4309 réponses à ce sujet

[TheRevanchist]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

kylecouch wrote...
 their is nothing that makes Garrus more special then any other Turian. Their is nothing special about Garrus dieing then any other Turian dieing, because eaither way a Turian is dead...there is no difference.

What? Next you'll be telling me that Tali isn't any more special than other quarians, or Liara than other asari, or Shepard than other humans. All of which is ridiculous, of course.

Really? cuz they are...each and every one of them. Shepard is just another human who took N7 training. Tali is just another Quarian who just happens to be just a little smarter then other Quarians. Liara is just another Asari who knows alot about Protheans...and everything else at this point. Liara might be the exception. But regardless the others are nothing special.

Yeah, because saving the galaxy twice doesn't make them special. And are you seriously telling me that you would be no more sad if Garrus died than if, say, General Septimus did? Or the Presidium Groundskeeper? Or Random Turian Civilian #142?

Thats exactly what I'm telling you, because his life is no more valuable then Septimus or random Turian Civilian #142. His soul and life is not inheirently more worth saving just because you know him better. In fact I would probably sacrifice Garrus to save Septimus if I thought he could help...given the fact hes a General and all.

[crimzontearz]

oh come on I was a talimancer too................until of course LOTSB fixed the ugly Liara's writing that was shoved down our throats in the vanilla ME2.

I was ALSO the original creator of the "tali-pounce" or "quarian-pounce" term


also......the use of musinc during Dom's death scene was awesome

[Il Divo]

kylecouch wrote...

If I got to know that child personally...I would not feel anything extra...period. I feel for him because he represents the masses and they have embraced hopelessness and despire. It has nothing to do with him personally...its what he reprsents that has meaning. I only vote for single people at a time to represent them only because in a video game its too expenseive to do otherwise. in books however thats a different story entierly...and the child would not cut it because the masses can be better represented.

Garrus's death would hold no special meaning to me at all...and hes one of the few companions I actually LIKE. He knew the risks, and died for the cause, his death to me would be no different then any other Turian doing the same thing. instead I would probably say "You were a damn good friend Garrus, you death helps the cause." or something, the point is if he dies I'm not going to cry and sob about it. Therefor the whole point of his death is wasted for me.

Then, quite simply, I have never in my life met a human being quite like you. And I think this is where our discussion must come to an end.

Modifié par Il Divo, 17 octobre 2011 - 03:10 .

[TheRevanchist]

Except I'm a Tali fan...and have taken no offense.

[AdmiralCheez]

I think this is my first thread to ever reach over 100 pages.

Time for a celebratory drink.

[Il Divo]

crimzontearz wrote...

oh come on I was a talimancer too................until of course LOTSB fixed the ugly Liara's writing that was shoved down our throats in the vanilla ME2.

I was ALSO the original creator of the "tali-pounce" or "quarian-pounce" term

also......the use of musinc during Dom's death scene was awesome

So not only were you a former tali-mancer, but you gave her up? I am impressed. But I support you. I feel like Liara's biotics could make things alot more interesting than Tali's...tech gear.


And yeah, Mad World was a damn great choice to use during that scene.

[jeweledleah]

Il Divo wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

except to me, knowing that no matter what I do it will result in squadmate death?  that removes the tension.  you know what keeps me tense every single time?  set up like Bring down the sky.  I never really know what I'm going to do untill that moment of truth.  save Kate Bowman and let criminal go?  or don't let him escape and sign her death warrant?

And that's always contingent upon how much you enjoy any character. That all comes down to implementation. If I really hate Kate Bowman, the difficulty of that decision is diminished. That easily removes tension, in my opinion. Where as, whenever I re-engage in any narrative, I'm always (to some degree) echoing my reactions my first time through, even though it's not as strong. Kaidan/Ashley will always have a degree of tension, because I remember the first time it happened. I find the same thing happens with Quentin Tarantino films with respect to the tension in the atmosphere. It's really not an easy skill to pull off.

here's another example of a decision that keeps me tense even now - rewrite the geth, or kill them?  rewriting, brainwashing - its not exactly a nice thing to do.  and there's always danger of them going bad again.  but destroying them could mean weaker alliesdown the road.  and who am Ito decide to take so many lives.

Ethical dilemmas are always fun to toy with.

Virmire?  virmire has degenerated into - whichcharacter am I keeping alive this time.  i know one of them will die, there is no tension.  only annoyance.

