311 réponses à ce sujet

[Labrev]

DoNotIngest wrote...

Meh, I don't see the relevance of the boring, headache prone whiner or the xenophobe wannabe poet that you're saddled with first thing, but to each their own, I guess. Now what makes them so important after originally being auto-slapped into the Normandy and not really affecting anything beyond that, and then abandoning Shep in ME2, I don't know.


Even if they do become Spectres in ME3, apparently they're still following Shepard around, if they're in the Normandy. So they've achieved helping him in ME1, though not being plot-relevant, still helping; Ditched him in ME2; And provided redundant backup Spectre support in ME3. Cool.

LOL I can play that game too:

I don't see the relevance of a turian ex-cop who is an ACTUAL whiner that decided he wanted to play Spectre (and by his own admission, probably didn't even put a dent in Omega's lawlessness and crime when it was said and done) and almost got himself killed, and a quarian daughter of an Admiral who got pretty much her whole squads killed on two different missions that we find her in. ... Over an actual human Spectre and accomplished Alliance soldier in Ash/Kaidan. But to each their own, I guess.


This is hilarious. You were just complaining that Ash/Kaidan weren't willing to join Shepard to save the galaxy. Now that they will in 3, you disregard it as "irrelevant" support? Double-standards FTL.

[Ryzaki]

Yezdigerd wrote...

iakus wrote...


Go back and talk to Anderson after Horizon and mention meeting the VS there.  He tells you that the VS confirmed your story.  The only thing they couldn't prove to the Council was Reaper involvement.

Therefore, by Arrival, Hackett knows Cerberus is not involved in the missing colonies.  Thanks to the VS backing Shepard.

I'm aware of that. The VS managing in the end to conclude that Cerberus isn't behind the collectors. I assume the VS consider Shepard a traitor still?

Shepard is still working for the terrorists, and nothing suggests that the VS has anything to do with Hackett trusting Cerberus operatives to protect alliance interest. rather the opposite considering the VS strong antipathy of Cerberus.

and trying to connect Horizon with the Arrival dlc is weak anyway. Nothing in the dialogue suggests they are related storywise. Even doing Arrival before the Suicide mission makes the latter a joke.

Anyway I wont be in the way for people defending the VS as the lone voice in the ME universe screaming traitor.
heh, even the council who believes Shepard is delusional shows him more trust. It's simple enough to dismiss as bad writing under a deadline.

 

And that's pretty sad. The turian councilor has more faith in Shepard than the VS does.  

Though they do say him joining Cerberus is treason. Anderson just reigns it in. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 octobre 2011 - 04:32 .

[jeweledleah]

Yezdigerd wrote...

iakus wrote...


Go back and talk to Anderson after Horizon and mention meeting the VS there.  He tells you that the VS confirmed your story.  The only thing they couldn't prove to the Council was Reaper involvement.

Therefore, by Arrival, Hackett knows Cerberus is not involved in the missing colonies.  Thanks to the VS backing Shepard.

I'm aware of that. The VS managing in the end to conclude that Cerberus isn't behind the collectors. I assume the VS consider Shepard a traitor still?

Shepard is still working for the terrorists, and nothing suggests that the VS has anything to do with Hackett trusting Cerberus operatives to protect alliance interest. rather the opposite considering the VS strong antipathy of Cerberus.

and trying to connect Horizon with the Arrival dlc is weak anyway. Nothing in the dialogue suggests they are related storywise. Even doing Arrival before the Suicide mission makes the latter a joke.

Anyway I wont be in the way for people defending the VS as the lone voice in the ME universe screaming traitor.
heh, even the council who believes Shepard is delusional shows him more trust. It's simple enough to dismiss as bad writing under a deadline.

actualy - if you do arrival BEFORE suicide mission and then ask Hackett about the colonies?  guess what?  he tells you that now that collector involvement  has been confirmed... they are evacuating what smaller colonies they can and fortifying more of the big ones.  go on.  ask him. 

you are dismissing the connection becasue you don't want to hear it.  Arrival is not on disc, its a DLC and as such, the limitation on when you can play them?  is very deliberately story related NOT game mechanic related.  they could have easily made it available the moment you finished freedom's progress if they wished (like they did with FIREWALKER, NORMANY CRUSH SITE, ZAEED and KASUMI), but it didn't make sence, storywise.

you are ASSUMING that VS still thinks Shepard is a traitor.  but in their letter IF you romanced them, they say that they know you are not, they BOTH appologize, but they still don't know everything that's going on and they still cannot work with Cerberus, so you come back safe now, you hear? and we'll talk then.  one of the bigger issues is the fact that ONLYromanced Shepards get an e-mail.  Bioware should have written 2 versions and all Shepards should have gotten something.  it woudln't even be so difficult.  e-mails are not voice, its just some lines of text.  but I digress.

