311 réponses à ce sujet

[CptData]

iakus wrote...

whywhywhywhy wrote...

I disagree about Shepard's answers, they are bad if you feel Shepard has the burden of proving his position to the VS.  Viewed from that perspective his answers might have seem like crap.  But that's not how trust works, I think we all can say that Shepard earned the VS's trust.  Was that trust so weak it couldn't survive rumors ?  Seems so.  Is that Shepard's fault ? No.

Now I'm not saying the VS owed Shepard blind trust but I do feel he's earned the benefit of a doubt.  The VS had the right to ask Shepard to explain and then listen.  Instead the VS caused an incident, one they are completely responsible for.

To a certain extent he does have to prove himself.  The fact that Shepard is working for Cerberus cannot be entirely overlooked.  I would definitely say that Shepard had earned the right to be heard out.  However, he doesn't claim that right.  he makes grand statements without backing them up, then gives up when the VS expresses doubt.  That's bad.  Very bad.  But by the same token, the VS doesn't demand proof or even details on Shepard's claims.  That's also bad.

That's the big problem. Actually, the VS is reacting the right way - because Shepard is not giving away any good reasons why s/he is working for Cerberus.

The main issue I have with that scene is, as stated countless times before, it's lack of good writing. Seems as if some stuff got cut before the release and the scene never got another review. Or we had 2 or 3 writers working at the same scene and too many cooks spoiled the broth.
Or, and that's an idea that becomes more and more prominent: the BW staff WANTED a "break up" here, so you can concentrate on a new LI in ME2. That explains everything in my eyes. BW wants you to forget the VS as LI in ME2 and move on. Those who do can choose between 3 LI. Those who doesn't will have a chance to regain love of VS-LI in ME3.

If the VS was your LI, why did s/he not ask you more questions? Not interested anymore? Too overwhelmed by emotions? If this is the case, then the guy responsible for scene/character animation kinda failed. I mean, it is totally understandable you can't think straight if something similar happens to you, but you still want to hear what the one in front of you has to say.

And Shepard? Lemme say it this way: usually s/he acts quite suave (or ruthless) and can convince almost everyone with words. S/he made Saren killing himself just with words (at least some Shepards do so). But in Horizon Shepard fails so incredible hard ... bad day, Skipper? Or just bad writing?

[Ryzaki]

Eh. My Shepard proved himself when he stopped the Reapers for a 2nd and then 3rd time.

The VS can kick rocks if they think they're better than him.

[Ravensword]

I just wanna bump this quote by DNI because I think it's very poignant.

DoNotIngest wrote...

[...]

Surely it was wiser for Ashdan (The entity formerly known as Ashley or Kaidan, which, as Cheez stated, has been fused into one) to remain in their Reaper-owning Alliance positions and keep their hands clean of that devil Shepard, who'd never trust them! Yes, preventing the abduction of billions of humans and the creation of another Reaper is far below patrol duty on Generic Alliance Vessel #4431.


Even as a Spectre, Ashdan was never a leader. One half of it had it's entire squad killed and is afraid & distrustful of other races, the other is a recluse. The fusion has left it a bitter, veangeful hermit.



Alright, I was giggling to no end for that last sentence. Obviously not serious there. But the VS could only match Shepard's status, and they don't use it to break him out, once he's free he's a Spectre again, so what was the point? Besides, anything Shepard has is enhance by his previous deeds, whereas Kaidan Alenko and Ashley Williams aren't exactly legendary.

[alperez]

jreezy wrote...

It's not that I don't like it, it's just a bit much for me sometimes.

Since i'm probably the most guilty when it comes to creating wall's of text, i sympathise, the problem is though sometimes when trying to respond to points someone else has brought up especially when those points are more complex than usual, simply writing succint one sentence answers just doesn't cut it.

Also it can look a tad snotty when someone's arguing a point in detailed fashion and you respond with a single sentence that while it may technically be a counterpoint it instead comes across as dismissive.

[alperez]

CptData brings up some very interesting points as usual.

Shepard for some reason goes from being the smooth talking hero to a complete idiot in terms of how he responds to both the situation he's in and the concerns the vs raises.

Pre and post horizon he can and does talk his way out and into any situation he wants, on Horizon he can't explain his actions, can't calm the situation and forgets the fact he has evidence to back up his claims.

In that respect its very badly written, instead of the situation it should or could have been, one that could have accomplished the same basic outcome (no VS. on the SM), it turns into a a complete mess, which unsuprisingly leads to people imo making the wrong conclussion regarding the VS.

