35 réponses à ce sujet

[Odd Hermit]

Why?
Might as well say "congratulations your enemies are stupid".

[Inarai]

Looks more intimidating. The guy in plate mail is perceived to be the larger threat than the guy in leather or a dress.

[Blessed Silence]

And if I was anything, I'd go for that one cowering in the corner ...



It really doesn't make sense to me because creatures head fo rme first anyway with their ranged attacks .. as a Spirit Healer.



*shrug*

[Spyndel]

No human would make the same decision, obviously, but I imagine it was done to keep the game playable in terms of challenge. If the AI picked targets they way it should, I can imagine the game being very difficult for the majority of people, to the point of being unplayable if mages and healers were surrounded in the first few seconds of every battle before tanks could take control and removed from the field.



Still, I'd like to see a mod that makes smarter AI.

[metatrans]

its just a contrivance to make it possible for Warriors to tank without having to build up too much of a complicated aggro management system.



yeah, we know that really the accepted best tactic is "kill the robes first". they're squishy and extremely dangerous. but hey, the game would be really problematic to balance if monsters played with the PvP mindset.



would you be having any fun if the dragon ignored your warrior and just jumped right to your mages and put them in the jaws of death right away? it would reduce the game to parties of 4 warriors constantly chugging heal potions. not terribly interesting.

[suzanne536]

The monsters know the robes will end up out of mana, and running for their lives after the tanks have died. The robes running and hoping that the mana and that last spell will hurry up an regenerate before that boss catches them. Happens to my poor mage all the time.

[Spyndel]

suzanne536 wrote...

The monsters know the robes will end up out of mana, and running for their lives after the tanks have died. The robes running and hoping that the mana and that last spell will hurry up an regenerate before that boss catches them. Happens to my poor mage all the time.

Well, its not even a matter of calculating the threat of mages and healers (which is considerable), just a matter of sound battlefield strategy.  You want to remove as many pieces from the board as fast as possible so you can FF on the tough ones, so youre going to start by getting rid of the weakest looking pieces as fast as possible, not the toughest ones.

You can rationalize that maybe everyone in the game is stupid and doesnt realize the threat that mages represent, but theres no way to rationalize throwing yourself againt a brick wall first, when theres a nice squishy tomato right next to him.


But like I said, obviously the game would be very challenging if the AI made those decisions the right way, perhaps too challenging for most people, at least with the rather tame aggro management tools the tanks have in the game.

[oneword]

well, I also found that pretty strange... I tried to explain it to myself and this is what I came up with...

light armored are fast and agile - means hard to hit , while heavy armored are easier to hit because of the weight of armor, their disability to move quickly? O_x

[Jinnth]

Well, this is not much different than "taunt". If enemies were smart they would ignore it and kill your mages.

RPGs would probably be too hard without some kind of aggro management system.

If the high dragon on nightamre went for low armored targets first and switched targets when you force field someone, it would be be nearly impossible to kill.

Modifié par Jinnth, 22 novembre 2009 - 09:49 .

[JJM152]

Is anyone sure that this is even true? Last night I had Morrigan tank the high dragon and Alistair couldn't get aggro back the entire fight.

[Jinnth]

JJM152 wrote...

Is anyone sure that this is even true? Last night I had Morrigan tank the high dragon and Alistair couldn't get aggro back the entire fight.

Well, I can't say I've seen it in action. Maybe the better AI of high difficulties reduces this effect(I only play on nightmare). Usually they go for whoever they see first than I use taunt and they go on my tank, if not than the "threaten" sustained talent should make them turn around.

Modifié par Jinnth, 22 novembre 2009 - 09:48 .

[Spyndel]

JJM152 wrote...

Is anyone sure that this is even true? Last night I had Morrigan tank the high dragon and Alistair couldn't get aggro back the entire fight.

The armor preference assumes everyone standing still and doing nothing.  If Morrigan is in somebodys face and doing more damage to someone, they will see her as the greatest threat, and Allistar (who typically has meager damage output) will be unlikely to get it back without using Taunt.