Turian council doesn't trust Shepard. spectre status that they offoer (and that can be regected)  is a figurehead only.  theyare watching you and they WILL send someone after you if you go over the line.  its a symbolic gesture more then anything else. if you killed them, new council doesn't even want to speak to you.  if you killed them and made Udina the councilor?  you don't even get offered.

@ Funkcase - according to what Kaidan  and Ash  AND Aderson say- they were originaly on Horizon due to the tip that colonie would be abducted next and that Cerberus was behind it.  Shepard at the time was just a rumor.  according to Anderson they were dispatched before your first visit to Citadel) 

[CptData]

Siansonea II wrote...

I am so shocked that this thread has become the duplicate of every other "Kaidan and Ashley suck because they called me—I mean SHEPARD—a traitor on Horizon" thread.

Fact: Shepard IS a traitor. So yeah, calling Shepard a traitor? Justified. You're workin' for Cerberus, Shepard. Cerberus is an avowed enemy of the Alliance and the Council (and now, the quarians as well). So yeah, working with those bozos, for whatever reason, is a betrayal. If you don't want to be called a traitor, Shepard, there's a simple solution. Don't work for the enemies of your previous employer. Or you could just not be such a baby about somebody calling you on your bullsh¡t.

I admire Kaidan and Ashley for not going into Player Character Worship Mode on Horizon, for actually calling Shepard's decision to work for Cerberus into question. And Shepard's bungled responses only reinforce the perplexing discontinuity of Shepard's decision to work for Cerberus so willingly and easily. Shepard didn't explore any other options before signing on the dotted line with the Illusive Man. Of course, the real problem here is Stupid Pointless Death Plot, coupled with Stupid Railroad Plot Device. And because Ashley and Kaidan behave in character, as loyal Alliance Marines who thought they knew the presumed-dead but clearly alive Shepard, they're disparaged by the "Shepard is ME" types. So been there, so done that. Feel free to hate on them if you want, kids.

Na. Never would say "Ashley / Kaidan is mean and insane and sh*t" just because of Horizon.

All I was complaining was how BW dealt with that reunion. Either it was bad writing (Shepard doesn't seem to be able to defend himself - where is Mr. Suave ?!) or most planned content was cut before release - and no one reviewed the scene if everything is working like it should.

To make things clear: if the VS was your LI in ME, you'll get a message in which your LI explains why he/she reacted as he/she did. That's fine for me. Without that message the meeting would have ended as some kind of "break up", Shepard also reacts like someone who just get dumped by his lover. That message is a try to go to the point "our relationship might continue once this is over" so it's the player's decision if you wants to continue that relationship in ME3 or not.

I love Ashley and I like Kaidan (good enough - he's not top on my fav list) and they're important characters I like and care for. They're not less interesting as Wrex or Tali or Garrus just because they're no aliens. And I'm looking forward to ME3 so I can experience the (hopefully well developed) story arc revolving around the VS.

[Xilizhra]

Turian council doesn't trust Shepard. spectre status that they offoer (and that can be regected) is a figurehead only. theyare watching you and they WILL send someone after you if you go over the line. its a symbolic gesture more then anything else. if you killed them, new council doesn't even want to speak to you. if you killed them and made Udina the councilor? you don't even get offered.

A symbolic gesture is, I admit, more than Ashley offered to me (seeing as how I didn't romance her and thus didn't get an email).