And aside from the ethical aspect, I don't see the difference here. The tension is choosing who has to die. The only issue I can think of lies in that if you have a clear preference for one character over the other, it might make that decision more clear. It still doesn't leave me hopping with joy that I had to leave a man behind.

mandatory squadmate deaths will STILl come down to how much you enjoy the characters.  for many many people virmire is not much of a choice from the start.  for quite a few it was - OMG, I get to kill off the character I don't like and there's no way for them to come back?  SWEET!  there will always be people that aren't affected by difficult choice, because for them, those choices are not difficult.  and making squadmate deaths mandatory - will not change that.

I haven't felt any tension on virmire ever since I realized that there really is nothing I can do and killed each one of them once.  even though I like them both. and the way that run is set up is that there's very little forshadowing (some, but not THAT much) and the game tricks you into thinking that you can actualy get everyone out alive.  and then the choice is sprung at you at the very last moment and you can only go "what the hell just happened?"  its very similar to Wash dying in Serenity.  or Ballard dying in Doll House. utterly pointless and done purely for the dramaz.

the first time you play the game and you THINK you might lose someone?  there's plenty of tension there.  even if you manage to save them in the end?  that journey to getting them out - THAT's tension.  Garrus's recruitement mission.  still gives me adrenaline rush.  even though I knowhe will come out alive, the entire mission was wrought with danger and urgency, and when that rocket hits him?  holy hell....and then happiness and relief when he comes through that door. now THAT was great.

[crimzontearz]

Il Divo wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

oh come on I was a talimancer too................until of course LOTSB fixed the ugly Liara's writing that was shoved down our throats in the vanilla ME2.

I was ALSO the original creator of the "tali-pounce" or "quarian-pounce" term

also......the use of musinc during Dom's death scene was awesome

So not only were you a former tali-mancer, but you gave her up? I am impressed. But I support you. I feel like Liara's biotics could make things alot more interesting than Tali's...tech gear.


And yeah, Mad World was a damn great choice to use during that scene.

I only romanced her because The disgraceful writing that I was slapped with by Liara on Ilium before LotSB

it reeked of "yeah Shepard, I know you could very well die but I am still not coming with you...my revenge and Feron are more important no matter what you say". After Lair of the Shadow Broker it was all more acceptable

[crimzontearz]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

oh come on I was a talimancer too................until of course LOTSB fixed the ugly Liara's writing that was shoved down our throats in the vanilla ME2.

There's nothing stopping you from liking both Tali and Liara, you know. I certainly enjoyed both romances (in separate playthroughs of course).

oh I like Tali..but given the choice between one or the other I'll pick Liara (unless of course the threesome option appears in ME3......at which point I'll be 100% happy having both!)

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

And respectfully, I think this is the problem with Bioware's presentation on squad-mates. In most Bioware games, squad-mates play second fiddle to your PC, which tends to limit the roles they have in the main narrative, with exceptions of course.

Well they did base an entire game around meeting many of them 

But the problem with these scenarios, where no squad mate death is mandatory, appears because it removes dramatic tension. If no party member dies unless I (as the player) choose for them to die, there's no reason for me to worry about my squad-mates. His ability to live is contingent upon my decision to kill him, that's all. It doesn't mean that Bioware has to kill squad-mates, but knowing that they refuse to do so is a limitation.

And there are potential scenarios for a squad-mate death which is not reliant upon Shepard.

I'd argue that it could add dramatic tension.  Not in a "Find Wrex's armor and he's your buddy for life" way.  But in a "Can I justify saving them?" way.  Perhaps saving your favorite squadmates makes getting the "optimal ending" harder.  Or even impossible.  But then, for some, any ending where your favorite characters live is an optimal ending.  I'd even say it would add replayability.  Saving Garrus means abandoning a sabotage mission on a Reaper?  okay, let's see what happens in we leave him to die and destroy the Reaper instead.  Might make all the difference in a battle later on.

This is actually my problem with LIs is the sense of attachment people have to their love-interests to the point where their roles in the narrative are limited. It leads us to a scenario where they must all get equal treatment. You can't kill character X because character X is a love interest and fans will be angry if character X dies but character Y, who is also a love interest, survives. It doesn't matter that in ME2 someone chose to romance Thane, knowing full well what his condition was, some fans think that he needs to be treated equally with other LIs.

Not saying this is a good or a bad thing.  It just is.  If a LI has to die and doesn't get a massively spectacular send-off, there will be rage.  Even then, there'd be rage.  Just less rage.

Modifié par iakus, 17 octobre 2011 - 03:22 .