Dragons, though, arent a good example of AI for many reasons. 

Modifié par Spyndel, 22 novembre 2009 - 09:53 .

[Dark83]

It doesn't really matter, this only affects initial aggro, and the way threat tallies, it's blown through quite quickly.



The reason they do this is the same as in pre-4e D&D. The tank classes don't really have a means to prevent anyone from running past them, so they bypass that a bit by letting them get targetted first. After that, it becomes standard threat management as that initial threat barely registers once you're engaged.

[Rugaru]

hmm dragon AI upgrade...they never land, take out your mages and ranged first...then what you going to do? shake your sword at them and hope they don't fry you in your tin can oven?



If you want smart (realistic?) AI then people playing would have to be damn near chess masters or commanders themselves to stand any chance of winning a single fight. A realistic bandit ambush would mean that most of the people doing the active killing would not be seen because they would be under cover shooting arrows at you.

[Kyrellic]

Dark83 wrote...

It doesn't really matter, this only affects initial aggro, and the way threat tallies, it's blown through quite quickly.

The reason they do this is the same as in pre-4e D&D. The tank classes don't really have a means to prevent anyone from running past them, so they bypass that a bit by letting them get targetted first. After that, it becomes standard threat management as that initial threat barely registers once you're engaged.

I'm not certain what editions of D&D you are familiar with, but 3rd edition characters have an option called "ready". There are also "attacks of opportunity". The two combined make trying to run past the heavily armed and armored people to attack the girl in the robe (apparel which not one of my wizards/sorcerers have ever worn) a lesson in stupidity.
Although, unless you are referring to CRPG adaptations of an inherently turn-based system (D&D) to a real-time medium (like, say, NWN), a DM decides just how intelligently a given encounter fights.
I've decimated parties because they couldn't wrap their minds around the concept of a White dragon fighting intelligently (fly-by attack, etc.) They had their minds locked into the "white dragons are stupid" paradigm rather than "white dragons are -only- as intelligent as a human".

[cipher86]

Spyndel, your avatar is quite possibly the ugliest I have ever seen. And it made me lol.

[Spyndel]

cipher86 wrote...

Spyndel, your avatar is quite possibly the ugliest I have ever seen. And it made me lol.

THanks.  I worked hard on it.  I actually have a version that is even worse with bright red hair, but that didnt upload for some reason.

[Lord Phoebus]

Enemies are attracted to shiny objects? Maybe they can't take the mages seriously because their robes/hats look so ridiculous?  Darkspawn blood is higly ferromagnetic? They took Sun Tzu's warning about not attacking the enemy's elite troops a bit too close to heart? We're talking about an AI that'll happily pound away on a force fielded character so don't look too closely. Of course if the AI was smart there would be quite a few fights where the entire party would be dead before they could take a single action.

Aggro systems are a stupid byproduct of MMOs, no real RPG should use one. Enemies should target the mages first, and that's why mages should have glyphs and paralysis spells in reserve. Warriors should be lowest priority, they're hard to kill and they do the least damage. I wonder how hard it would be to rip the aggro system out of the AI and replace it something sensible? You would have to replace taunt, threaten, etc. with something else but it would be a better system.

Modifié par Lord Phoebus, 23 novembre 2009 - 03:01 .

[AustrianAndI]

Odd Hermit wrote...

Why?
Might as well say "congratulations your enemies are stupid".

I thought it was pretty obvious that this was a balancing method in the game so all your enemies don't run past your tank and pwn your mage.

[Cyrilix2]

I tend to go for the orange mobs / yellow mobs first as opposed to the white ones, because I know the orange ones can wreak havoc on my party if I don't control them. The key word is control. If you go and kill the white mobs first and give the orange ones the time to bash on your weak characters / do nasty things to them, then I find you're more likely to lose a party member. This isn't really a situation of: "weak defense / high offense mob vs. high defense / weak offense mob". It's more of "high defense / high offense mob vs. weak defense / weak offense" mob.