[Siansonea]

Obligatory listing of Cerberus' atrocities (that the VS is aware of):

Akuze: Responsible for the deaths of scores of Alliance Marines, experimented on Alliance Marine Corporal Toombs to test the effects of thresher maw acid without his consent, essentially torturing him.
Edolus: Responsible for the deaths of scores of Alliance Marines, due to a trap that lured them to a thresher maw nest.
Binthu: Performed experiments on living creatures, including rachni, and killed Alliance Admiral Kahoku. KILLED an ALLIANCE ADMIRAL.
Argos Rho Cluster/Styx Theta cluster: Responsible for the proliferation of insane rachni on Nepmos and Altahe, resulting in the deaths of many Alliance Marines.

As a high level operative, Kaidan and Ashley may also know about Cerberus' role in attempting to kidnap Gillian Grayson from the Migrant Fleet, as well as Cerberus' role in attempting to experiment on Gillian (depending on how much was revealed to the Alliance by Kahlee Sanders).

So yeah, Cerberus isn't just some wacky group of misfits, vandalizing Alliance ships and putting "kick me" signs on Alliance soldiers. When Kaidan and Ashley say that Shepard is betraying everything they stood for by working with Cerberus, it is a TRUE statement. Cerberus represents everything that is wrong with humanity, and a loyal Alliance Marine would NEVER work with people like that. But some people don't seem to think murder, torture, kidnapping, and vivisection are all that bad. "The ends justify the means" and all that. And all I can say is, I hope someday you're on the receiving end of that double-edged sword. Maybe you'll change your tune.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 06 octobre 2011 - 04:52 .

[Heather Cline]

My opinion of how Ash and Kaidan are acting in ME2 is that they were retconned. Because if any of your interaction with the squad members from ME1 had ported over the conversation would have been a lot different.

As for the OP's post about Ash becoming some bisexual tramp, that isn't true. Ash's character was never stated to be solely straight. In fact according to Bioware there was supposed to be more than just Liara for s/s romance in ME1 but got cut due to time constraints. As for characters supposedly straight for ME2, those dialogue's and romance options were cut because Casey Hudson deemed it so. No other reason other than he could do it and tick off the fans. Just for comparison.

Therefore anyone saying that Ash is 'straight' is deluding themselves.

End of Line.

[Xilizhra]

But some people don't seem to think murder, torture, kidnapping, and vivisection are all that bad. "The ends justify the means" and all that. And all I can say is, I hope someday you're on the receiving end of that double-edged sword. Maybe you'll change your tune.

This is why I destroyed Overlord and the Collector base. Although considering the Alliance's likely heavy Cerberus infiltration, I'm not sure if Ashley's one to talk...

[Dean_the_Young]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

PrimalEden wrote...

Wow. If you got 'Cheez to swear, you've really ticked her off.
*ducks for cover*

Nah, cursing is normal.

It's when type out something calm, verbose, and well thought-out that you should run.

Is it safe yet?

[LeVaughnX]

Heather Cline wrote...

My opinion of how Ash and Kaidan are acting in ME2 is that they were retconned. Because if any of your interaction with the squad members from ME1 had ported over the conversation would have been a lot different.

As for the OP's post about Ash becoming some bisexual tramp, that isn't true. Ash's character was never stated to be solely straight. In fact according to Bioware there was supposed to be more than just Liara for s/s romance in ME1 but got cut due to time constraints. As for characters supposedly straight for ME2, those dialogue's and romance options were cut because Casey Hudson deemed it so. No other reason other than he could do it and tick off the fans. Just for comparison.

Therefore anyone saying that Ash is 'straight' is deluding themselves.

End of Line.

Content Cut or Content Not Added - either way breaking the lore now by throwing it in would still be doing just that; breaking the established lore.

Normally I don't reply to posts of that nature anymore (the same/sex romancers are getting out of hand in my mind - especially Issac) but you seem slightly more civil than the majority of them so I felt like posting is safer here; until Issac randomly busts in with his "Homophobic from Hell" speech...

[Killjoy Cutter]

Heather Cline wrote...
As for the OP's post about Ash becoming some bisexual tramp, that isn't true. Ash's character was never stated to be solely straight. In fact according to Bioware there was supposed to be more than just Liara for s/s romance in ME1 but got cut due to time constraints. As for characters supposedly straight for ME2, those dialogue's and romance options were cut because Casey Hudson deemed it so. No other reason other than he could do it and tick off the fans. Just for comparison.