[Iakus]

jeweledleah wrote...

see Kate Bowman doesn't have to die.  her death is completely avoidable.  but is the consequence of saving her worth it?  you decide.

That's exactly the kind of thing I'm thinking of.  Imagine other scenerios like that, but with Miranda, Liara, Garrus, etc.  

Only, with actual consequences later one;)

Other choices liike this:  the rachni queen, the Council, David in Project Overlord,  Choices made regarding other which choosing to help them might or might not come back to bite you later.  Now replace them with squadmates.  What are you willing to do, who are you willing to sacrifice, to save the galaxy?

[AdmiralCheez]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

*clap clap clap*

Good job, Cheez.

Y thank u!

Although I'm a little worried about what you guys may have done to it in my absence...

Maybe it's better I don't know.

*glances at last 20 pages*

YEP.



K BYE.

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...


I'd argue that it could add dramatic tension.  Not in a "Find Wrex's armor and he's your buddy for life" way.  But in a "Can I justify saving them?" way.  Perhaps saving your favorite squadmates makes getting the "optimal ending" harder.  Or even impossible.  But then, for some, any ending where your favorite characters live is an optimal ending.  I'd even say it would add replayability.  Saving Garrus means abandoning a sabotage mission on a Reaper?  okay, let's see what happens in we leave him to die and destroy the Reaper instead.  Might make all the difference in a battle later on.

But that's the problem here; potentiality and actuality are two different things. If I know that Bioware will never mandatory kill a squad-mate, it reduces an opportunity. Removing potential always decreases tension, because it reduces the total number of directions in which the story can go. Where as, even if they don't go with the mandatory squad-mate death, that it could happen merely raises the tension in any individual scene.

Ex: Imagine if someone told you at the start of Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire that character X definitely was not going to die. In a series pretty well-known for the author's killing of characters, that removes possibilities, pretty significant possibilities. Even imagine the opposite scenario, that they tell you that character X is definitely going to die.

Both possibilities really would affect any potential reading of the series, since you have a greater idea of what to expect and aren't going in blind. I'm all for your idea as a potential option, but I don't think it necessarily needs to exclude mandatory squad death as another potential option, if that makes any sense.

Not saying this is a good or a bad thing.  It just is.  If a LI has to die and doesn't get a massively spectacular send-off, there will be rage.  Even then, there'd be rage.  Just less rage.

Unfortunately. Like I said, I think we'd be better off seeing what Bioware can do moving away from the LI direction. Aside from BG1/NwN, I'm curious to see if that could affect their writing style.

[crimzontearz]

I doubt the female LI's will Die with an unborn child...............not Bioware's style at all

[TheRevanchist]

iakus wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

see Kate Bowman doesn't have to die.  her death is completely avoidable.  but is the consequence of saving her worth it?  you decide.

That's exactly the kind of thing I'm thinking of.  Imagine other scenerios like that, but with Miranda, Liara, Garrus, etc.  

Only, with actual consequences later one;)

Other choices liike this:  the rachni queen, the Council, David in Project Overlord,  Choices made regarding other which choosing to help them might or might not come back to bite you later.  Now replace them with squadmates.  What are you willing to do, who are you willing to sacrifice, to save the galaxy?

Exactly...if you sacrifice too much for your squadmates...make victory impossible. Because you chose to place your selfish attachments to your friends above the needs of the galaxy. It does not have to be forced upon us at all, its these kinds of things that would make ME3 fantastic.  

[CoffeeHolic93]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

I haven't even looked at them.

There's no need to, we just repeat ourselves over and over. :happy:

[Soul Cool]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...
I haven't even looked at them.

If you want some exercise in reading the same points being made by the same old thread people and some new people to the thread, it will be good for you. If not, well, yeah. Don't bother.

[Il Divo]

Soul Cool wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...
I haven't even looked at them.

If you want some exercise in reading the same points being made by the same old thread people and some new people to the thread, it will be good for you. If not, well, yeah. Don't bother.

It makes what we do here sound so depressing when you put it like that.

[CoffeeHolic93]

Il Divo wrote...

It makes what we do here sound so depressing when you put it like that.

...It's not? 

[Soul Cool]

Il Divo wrote...

Soul Cool wrote...
If you want some exercise in reading the same points being made by the same old thread people and some new people to the thread, it will be good for you. If not, well, yeah. Don't bother.

It makes what we do here sound so depressing when you put it like that.

Coming at you from page 89!

Soul Cool wrote...

ThePwener wrote...
And this huge thread is about.....?

It is a thread. About things. But nothing useful. Or serious. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie]