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[AdmiralCheez]

Okay, here comes my weird and creepy sleep-deprived wall of text of the week.

I was doing a little reflecting earlier about how I'm paragon like 75% of the time and no one ever dies in the Suicide Mission.  I asked myself, "Why the hell do I keep doing this?  It's unrealistic and stupid to save the galaxy by being a nice person, and coming out of a mission like that unscathed borders on ridiculous."

And then I realized, hey, it's because it's unrealistic that I do it in the first place.

Spoiler alert: Real life sucks.  Every day, we have to face how powerless we are, how often we screw up, how bad things will keep happening to good people no matter how hard we try to stop it.  Sure, we can contribute our hearts and souls to good causes, work until our backs break to make things better, and offer all the help and comfort to the ones we love, but ultimately, the happy endings don't last.  The bad guys stay in power, the good guys get shoved to the wayside, and we retreat into our religions and philosophies to try to make sense of it all and make it hurt less.  Pessimistic, I know.  I do try hard (and should try harder), but really, I can't get over how insignificant I am in the grand scheme of things.

So then this game comes along.  It has cool aliens, good voice acting, and you get to shoot people.  Awesome, sign me up.  But then when I played it a certain way, I couldn't help but feel a little better about myself.

Basically, Mass Effect (2) offers an elaborate fantasy in which the player has the power to save the world in his or her own way.  It gave me a mature, deep, and (despite the sci-fi thing) incredibly realistic environment in which I could take those kindergarten morals I'd never quite let go of and put them in the hands of an unstoppable and charismatic space marine.

Sure, I can't stop genocide or corporate corruption.  I can't intervene when a close friend is about to get seriously hurt.  I can't fight wars or sway entire populations or protect the innocent.  But Shepard can.

And even though it's all just pretend, I can't help but think the experience has been a little therapeutic.

I know it's silly to think I can have sunshine and bunnies in the face of a galactic apocalypse, but I want 'em anyway.  I want to keep playing pretend, to screw the rules and do the impossible, to protect the people I care about in a way I can't protect them in real life.

So if the fine folks at Bioware have squeezed in one little possible endgame scenario in which the crew makes it out alive again and I don't have to basically murder my space-BFFs to win, even if there's like a 10% chance of getting that ending, I'd be eternally grateful.  Too late to really impact the story at this point, sure, but if the tweets are to be believed, I'm going to spend half the game sobbing anyway, so is wanting to watch the credits roll with a stupid, satisfied grin on my face too much to ask?

Because that's one of the reasons I keep playing these games: Shepard is the hero I wished I could be back in kindergarten, and both the kid and the adult in me would like to see hundreds of hours and dollars conclude with a happy ending.  Granted, I'll get over it if it doesn't, but still, I'm more likely to play it again if it makes me feel good when I'm done, right?

And if you think this rant is weird, blame Bioware for making a game good enough for me to care this much.  It's hard to get people to care this much about the fate of a few lumps of programming with voices attached.  What strange voodoo are you crazy bastards practicing, anyway?  I'll bet you can make a god damn plastic bottle that people would get emotionally attached to, sheesh...

Also, I'm a selfish, socially reclusive crybaby in desperate need of therapy.  That could also attribute to any and all WTF-ness of this thread.

OVER TO YOU, MY LOVELIES: What weird, childish fantasies has Mass fulfilled for you, if any?  Do you think happy endings and No One Left Behinds belong in a game like ME3?  If not, why?  Would you accept that sort of thing if it was optional/difficult to achieve?  How do you want to feel when the credits roll?

EDIT: Bolded the point of the thread since some people think I want to avoid every single dark and gloomy aspect of a war story altogether.  Nope, just no completely forced squad deaths.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 07 octobre 2011 - 07:06 .

[111987]

Just an FYI, but even 100% Renegades can save their entire squad in the Suicide Mission.

But I agree. The world is a dark, unfair place. There are going to be massive casualties. But I hope that it would be possible to save as many of the 'characters with a name' that we can; people like squadmates, Anderson/Udina, Shiala, Gianna Parasini, etc...

[Bogsnot1]

One fantasy that Bioware has fulfilled for many people through the ME series is the Captain Kirk Fantasy. Bangin' the Blue Babes.

[staindgrey]

I'm actually kind of hoping for the opposite...

Despite the grief DA2 got, I prefer its take on what a "champion" can do. Hawke basically gets screwed around every corner-- sometimes it's almost painful just how little effect you have on what happens-- but it feels all the more realistic to me. And I like that. I can't just look up a guide and save everybody.