Therefore anyone saying that Ash is 'straight' is deluding themselves.

End of Line.

Or, you know, there aren't any bisexual squadies shown in ME or ME2...  OH NO NOT THAT!

[Siansonea]

LeVaughnX wrote...

Heather Cline wrote...

My opinion of how Ash and Kaidan are acting in ME2 is that they were retconned. Because if any of your interaction with the squad members from ME1 had ported over the conversation would have been a lot different.

As for the OP's post about Ash becoming some bisexual tramp, that isn't true. Ash's character was never stated to be solely straight. In fact according to Bioware there was supposed to be more than just Liara for s/s romance in ME1 but got cut due to time constraints. As for characters supposedly straight for ME2, those dialogue's and romance options were cut because Casey Hudson deemed it so. No other reason other than he could do it and tick off the fans. Just for comparison.

Therefore anyone saying that Ash is 'straight' is deluding themselves.

End of Line.

Content Cut or Content Not Added - either way breaking the lore now by throwing it in would still be doing just that; breaking the established lore.

Normally I don't reply to posts of that nature anymore (the same/sex romancers are getting out of hand in my mind - especially Issac) but you seem slightly more civil than the majority of them so I felt like posting is safer here; until Issac randomly busts in with his "Homophobic from Hell" speech...

Ah yes, "breaking the lore". Funny how that's the mantra. If anything, bisexual Ashley and bisexual Kaidan might "bruise" the lore, and that's about it. But let's look at some actual lore-breaking and logic-defying stuff: Let's look at a giant baby Reaper that drinks Puree O' Humans smoothies, regardless of the scientifically nonsensical nature of such a thing, and the vast stupidity of a Human Reaper in the first place. Let's look at the Lazarus Project, a miraculous technological marvel, with ONE subject (how did they test it?) that somehow restores the delicate neural connections in Shepard's dead, asphyxiated, FROZEN brain—and then ceases to matter altogether. And no one cares that the secret to life and death has been unlocked. No one cares about using that technology again. No one questions Shepard about the afterlife. Or ANYTHING related to being dead. And how did Shepard's body survive plummeting through Alchera's atmosphere, anyway? Thermal clips, a new innovation! How were they on the Hugo Gernsback, which has been marooned on Aeia for over a decade? 

But yeah, the idea that Kaidan and Ashley *might* be bisexual, that's where we're fighting the good fight for lore consistency. Right. It's all about the lore. 

Modifié par Siansonea II, 06 octobre 2011 - 07:46 .

[Xilizhra]

Well, Shepard does mention that the last thing she remembers is the Normandy explosion, so it can be safely concluded that she doesn't have any experiences of an afterlife.

[Siansonea]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, Shepard does mention that the last thing she remembers is the Normandy explosion, so it can be safely concluded that she doesn't have any experiences of an afterlife.

Oh. 

Except, you know, Shepard doesn't say that to everyone. How come Liara didn't ask Shepard what it was like? Or Samara? She clearly reveres the asari Goddess, it's likely that she thinks about spiritual matters a good deal, and would take the unique opportunity to talk to someone who has been deader than dead and lived to tell the tale. Or Mordin, who is approaching the end of his own life. Or Thane, who is spiritual AND approaching the end of his own life. NOBODY asks "hey, what was it like being dead, Shepard?" Nobody.

Why? Because it's preposterous to believe that Cerberus' tale of death and resurrection is on the up and up. It's CERBERUS. They're a bunch of lying manipulators. More likely is that Shepard was near death when Cerberus found him/her, and spent the two years nursing Shepard back to health while keeping Shepard in an induced coma. That's what I'd believe, if somebody told me that kill-happy Cerberus suddenly had a change of heart, developed resurrection technology, and decided to use it only once—on an avowed ENEMY of Cerberus. An enemy who seems to go along with everything Cerberus says after he/she is brought back to life. Hmmmmm. Control chip, anyone? I know Miranda said there wasn't one, but really, does anyone think Miranda tells the whole truth if she can possibly avoid it?

Modifié par Siansonea II, 06 octobre 2011 - 07:55 .