Of course, it's a no brainer to kill the mages first. I play hard difficulty, so if you don't touch them first, they will use all sorts of nasties like crushing prison and chain lightning and fireball in rapid succession, which deals like 5x as much damage as several of their melee mobs can do. What I hate most is crushing prison. It's automatic GG for a given party member. No second chance, no ability to stop them from using it. The only way to stop them is if you use it on them first, which is why I think it's overpowered. There should be a higher resistance to the effect. I play a full melee / archer party, so my party isn't exactly balanced, but shooting arrows at them doesn't work since they will heal up and then proceed to blast you.

[gurugeorge]

Yeah there seem to be two schools of thought on this - all on one to get the boss down quick, or remove the whites first? I've seen people in MMOs do it both ways.

Side note re. the armour thing - it's a common misconception that plate armour was cumbersome IRL. Actually it wasn't, it was very well made to allow a great range of movement. You did have to be strong to wear it, but your speed and agility wasn't decreased all that much. Full plate knights were highly skilled, highly trained and EXTREMELY dangerous. (This is all from research in the last 10 years into these things, based on reconstructions and people trying to figure out the old Renaissance martial arts manuals.)

Modifié par gurugeorge, 23 novembre 2009 - 04:54 .

[AstralFire]

I'm not certain what editions of D&D you are familiar with, but 3rd edition characters have an option called "ready". There are also "attacks of opportunity". The two combined make trying to run past the heavily armed and armored people to attack the girl in the robe (apparel which not one of my wizards/sorcerers have ever worn) a lesson in stupidity.
Although, unless you are referring to CRPG adaptations of an inherently turn-based system (D&D) to a real-time medium (like, say, NWN), a DM decides just how intelligently a given encounter fights.
I've decimated parties because they couldn't wrap their minds around the concept of a White dragon fighting intelligently (fly-by attack, etc.) They had their minds locked into the "white dragons are stupid" paradigm rather than "white dragons are -only- as intelligent as a human".

Attempting to do battlefield control as melee in 3E D&D core is laughable unless you're using size+spiked chain shenanigans, which don't fit most characters. It is very possible with enough optimization-fu or Tome of Battle by late 3.5, though. Hence the differing views.

[HogfatherAU]

I guess it depends on how dangerous most mages are - and how common out in the world?

Warriors in steel with pointy sticks are very visible, obviously dangerous and probably much more common. The guy in a dress could be a dangerous arch mage or a guy in a dress, apprentice, scholar etc.

They do seem to understand the danger once they've been set on fire or frozen once or twice!

[Dark83]

Kyrellic wrote...

I'm not certain what editions of D&D you are familiar with, but 3rd edition characters have an option called "ready". There are also "attacks of opportunity". The two combined make trying to run past the heavily armed and armored people to attack the girl in the robe (apparel which not one of my wizards/sorcerers have ever worn) a lesson in stupidity.

AstralFire addressed part of it. If you're specalized build, then you may have a point.
In 4e, Fighters and other Defenders have special disincentives to ignoring them.

In 2e and 3e, there's nothing that actually stops the enemy from ignoring the front line. As sufficient levels, an enemy Tumble will just avoid your AoOs, and even before that you only get one AoO per round. So they take at most one hit. If you invest in Combat Reflexes, you get Dex amount, but that's still just one basic attack on that one enemy. Ready will let you hit them, but given the 3e combat mechanics, your fighters basically just whack. So in essense, all Ready does is delay when you attack - it has nothing to do with blocking or holding the enemy. The only thing you get as a disinventive is AoOs, and it doesn't do much. Especially if you're facing larger numbers of creatures.

I'm familiar with 3e and 4e, though I'm rusty on 3e now as I haven't played for a while. If you look at the WotC boards, you'll see I used to be fairly respected and active on the respective CharOp boards. So I do know what I'm talking about. I'm a min-maxing powergamer, I admit - which makes me very aware of the strengths and weaknesses of my characters.

[The Dead Milkman]

Odd Hermit wrote...

Why?
Might as well say "congratulations your enemies are stupid".

I think you are stupid. When you fight a baddie, you target the toughest one first right?

Why shouldn't your enemies?