I'm hoping that ME3 incorporates at least enough death to make the Reaper threat seem very, very real. They're supposed to be galactic extinctionists; I want that to be painfully obvious, especially if they're starting with Earth alone. Saving too many people would make me think, "Really? That's it? Sovereign was blowing smoke out his ass. Overrated."

[AdmiralCheez]

111987 wrote...

Just an FYI, but even 100% Renegades can save their entire squad in the Suicide Mission.

There's a little fantasy fulfillment in that, too: Be a complete dick and still be the hero.  Punch and shoot everyone that deserves it, tell those in power to suck it, and do what you think is right without having to worry about other people's judgment of your behavior.  Renegade is damn fun, but I'm a cupcake by nature, so I, uh, make nice most of the time.

A loud, angry, vulgar cupcake.  Yep.

Anyway, invalidating the renegade would be just as bad as invalidating the paragon.  Both should be able to "win."

But I agree. The world is a dark, unfair place. There are going to be massive casualties. But I hope that it would be possible to save as many of the 'characters with a name' that we can; people like squadmates, Anderson/Udina, Shiala, Gianna Parasini, etc...

Glad you feel that way.

[Travie]

Wow, I never thought about it that way OP.

[ElitePinecone]

Agree - I would prefer the power to save everybody, rescue the galaxy, ensure nobody dies and ride off into the metaphorical sunset.

Death can be tremendously powerful drama - just look at how sombre ME2's suicide mission casualties were, or the 'death-as-redemption' path for Loghain in DAO, or 'death-as-duty' for Kaidan/Ashley on Virire or the Warden - but at the same time I'd feel absolutely awful if any of the major squadmates, let alone Shepard, were sacrificed in the course of saving the galaxy.

[AdmiralCheez]

staindgrey wrote...

I'm hoping that ME3 incorporates at least enough death to make the Reaper threat seem very, very real. They're supposed to be galactic extinctionists; I want that to be painfully obvious, especially if they're starting with Earth alone. Saving too many people would make me think, "Really? That's it? Sovereign was blowing smoke out his ass. Overrated."

Oh, I want to feel the gravity of the situation, too.  Just with one caveat: Plot deaths of squadmates can kiss my ass.

There are tons of other ways to make the world feel like it's ending.  Killing the cool guy is just the easiest, and Hollywood's beaten me over the head with it so many times that I need a break.

[J. Finley]

Pretty much sums up my life. I could do all kinds of things in Mass Effect I couldn't dream of in real life, might as well throw happiness in there as well. I'm a pure escapist, always pretending to be the main character in my favorite shows and such, they always have it better. It would be nice to experience a smile after all the time we invested in this story.

Modifié par Jayman1337, 07 octobre 2011 - 06:03 .

[staindgrey]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

staindgrey wrote...

I'm hoping that ME3 incorporates at least enough death to make the Reaper threat seem very, very real. They're supposed to be galactic extinctionists; I want that to be painfully obvious, especially if they're starting with Earth alone. Saving too many people would make me think, "Really? That's it? Sovereign was blowing smoke out his ass. Overrated."

Oh, I want to feel the gravity of the situation, too.  Just with one caveat: Plot deaths of squadmates can kiss my ass.

There are tons of other ways to make the world feel like it's ending.  Killing the cool guy is just the easiest, and Hollywood's beaten me over the head with it so many times that I need a break.

I can understand that point. I can definitely understand it after the horribly forced death of Dom in Gears 3. That scene still makes me rage.

But at the same time, I dislike how I can save every other squadmate in Gears 3, which again, just seems unrealistic. Not that Gears is anywhere near ME's story telling, but still. I have enough games where I'm Mr. Badass and everybody's okay in the end. I'd like to think Bioware can effectively portray death in a sensible, un-Hollywood-ish manner, one that carries weight but doesn't force us into losing one of our favorite characters without a choice.

I mean, look at the Ash/Kaiden scenario. I hated Kaiden and still that took me awhile to choose on my first playthough. Even my second and third made me hesitate, as if I were really deciding someone's fate. That was well done on Bioware's part.

[Boceephus]

I'm with you OP.

They can kill off Vega if they want to make it known "the stakes have never been higher!" but I deal with enough depressing crap and failure in my life, I don't need it in a game. Bring on the happy endings.

[Almostfaceman]

Well this is why Star Wars* kicks arse - because the little guy ends up beating the odds and kicking the powerful bad guy square in the bawls - in space.

Mass Effect shamelessly feeds into this fantasy so many of us have. I happily engage in it. I need this outlet. I want to be the hero who takes the high road even when it gets tough. I want to save my friends. I want to save the universe. I want to be a really nice guy and help people. I want to shoot things with lasers. I want to travel faster than light. I want to have Vulcan mind-meld sex.

I want to be a space cowboy.

Thanks Bioware for making it happen.

*All Almostfaceman posts mentioning Star Wars automatically and effortlessly do not include the Prequels. Patent pending.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Bogsnot1 wrote...
One fantasy that Bioware has fulfilled for many people through the ME series is the Captain Kirk Fantasy. Bangin' the Blue Babes.

Honestly, who didn't want to be Captain Kirk when they were younger? It beats the jobs most of us have.

Anyway, I do have a few saves where everybody lives in ME2. It's simply cool to be the badass marine who fights against seemingly-impossible odds, always gets the girl, and knows when to say a good one-liner. Yet even a badass hero can't have everything go his way. This should go beyond just deaths as well. So I have a few saves where I lost squad-members on the suicide mission and intend to eventually play through those. Overall though, it was way too easy to have everybody survive ME2.

If it's even a possibility to have everybody survive ME3, it should be much harder. Yet in the end, I would be fine if some squad-members are destined to get killed, in fact I think I may prefer that. Sure I'll be saddened if I like the character, but it's the sign of a good game that can mess with your emotions like that.

Modifié par ReconTeam, 07 octobre 2011 - 06:14 .

[111987]

staindgrey wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

staindgrey wrote...

I'm hoping that ME3 incorporates at least enough death to make the Reaper threat seem very, very real. They're supposed to be galactic extinctionists; I want that to be painfully obvious, especially if they're starting with Earth alone. Saving too many people would make me think, "Really? That's it? Sovereign was blowing smoke out his ass. Overrated."

Oh, I want to feel the gravity of the situation, too.  Just with one caveat: Plot deaths of squadmates can kiss my ass.

There are tons of other ways to make the world feel like it's ending.  Killing the cool guy is just the easiest, and Hollywood's beaten me over the head with it so many times that I need a break.

I can understand that point. I can definitely understand it after the horribly forced death of Dom in Gears 3. That scene still makes me rage.

But at the same time, I dislike how I can save every other squadmate in Gears 3, which again, just seems unrealistic. Not that Gears is anywhere near ME's story telling, but still. I have enough games where I'm Mr. Badass and everybody's okay in the end. I'd like to think Bioware can effectively portray death in a sensible, un-Hollywood-ish manner, one that carries weight but doesn't force us into losing one of our favorite characters without a choice.

I mean, look at the Ash/Kaiden scenario. I hated Kaiden and still that took me awhile to choose on my first playthough. Even my second and third made me hesitate, as if I were really deciding someone's fate. That was well done on Bioware's part.

You don't think the Virmire situation was Hollywood-like at all? It flowed well with the narrative and wasn't forced, but to me at least it seemed like something I'd see in a movie.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Do you think happy endings and No One Left Behinds belong in a game like ME3?  If not, why?

No. ME3 is apparently all about sacrifice on a galactic scale, but I also feel it should be on a personal level. It is a brutal war and there will loses on all scales, from entire cities to our dearest friend.

Would you accept that sort of thing if it was optional/difficult to achieve? 

No. The sheer excistence of such an ending compromises the credibility of the opposing force.

How do you want to feel when the credits roll?

A sense of closure and and triumf in face of the impossible, preferbly with a bittersweet tone.

[AdmiralCheez]

staindgrey wrote...

*good stuff, but I'm snipping it for brevity*

I mean, look at the Ash/Kaiden scenario. I hated Kaiden and still that took me awhile to choose on my first playthough. Even my second and third made me hesitate, as if I were really deciding someone's fate. That was well done on Bioware's part.

I was actually okay with that, since it didn't totally rip control out of the player's hands.

What would suck is if you chose to save Kaidan, but he died anyway two games later.  It's like, seriously, what's the point?

[Undertone]

I've argued about this extensively. The world maybe a dark place but I find it to my liking. There's a thought in my language that would be sort of translated as "when you bask in the darkness, even the slightest shimmer of light becomes visible".

You can argue that it's just a game and games are sort of there to entertain and other typical arguments. And I would agree with you considering even my gaming has some sort of escapism to it besides everything else that gaming gives me.