[Heather Cline]

Siansonea II has a point. She/He has hit the nail on the head. There is a lot of lore breaking in ME2. How does Shepard know about thermal clips when he/she wakes up? Thermal clips were invented after Shepard died. That's another lore breaker right there. Also the reason for the thermal clips is completely bogus. Because in ME1 when you get frictionless materials by the end of the game thermal clips would become obsolete compared to frictionless materials. Again another lore breaker is the retcon they did for thermal clips.

Then there is the fact that Shepard doesn't tell TIM off the first time he/she meets him. Doesn't break ties with TIM the first time he sets her/him up on Horizon. There are so many lore breaks in ME2 it's not funny. So complaining about lore breaking in ME3 is bogus.

So yeah... all about the lore. Give me a break.

Modifié par Heather Cline, 06 octobre 2011 - 08:01 .

[Iakus]

CptData wrote...

Na. Never would say "Ashley / Kaidan is mean and insane and sh*t" just because of Horizon.

All I was complaining was how BW dealt with that reunion. Either it was bad writing (Shepard doesn't seem to be able to defend himself - where is Mr. Suave ?!) or most planned content was cut before release - and no one reviewed the scene if everything is working like it should.

To make things clear: if the VS was your LI in ME, you'll get a message in which your LI explains why he/she reacted as he/she did. That's fine for me. Without that message the meeting would have ended as some kind of "break up", Shepard also reacts like someone who just get dumped by his lover. That message is a try to go to the point "our relationship might continue once this is over" so it's the player's decision if you wants to continue that relationship in ME3 or not.

I love Ashley and I like Kaidan (good enough - he's not top on my fav list) and they're important characters I like and care for. They're not less interesting as Wrex or Tali or Garrus just because they're no aliens. And I'm looking forward to ME3 so I can experience the (hopefully well developed) story arc revolving around the VS.

I'm inclined to agree.

That scene on Horizon begged for a second meeting.  Like meeting Tali at Freedom's Progress and again on Haestrom.  I suspect that if the VS apology was delivered in person rather than as a cheap email, a lot of hard feelings could have been avoided.  A lot of hard feelings, since then people who didn't romance them might have gotten an apology too.

[PrinceLionheart]

DoNotIngest wrote...

Bah, you people expect me to read long posts. This thread has outlved its usefulness.

In other words, you're tired of getting proven wrong so you're going to abandon your own thread.

[Iakus]

Siansonea II wrote...

Obligatory listing of Cerberus' atrocities (that the VS is aware of):

Akuze: Responsible for the deaths of scores of Alliance Marines, experimented on Alliance Marine Corporal Toombs to test the effects of thresher maw acid without his consent, essentially torturing him.
Edolus: Responsible for the deaths of scores of Alliance Marines, due to a trap that lured them to a thresher maw nest.
Binthu: Performed experiments on living creatures, including rachni, and killed Alliance Admiral Kahoku. KILLED an ALLIANCE ADMIRAL.
Argos Rho Cluster/Styx Theta cluster: Responsible for the proliferation of insane rachni on Nepmos and Altahe, resulting in the deaths of many Alliance Marines.

As a high level operative, Kaidan and Ashley may also know about Cerberus' role in attempting to kidnap Gillian Grayson from the Migrant Fleet, as well as Cerberus' role in attempting to experiment on Gillian (depending on how much was revealed to the Alliance by Kahlee Sanders).

So yeah, Cerberus isn't just some wacky group of misfits, vandalizing Alliance ships and putting "kick me" signs on Alliance soldiers. When Kaidan and Ashley say that Shepard is betraying everything they stood for by working with Cerberus, it is a TRUE statement. Cerberus represents everything that is wrong with humanity, and a loyal Alliance Marine would NEVER work with people like that. But some people don't seem to think murder, torture, kidnapping, and vivisection are all that bad. "The ends justify the means" and all that. And all I can say is, I hope someday you're on the receiving end of that double-edged sword. Maybe you'll change your tune.

For myself, I don't blame the VS at all for being suspicious, even hostile to Cerberus, to the point of thinking Cerberus was involved with th ecolony disappearances.  The problem I have is that my (paragon) Shepard was with the VS when they learned about most of those Cerberus operations.  And thoroughly trashed them as well.  The VS should know, then, that Shepard would not join forces with them for s&gs.  And Bioware suddenly assumes direct control to keep Shep from expressing the reasoning behind it.  Or presenting evidence.  Seriously, Conrad Verner could have handled that talk better.