I'd love to be able to say the situation was forced so you'd consider abandoning the VS either as a squadmate or romance option, so they could create tension in me3.

But that would be giving them way too much credit when the truth of the matter is much more simple, they phoned it in, rather than expend any effort or time they just instead went with the cheapest, easiest, tackiest way to achieve their goal, creating a horrible scene that try as i might to defend the intent, i can't defend the execution of.

[CptData]

alperez wrote...

CptData brings up some very interesting points as usual.

Shepard for some reason goes from being the smooth talking hero to a complete idiot in terms of how he responds to both the situation he's in and the concerns the vs raises.

Pre and post horizon he can and does talk his way out and into any situation he wants, on Horizon he can't explain his actions, can't calm the situation and forgets the fact he has evidence to back up his claims.

In that respect its very badly written, instead of the situation it should or could have been, one that could have accomplished the same basic outcome (no VS. on the SM), it turns into a a complete mess, which unsuprisingly leads to people imo making the wrong conclussion regarding the VS.

I'd love to be able to say the situation was forced so you'd consider abandoning the VS either as a squadmate or romance option, so they could create tension in me3.

But that would be giving them way too much credit when the truth of the matter is much more simple, they phoned it in, rather than expend any effort or time they just instead went with the cheapest, easiest, tackiest way to achieve their goal, creating a horrible scene that try as i might to defend the intent, i can't defend the execution of.

Exactly. It's not the fault of the VS or Shepard that players complain here, but it's a badly done scene.

I just can asume some players feel kinda cheated. Others feel offended, especially after release of LotSB when Liara-mancers got some "fan service" (sounds a bit rude, I'm sorry).
Don't wanna go deeper into that Liara-stuff - I'm just wondering why she gets some "extra treatment" in books, comics and ME2. Because it's easier? Because she can't die in ME, while Shepard has to decide against Kaidan or Ashley on Virmire (which makes it difficult for comic authors - either Ash is canon or Kaidan)? I don't care, I'm fine with LotBS - it's a great DLC worth every single cent.

So, there is only one question left:

Why did BW what BW did with that Horizon scene?

-> Forced break up?
In this case, why did they added that message from Ashley / Kaidan to fix that break up?
Must say, this is "just" a game. Players can do whatever they want.
If the player wants to stay faithful, it shouldn't come with such a burden. If the player wants to go after a new LI, s/he would do that, regardless of the events on Horizon.

-> Cut content?
What exactly got cut from the scene? Additional dialogue so Shepard can explain stuff? Maybe even an entirely different scene with a different outcome?
Same here as in first point: a player that wants to continue his/her current romance won't go after a new one. But s/he would feel better if they could talk to Ash/Kaidan on Horizon and clear things up: via dialogue or assignment or another meeting on the Citadel AFTER Horizon. That's imo better than a message.
A player that doesn't want to continue his/her relationship could break up via dialogue, assignment, second meeting etc.

[alperez]

CptData

If you take LOSB out of the equation the liara scene on Illium is just as bad imo, while it doesn't carry the same accusations that the scene on Horizon does, it created at the time an almost equal reaction regarding Liara.

The justification behind why Liara can't go with Shepard is actually weaker than the justification they came up with to explain why the VS couldn't, off course though this gets offset by LOSB itself, which re-establishes the relationship with Liara (romanced or not).

If you look at the 2 scenes together it almost suggess that either the intent was to create a rift or put an obstacle between Shepard and Liara,Ash/Kaiden which would make it more likely that players would start a new relationship, therby creating a setup for me3 that this could cause you an additional problem.

Or more likely imo, they just tried to create both scenes with the minimum of effort, so rather than doing different versions of each (depending on your relationships with the characters), they just added or subtracted a line of dialogue here and there to make it seem different if you romanced a character or not.

Basically they tried to make the scenes be all things to everyone, but because they did so with the minimum effort instead the perception we end up with is they just don't play out right.

The Liara scene is a good example of what i mean by this, rather than come up with 2 seperate and justifiable reasons why Liara can't go with Shepard, instead we get the whole SB reasoning. This works if Liara is non romanced but if she was your LI its a pretty poor excuse why she can't go with Shepard especially with the backstory.

Think about it, Liara searches for Shepards body, finds it, saves it from the SB, hands it over to cerberus who reassemble Shepard who then turns up only for Liara as an LI to say sorry can't go with you Shepard have to find the SB, seriously the man she loves dies, is brought back from the dead and rather than go with him, she instead basically blanks him.

