually say, ''Kaidan, you're damn right, let's go''

[Collider]

I don't feel like my Shepard has anything to apologize for.
He defended himself from Kaidan's attacks, that was all.

[Jenova65]

We all fall down on Horizon, and I don't think BSN is ever going to reach anything like a consensus on that one, it will also drag any discussion OT once mentioned

[RamirezWolfen]

I agree. I only want to be friends if I choose to be.

[darthnick427]

I like being friends with all my squad...I'm nice to them all..I would like Garrus to stay my best friend. He's awesome.

[tonnactus]

JamieCOTC wrote...

Like they railroaded Shep into working w/ Cerberus? The biggest railroad of the game. Anyway ...

I'm all for being a ****** in the game. Play anyway you want, but I guess what bugged me was the disservice it did w/ the characters, especially Tali and Liara. Seriously, why in the hell would Liara even bother to dig up Shepard's corpse if Shep had berated her?

Shepardt rescued her life.
She maybee thought she own him/her that.
Like it was the case with tali.

[PrinceLionheart]

IsaacShep wrote...

Think that's bad? Try Liara's canon romance with that constant hugging with Shepard and not-subtle-at-all "Psssst! Pick Liara!" from BioWare during Genesis. Why is my Shep hugging her and not Ash & Kaidan? And Tali's loyalty mission was also railroaded as hell, every option for Shep is written in BFFs perspective, even the one in which you expose her father the writers make sure you know it's about Shep "caring for Tali" and she can't stop talking how she knows "you tried to help".

I agree, it's pretty suspension of disbelief breaking if you spent the entire previous game being a douche to them, but then characters like Tali and Liara speak of Shep of being the most awesome guy ever.

[Chewin]

PrinceLionheart wrote...
I agree, it's pretty suspension of disbelief breaking if you spent the entire previous game being a douche to them, but then characters like Tali and Liara speak of Shep of being the most awesome guy ever.

That happens a lot when you save a girls life.

[Ryzaki]

Rogue Unit wrote...

Waiting to see how pissed everyone will be when to find out your forced to be Kaidan and Ashley BFF in ME3.

...I freely admit I will nerdrage if that's the case. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

I would say that forced friendships are better than forced nonfriendships. Neither is ideal, but there's only so much disk space.

I agree. I hate being hostile to Udina in ME2 (and 1, but you could be less so).

[Dean_the_Young]

BlueMagitek wrote...

I never understood the entire "Garrus == Bro" thing. All he did in ME 1 was complain about the cold and all he does in ME2 is calibrations. I don't hate him, I just don't see where all the love for him comes from.

Though he does have some nice lines in ME 2, I'll give him that.

He tells dirty jokes, talks about that chick he banged a few years ago, and had a testacle joke back in ME1.

Total bro sign.

[Dean_the_Young]

wizardryforever wrote...

While ME2 may not give you opportunities to insult Garrus/Tali/Liara, the easiest way to not be friends with them is to a) not talk to them (since you don't talk to people you hate unless you must), don't take them on missions (if you don't like them, why do you want them with you?) and most importantly, c) DON"T DO THEIR LOYALTY MISSION.

Seriously, if you do the above, you make no friendly remarks to them and they make none to you.  It's astoundingly simple.

This is the classic 'if you don't like everything one way, don't have anything' argument. And it falls for most of the same reasons. There are plenty of reasons besides friendship to talk with someone or do their loyalty mission.

Professionalism, for one: you are a leader, you need your team at its best, and addressing them is a good part of handling that. Doing so, however, doesn't mean you have to like them buddy-buddy: even in ME2 with characters like Kelly you could be intimate OR casual OR purely professional.

Another is personal motivation. I might not like Liara, but if I hate the Shadow Broker I'd have reason to help Liara bring him down.


While it's impossible to account for every scenario or outlook, that doesn't mean one particular perspective in particular has to be the only one. For 90% of the game and a majority of the characters, we don't have this problem: Mordin is a superb example, because you can range from confrontational to agreeable in private and the loyalty mission.

Why should a standard loyalty mission like Mordin's enable Shepard to be one of two radically different opinions (or neutral) in tone, but a major DLC like Shadow Broker slots every Shepard not only into one pathway, but a pathway that isn't neutral?