But there has to be a challenge, there has to be something sacrificed. I'm not against good ending, I'm not against a happy ending. But saving everyone from your crew or NPC's will be immersion braking and impossible. It's a war and it would absolutely cheapen the experience and make winning it worthless if there aren't sacrifices to be made.

The Suicide Mission was disappointing for me. I expected it to be extremely hard, I expected to lose someone. That's why I talked with Garrus every chance I got because I figured when it's all said and done we might not see each other again. I ended up cruising through the mission asking myself - "Seriously, is that it? Was it this easy? How can this be a suicide mission, when absolutely everyone made it?" To me it felt like one of those cheap movies where the four protagonists are killing 1230123012 henchmen that come out of everywhere but somehow always miss yet the protagonist can oneshot them or survive seemingly incredible amount of damage or have ridiculous accuracy.

I want squad mates deaths - I don't care in what shape or form, through choice of player or plot death but I want them. Preferably a mix of two - after all Shepard isn't a god and can't control every variable. It would be stupid if all deaths are player choice and again cheapening the experience. Oh hey "Tali or Jacob" - I love Tali, lets feed Jacob to do the wolfs. -.-

I also don't want to play like a retard to lose people.

Modifié par Undertone, 07 octobre 2011 - 06:21 .

[jeweledleah]

Virmire situation made me rage at the stupidity of it all. here I am with3 extra squadmates doing... what exactly? and I cannot send them along to help? I'm with CHeez on this. I want a possibility of my little fantasy where I CAN make a difference where I CAN save everything and get an awesome happy ending. I want realism enough to make me immersed and to car for the npc's that I'm saving, fighting alongside of,but I want it to have a certain sence of optimism, of hope.

I have saves where I lost squadmates in suicide mission. I have brutal saves where almost everyone that could die - died. but I have them becasue I have a choice. I'm not forced into losing these people I have a way of saving them.

the only emotion that forced, unavoidable squadmate deaths will cause in me, really, is a strong desire to fling my game disc against the nearest wall and never pay full price for another bioware game ever again (and forget pre-ordering >_> ) make it hard - fine. just don't make it impossible.

[AdmiralCheez]

Lizardviking wrote...

No. The sheer excistence of such an ending compromises the credibility of the opposing force.

Does the sheer existence of FemShep invalidate BroShep's penis?  Does renegade working just as well invalidate playing paragon?  Does keeping six or seven specific people alive invalidate the billions that have perished?

[Aggie Punbot]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

The thing is, it can do that, but it can also make it feel cheap, very cheap, if no one near you dies.

I completely and utterly disagree with this. Players should be able to earn their happy ending should they so choose.

AdmiralCheez, I salute you for making this thread. You've expressed my feelings on the matter so much more eloquently and with a lot more grance and panache than I ever could have hoped to.

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 07 octobre 2011 - 06:22 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Undertone wrote...

I also don't want to play like a retard to lose people.

So would you be okay with a zero squad death ending if it were basically impossible to achieve without an incredible attention to detail and sacrifices made in other areas?

[Undertone]

jeweledleah wrote...

Virmire situation made me rage at the stupidity of it all. here I am with3 extra squadmates doing... what exactly? and I cannot send them along to help? I'm with CHeez on this. I want a possibility of my little fantasy where I CAN make a difference where I CAN save everything and get an awesome happy ending. I want realism enough to make me immersed and to car for the npc's that I'm saving, fighting alongside of,but I want it to have a certain sence of optimism, of hope.

I have saves where I lost squadmates in suicide mission. I have brutal saves where almost everyone that could die - died. but I have them becasue I have a choice. I'm not forced into losing these people I have a way of saving them.

the only emotion that forced, unavoidable squadmate deaths will cause in me, really, is a strong desire to fling my game disc against the nearest wall and never pay full price for another bioware game ever again (and forget pre-ordering >_> ) make it hard - fine. just don't make it impossible.

Virmire was presented weak, I concur. But it was necessary. Shepard isn't a god as I said and not a single commander can predict every variable, every strategy the enemy will use and so on. To have everyone from your crew survive is absolutely immersion braking and will make the Reaper invasion like a joke. 

It's exactly because I'm not forced - why should I play like a retard to lose people, why should *I* be adding drama in my game? Even squad mates I absolutely hate - why make a choice to send them to die when they can be useful. That makes no sense and is pure metagaming. 

[AdmiralCheez]

Undertone wrote...

To have everyone from your crew survive is absolutely immersion braking and will make the Reaper invasion like a joke.

Shepard came back from the dead.  There is a race of beautiful blue pansexual babes.

What immersion?