Non romanced i could buy that, romanced it makes no sense whatsoever, but rather than do 2 scenes that both work, they instead put in one mish mash it a little and in the end it too falls short, this imo is what they did with Horizon also.

[CptData]

Just to clear things up: I have no Shepard romancing Liara. She's not my type *g*
Nope - didn't see that. However, Liara gets some extra treatment I can't fully explain, while the VS is just barely mentioned at all in ME2. I mean, sure, s/he has a job to do and since it's a big galaxy Shepard and the VS won't run into each other again every day or so.

Then again - I simply can't believe Shepard didn't even try to contact the VS post-Horizon. Messages get blocked by Cerberus? Okay - lets go to Citadel, talk to Anderson, he can pass a message to VS. Or use the SB (either Liara or the Yahg) via agents to get a message to the VS. Heck with it, Shepard isn't a DAU that can't imagine alternatives if everything else fails.

*sigh* Whatever, we won't see a DLC dealing with the VS in ME2, lets hope BW does a great job with ME3 and we're going to see a nice explanation why Shepard never tried to contact the VS again.

Modifié par CptData, 13 octobre 2011 - 12:57 .

[alperez]

CptData

If i remember correctly, if you visit Anderson pre Horizon, he basically refuses to tell you where the VS is because your working with cerberus, funny enough its something i've always meant to mentio to those people who say put Anderson forward as being supportive of Shepard.

Tim basically tells you that you can't contact the VS. because he doesn't know where they are, but i can accept that lie because he's trying to isolate Shepard, but Anderson's refusal to tell you annoyed me.

In terms of Liara, i didn't mean to suggest that you had romanced her, it was more i was trying to show the similarities in how both scenes were handled.

A romanced Liara using the same excuse that the non romanced Liara does in order not to go with Shepard imo just makes no sense, that's the point i was trying to make.

Like i said i think they created a scenario that achieved the rift they wanted but rather than spend any time making that scenario work depending on the relationship Shepard had with the character, they just added a line here and there as if that was enough.

Its because of that, because they did the scenes with so little effort or without thinking them through that Horizon imo comes off as if there is something missing.

Basically they spent too much time making sure they got the conclussion they wanted from the scenes and not enough time on the journey to that conclussion, when its actually the journey itself thats important.

[TobiTobsen]

CptData wrote...

*sigh* Whatever, we won't see a DLC dealing with the VS in ME2, lets hope BW does a great job with ME3 and we're going to see a nice explanation why Shepard never tried to contact the VS again.

Because the truth is Shep is an ****. Didn't even try to contact his mother

[CptData]

alperez wrote...

CptData

If i remember correctly, if you visit Anderson pre Horizon, he basically refuses to tell you where the VS is because your working with cerberus, funny enough its something i've always meant to mentio to those people who say put Anderson forward as being supportive of Shepard.

*snippety snip*

Basically they spent too much time making sure they got the conclussion they wanted from the scenes and not enough time on the journey to that conclussion, when its actually the journey itself thats important.

Actually I was talking about returning to Citadel AFTER you did the Horizon mission. Since that mission seems to trigger half of the game (future LI, Arrival mission, ...), it shouldn't have to be that difficult to change dialogue options for Anderson. It happened, since you can talk to him and he'll say something different once Horizon is done. But there is no option to "I'd like to contact Ashley/Kaidan" for a small assignment on the Citadel where you can talk to the VS.

That's all.

That Horizon-scene wouldn't hurt that bad with an option to deal with the "break up" in ME2 later. A message alone doesn't fix it.

[ladyvader]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

IMO, they got real emotional and everything and weren't thinking straight, and Shepard was derp.

Their first impression is just like "omg you're alive... and you didn't tell me, why?" And then the whole thing is about Cerberus, which would be akin to telling Tali you're working with the geth (see if she'd support you then). It's a lot to take in, and then they are right in having reservations about your judgement. TIM did indeed manipulate you more than once over the course of the mission.

In the end, I think they probably feel bad about what they said. Of course, in the BW world they only care enough to mail you an apology if you slept with them. And because of who they work for, obviously they can't just drop everything and join up with you. Liara couldn't, neither would Wrex. Tali/Garrus weren't doing anything better.

Take Legion with you on her recruitment mission.  She pulls a gun on Legion and Shepard stands in the way.  It was a funny scene.  Even Kal'Reegar says something about Legion.