[Golden Owl]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

While ME2 may not give you opportunities to insult Garrus/Tali/Liara, the easiest way to not be friends with them is to a) not talk to them (since you don't talk to people you hate unless you must), don't take them on missions (if you don't like them, why do you want them with you?) and most importantly, c) DON"T DO THEIR LOYALTY MISSION.

Seriously, if you do the above, you make no friendly remarks to them and they make none to you.  It's astoundingly simple.

This is the classic 'if you don't like everything one way, don't have anything' argument. And it falls for most of the same reasons. There are plenty of reasons besides friendship to talk with someone or do their loyalty mission.

Professionalism, for one: you are a leader, you need your team at its best, and addressing them is a good part of handling that. Doing so, however, doesn't mean you have to like them buddy-buddy: even in ME2 with characters like Kelly you could be intimate OR casual OR purely professional.

Another is personal motivation. I might not like Liara, but if I hate the Shadow Broker I'd have reason to help Liara bring him down.


While it's impossible to account for every scenario or outlook, that doesn't mean one particular perspective in particular has to be the only one. For 90% of the game and a majority of the characters, we don't have this problem: Mordin is a superb example, because you can range from confrontational to agreeable in private and the loyalty mission.

Why should a standard loyalty mission like Mordin's enable Shepard to be one of two radically different opinions (or neutral) in tone, but a major DLC like Shadow Broker slots every Shepard not only into one pathway, but a pathway that isn't neutral?

Very much this!....Quite the frustration with Miranda and Liara....treating squad dialog like Kelly's would have been perfect.

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

I was never into the whole professionalism thing. I had three demeanors: romantic, friendly, or butthole. Only one of my Sheps went to the butthole side, and he was like that with everybody.

Modifié par Neverwinter_Knight77, 09 octobre 2011 - 01:29 .

[wizardryforever]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

While ME2 may not give you opportunities to insult Garrus/Tali/Liara, the easiest way to not be friends with them is to a) not talk to them (since you don't talk to people you hate unless you must), don't take them on missions (if you don't like them, why do you want them with you?) and most importantly, c) DON"T DO THEIR LOYALTY MISSION.

Seriously, if you do the above, you make no friendly remarks to them and they make none to you.  It's astoundingly simple.

This is the classic 'if you don't like everything one way, don't have anything' argument. And it falls for most of the same reasons. There are plenty of reasons besides friendship to talk with someone or do their loyalty mission.

Professionalism, for one: you are a leader, you need your team at its best, and addressing them is a good part of handling that. Doing so, however, doesn't mean you have to like them buddy-buddy: even in ME2 with characters like Kelly you could be intimate OR casual OR purely professional.

Another is personal motivation. I might not like Liara, but if I hate the Shadow Broker I'd have reason to help Liara bring him down.


While it's impossible to account for every scenario or outlook, that doesn't mean one particular perspective in particular has to be the only one. For 90% of the game and a majority of the characters, we don't have this problem: Mordin is a superb example, because you can range from confrontational to agreeable in private and the loyalty mission.

Why should a standard loyalty mission like Mordin's enable Shepard to be one of two radically different opinions (or neutral) in tone, but a major DLC like Shadow Broker slots every Shepard not only into one pathway, but a pathway that isn't neutral?

I was under the impression that the thing being argued for in this thread is non-friendship, not a specific kind (ie professionalism).

In pretty much all other instances besides LotSB, there is a neutral, professional option.  If you come up to someone and ask how they're doing, and it's a professional visit, don't take the options that make you seem like friends.  Granted most of the time this results in cutting the conversation short, but you get what you want.  And if you're doing a loyalty mission for professional reasons, there is always a businesslike tone that is available.  However, if people like the OP are whining that they want to be a dick to characters (for whatever reasons) and then say that the game doesn't do enough to recognize it, that's BS.  I've already outlined the way you neglect characters if you don't like them.

[Golden Owl]

wizardryforever wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

While ME2 may not give you opportunities to insult Garrus/Tali/Liara, the easiest way to not be friends with them is to a) not talk to them (since you don't talk to people you hate unless you must), don't take them on missions (if you don't like them, why do you want them with you?) and most importantly, c) DON"T DO THEIR LOYALTY MISSION.