[General Ferdinand Foch]

For what its worth, which probably aint much, I was taken back on the meeting with VS. (my impression during first play though ). I expected her to be mad, sad, etc but once you tell her you have been unconscious/dead for two years I thought she would have reacted differently. However everyone reacts differently so I cant really expect her to react the way I would now can i? also many people don’t react well to highly emotional situations and say and do things that even they might not consider rational after the fact. I have a hard time believing she would have called him a traitor though.
So I came to the conclusion its just bad writing. I know BW wanted to split the VS from the Normandy crew or they would not have concluded the scene the way they did. After reading this thread though someone (and I don’t remember who sorry…. Really I like to give credit where due) brought up the fact that the VS is still in the Alliance military and cant join Shep because he is not (anymore). I would have liked it if they had used this reason instead, but then those who romanced Ash might not have been tempted to move on during the ME2.
Now many of you seem to know more about ME3 than I do so sorry if I’m lame but what if BW set this scene up the way they did because they wanted shep to be P1ssed and to move on so during ME3 could have a real dilemma of patching things up with the SV, keeping the romance you have, or perhaps moving on to someone else? I mean ME2 is clearly just a bridge between 1 and 3 since its story line is not nearly as developed as 1 and hopefully 3. If true, it still makes the issue divisive (in my mind) and that’s just not good story telling. On the other hand BW did a pretty good job with the depth of this story that I can’t really ask them to be perfect. Well I can but it’s not really fair.
As for who is the better friend? I don’t think anyone can make a case that one character is better than another. Since every shep is played by a different person and perception is subjective the better friend is how your shep feels about that person at the time you are playing that game. I don’t know about you guys but for me its different each time I play.

[Iakus]

Siansonea II wrote...

Why? Because it's preposterous to believe that Cerberus' tale of death and resurrection is on the up and up. It's CERBERUS. They're a bunch of lying manipulators. More likely is that Shepard was near death when Cerberus found him/her, and spent the two years nursing Shepard back to health while keeping Shepard in an induced coma. That's what I'd believe, if somebody told me that kill-happy Cerberus suddenly had a change of heart, developed resurrection technology, and decided to use it only once—on an avowed ENEMY of Cerberus. An enemy who seems to go along with everything Cerberus says after he/she is brought back to life. Hmmmmm. Control chip, anyone? I know Miranda said there wasn't one, but really, does anyone think Miranda tells the whole truth if she can possibly avoid it?

While I doubt this is actually going to turn out to be true.  I would absolutely love it if it did.

[Nerevar-as]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

I don't blame the VS too much for their reaction. After all, if you expect everyone to be as loyal as Tali and Garrus, you're setting yourself up for a major disappointment.

It´s not so much G&T as Joker and Chakwas, who probably just heard "we´ll bring Shepard back" and asked where to sign. But if the goal was to make me angry at the VS, then they should have written the encounter better. All I could think after Horizon was how bad the scene had been.  So no moving to a ME2 LI for the Shepard who had romanced Ash. I´m really surprised the scene "worked" in that sense for so many players, and the same with Liara (who at least got LotSB to fix things).

[DoNotIngest]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

DoNotIngest wrote...

Bah, you people expect me to read long posts. This thread has outlved its usefulness.

In other words, you're tired of getting proven wrong so you're going to abandon your own thread.

What? No, it's just easier to be in a Trollwar when the posts are short. If I want to read walls of text, I'll go to FF.net.



And I wasn't aware I'd inherited this thread. Did anything else come with it?

[MisterJB]

Siansonea II wrote...
When Kaidan and Ashley say that Shepard is betraying everything they stood for by working with Cerberus, it is a TRUE statement. Cerberus represents everything that is wrong with humanity,

That is your opinion and you have all the right to it.
However, there are other people who think diferently and we have the right to be insulted when the VS acuses Shepard of betraying everything he stood for.
Had the VS just said that Shepard was a traitor to the Alliance and I couldn't have cared less.