[TobiTobsen]

jreezy wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

CptData wrote...

*sigh* Whatever, we won't see a DLC dealing with the VS in ME2, lets hope BW does a great job with ME3 and we're going to see a nice explanation why Shepard never tried to contact the VS again.

Because the truth is Shep is an ****. Didn't even try to contact his mother

Pfft People still do that?

Well... I think it's an act of courtesy to inform you mother should you rise from the dead

[ladyvader]

jreezy wrote...

Shepard forgot to bring his/her magical blue and red dialogue options with him/her when talking to Ashley/Kaidan on Horizon.

LOL

You would think having Garrus with you along with either Grunt or Mordin would be telling enough for Ash/Kaidan to see that Shepard isn't really working for Cerberus.  It was the only thing they focused on....Cerberus.  Not the Collectors taking the colonist. 

I wonder if they hid some place and didn't see the husks or was still in the stasis state.

[naddaya]

What I really hate about the scene is the focus on cerberus, while Shepard had been freaking dead for two years. There's very little focus on that, people brush it off as if it was nothing and just jump down Shepard's throat about cerberus. Anderson, Garrus, the VS, basically everyone but Wrex.

[Labrev]

Ravensword wrote...

I just wanna bump this quote by DNI because I think it's very poignant.

DoNotIngest wrote...

Surely it was wiser for Ashdan (The entity formerly known as Ashley or Kaidan, which, as Cheez stated, has been fused into one) to remain in their Reaper-owning Alliance positions and keep their hands clean of that devil Shepard, who'd never trust them! Yes, preventing the abduction of billions of humans and the creation of another Reaper is far below patrol duty on Generic Alliance Vessel #4431.


Even as a Spectre, Ashdan was never a leader. One half of it had it's entire squad killed and is afraid & distrustful of other races, the other is a recluse. The fusion has left it a bitter, veangeful hermit.



Alright, I was giggling to no end for that last sentence. Obviously not serious there. But the VS could only match Shepard's status, and they don't use it to break him out, once he's free he's a Spectre again, so what was the point? Besides, anything Shepard has is enhance by his previous deeds, whereas Kaidan Alenko and Ashley Williams aren't exactly legendary.

LOL @ this.


First off, why is VS on Horizon in the first place? To investigate colony abductions. What happens when the culprit is found to be the Collectors. Alliance starts to evacuate residents of these colonies. The only reason Shepard is doing more is because TIM is actively on top of it and sending Shepard to Horizon/Collector Vessel/Derelict Reaper like the sheep that he is!!!

On that note, the VS was absolutely correct about what they said. TIM used the Reaper threat to manipulate you, sending you once into a trap and another time into a colony he set to get hit. Were they necessary? Yes. Did TIM, by nature, manipulate you? Yes. He acted like he just happened to find those things, he did not tell you he was behind both of them. Again, manipulation.

I see you're back to the name-calling game: Kaidan is just some recluse and Ashley "got" her squad killed. Cute. Please revisit my post, top of page 6 (while you're at it, check bottom-of-page-5), if you want to see how silly that game is.

Reality: Ashley survived a surprise attack from the geth, and has legitimate reservations of trust to those that have not appeared to earn it (but puts those differences aside more than once). So essentially, no difference there between her and renegade Shepard, or Sole Survivor background.

As far as we know, that unti was not under her command. If they were, she now has "Ruthless" on top of her SS on her resume. Impressive, two different backgrounds that earn Shepard candidacy for the Spectres in one.

Kaidan, to date, has never lost a solider under his command and is said to have an impressive service record (per Chakwas, I believe). So now we're looking at a potential War Hero background to complete the set. Compare that to Shepard, who stupidly sends Jenkins blind into a geth ambush on Eden Prime. But I suppose since he's "the Shepard" the VS is obliged to worship the ground he walks on.

And no, Shepard is not undisputable because of what he's accomplished. That idea will get you nowhere. You can't prove yourself once and expect to always be respected. You need to continue to prove yourself if you want people to continue to follow you as a leader, otherwise they'll be quick to dump you for someone they like better. Dumped the way Zaeed got dumped by his own men for Vido.


Nothing to see here, move along.

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 13 octobre 2011 - 07:10 .

[Iakus]

CptData wrote...

That's the big problem. Actually, the VS is reacting the right way - because Shepard is not giving away any good reasons why s/he is working for Cerberus.