Seriously, if you do the above, you make no friendly remarks to them and they make none to you.  It's astoundingly simple.

This is the classic 'if you don't like everything one way, don't have anything' argument. And it falls for most of the same reasons. There are plenty of reasons besides friendship to talk with someone or do their loyalty mission.

Professionalism, for one: you are a leader, you need your team at its best, and addressing them is a good part of handling that. Doing so, however, doesn't mean you have to like them buddy-buddy: even in ME2 with characters like Kelly you could be intimate OR casual OR purely professional.

Another is personal motivation. I might not like Liara, but if I hate the Shadow Broker I'd have reason to help Liara bring him down.


While it's impossible to account for every scenario or outlook, that doesn't mean one particular perspective in particular has to be the only one. For 90% of the game and a majority of the characters, we don't have this problem: Mordin is a superb example, because you can range from confrontational to agreeable in private and the loyalty mission.

Why should a standard loyalty mission like Mordin's enable Shepard to be one of two radically different opinions (or neutral) in tone, but a major DLC like Shadow Broker slots every Shepard not only into one pathway, but a pathway that isn't neutral?

I was under the impression that the thing being argued for in this thread is non-friendship, not a specific kind (ie professionalism).

In pretty much all other instances besides LotSB, there is a neutral, professional option.  If you come up to someone and ask how they're doing, and it's a professional visit, don't take the options that make you seem like friends.  Granted most of the time this results in cutting the conversation short, but you get what you want.  And if you're doing a loyalty mission for professional reasons, there is always a businesslike tone that is available.  However, if people like the OP are whining that they want to be a dick to characters (for whatever reasons) and then say that the game doesn't do enough to recognize it, that's BS.  I've already outlined the way you neglect characters if you don't like them.

Doesn't always work that way...try talking to Miranda without "Tell me about yourself Miranda" if all your after is info on Cerberus..."Placing you on the team was the best thing tIM did" or the alternative "Your jealous"....Not much room to move there.

[wizardryforever]

Golden Owl wrote...
Doesn't always work that way...try talking to Miranda without "Tell me about yourself Miranda" if all your after is info on Cerberus..."Placing you on the team was the best thing tIM did" or the alternative "Your jealous"....Not much room to move there.

In which case you pick the more professional option.  Do you consider the empty compliment or the baseless insult to be more professional?  The first option always seemed like Shepard was just being nice, not that he/she really believed that.  At least that's what Shepard's tone implies.

[Golden Owl]

wizardryforever wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...
Doesn't always work that way...try talking to Miranda without "Tell me about yourself Miranda" if all your after is info on Cerberus..."Placing you on the team was the best thing tIM did" or the alternative "Your jealous"....Not much room to move there.

In which case you pick the more professional option.  Do you consider the empty compliment or the baseless insult to be more professional?  The first option always seemed like Shepard was just being nice, not that he/she really believed that.  At least that's what Shepard's tone implies.

Both are as far from professional as can be gotten....suck up or be a cad....Dean is spot on, we need professional dialog choices....As for Shep just being nice, his a Marine not a 'feel good' therapist, I expect him to speak like one.

[Anacronian Stryx]

But i want to be friends with Thanix...aww

[Sajuro]

I think canon friendships are vital
because friendship is magic

[wizardryforever]

Golden Owl wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...
Doesn't always work that way...try talking to Miranda without "Tell me about yourself Miranda" if all your after is info on Cerberus..."Placing you on the team was the best thing tIM did" or the alternative "Your jealous"....Not much room to move there.

In which case you pick the more professional option.  Do you consider the empty compliment or the baseless insult to be more professional?  The first option always seemed like Shepard was just being nice, not that he/she really believed that.  At least that's what Shepard's tone implies.

Both are as far from professional as can be gotten....suck up or be a cad....Dean is spot on, we need professional dialog choices....As for Shep just being nice, his a Marine not a 'feel good' therapist, I expect him to speak like one.

You and Dean are both acting like such choices are completely unavailable 100% of the time, which is simply not true.  10% is closer, though even that is being generous.  Should there be consistency?  Yes, of course.  So the professional options that are there 90% of the time should be there 100% of the time.  But it is far from the widespread problem you're painting it as.