The main issue I have with that scene is, as stated countless times before, it's lack of good writing. Seems as if some stuff got cut before the release and the scene never got another review. Or we had 2 or 3 writers working at the same scene and too many cooks spoiled the broth.
Or, and that's an idea that becomes more and more prominent: the BW staff WANTED a "break up" here, so you can concentrate on a new LI in ME2. That explains everything in my eyes. BW wants you to forget the VS as LI in ME2 and move on. Those who do can choose between 3 LI. Those who doesn't will have a chance to regain love of VS-LI in ME3.

If the VS was your LI, why did s/he not ask you more questions? Not interested anymore? Too overwhelmed by emotions? If this is the case, then the guy responsible for scene/character animation kinda failed. I mean, it is totally understandable you can't think straight if something similar happens to you, but you still want to hear what the one in front of you has to say.

And Shepard? Lemme say it this way: usually s/he acts quite suave (or ruthless) and can convince almost everyone with words. S/he made Saren killing himself just with words (at least some Shepards do so). But in Horizon Shepard fails so incredible hard ... bad day, Skipper? Or just bad writing?

I'd go a little further and say the VS reacted more appropriately if s/he didn't know or like Shepard very much to begin with.  Like someone who knew Shep more by reputation than interaction (barring the hug and a couple lines of dialogue if romanced) Or like the scene is aimed more at people who didn't know/care about the VS to begin with.   Shepard's doofus answers in turn are basically blowing off an aquaintance like Conrad Verner.

[darthnick427]

LeVaughnX wrote...

I always felt myself closer to Garrus, Tali, Wrex, and Liara than the two humans anyway. Probably why I consider Garrus, Wrex, and Tali to be my Shepard's best friends and that's probably why Liara is my LI and sometimes Tali. After Eden Prime, Ashley and Kaidan just stayed on the ship. So for me it made sense that the aliens were more loyal to me than those two. And while I agree with most of the OP I think the VS will make it up to me. Kaidan and I will be on good terms regardless as I never had any problem with him even tho he died in most play throughs. Ash is alive in most play throughs, as long as she's not a racist anymore I'll be happy and I'll listen to her reasons for not believing me and let her explain herself. If she starts spouting racism at Garrus or Liara again however I'll have to introduce her to the airlock.

Modifié par darthnick427, 13 octobre 2011 - 10:27 .

[alperez]

iakus wrote...

I'd go a little further and say the VS reacted more appropriately if s/he didn't know or like Shepard very much to begin with.  Like someone who knew Shep more by reputation than interaction (barring the hug and a couple lines of dialogue if romanced) Or like the scene is aimed more at people who didn't know/care about the VS to begin with.   Shepard's doofus answers in turn are basically blowing off an aquaintance like Conrad Verner.

That's where i think most of the problems with Horizon really stem from, rather than put the time and effort into creating seperate scenes that fit whatever relationship Shepard may have with the VS, they went the cheap and easy route of one scene to fit all.

They created 2 scenes on horizon, one with Ash, one with Kaiden, both characters are practically merged together even though they have distinctly different personalities, then as if this wasn't bad enough they merge the relationship aspect of the characters together as well, so the only difference we get is a couple of extra lines of dialogue if romanced and a hug instead of a handshake.

Its the very same thing they do with Liara's scene on Illium, very little changes if romanced or non romanced, so that scene too is incredibly bad imo.

There should have been not just a complete different version of the scenes if you were speaking to Ash or Kaiden but a completely different version if they're romanced or not, but rather than expend the effort or time in creating these scenes, instead they took the lazy, cheap route, which doesn't bode well for the future.

I mean if they weren't willing to expend the time and effort then, whats to say they will when it comes to me3 in relation to other characters, we may all end up back here complaining about the actions of Jack or Samara etc. come me3.

Hopefully they've learned their lesson though and won't make the same mistakes again, to do so once is understandble, to do it again is i'm afraid unforgiveable.

[BobZilla84]

Horizon was more than anything poorly delivered see in my opinion they went the route they did because come Mass Effect 3 they wanted alot of mistrust and resentment between Shepard and The Virmire Survivor it's all a part of their plan for The VS.

I figure they want Shepard & The VS to not trust each other and want The VS shadowing Shepard because they are his replacement as a Spectre they have the authority to Intervene and overrule Shepard.

I have a feeling that bioware will make a decision in which Shepard chooses to do something Extreme in which The VS will object and they will get the Wrex Treatment a Bullet

Modifié par BobZilla 2k10, 15 octobre 2011 - 04:30 .