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#2651
Iakus

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Il Divo wrote...

But that's the problem here; potentiality and actuality are two different things. If I know that Bioware will never mandatory kill a squad-mate, it reduces an opportunity. Removing potential always decreases tension, because it reduces the total number of directions in which the story can go. Where as, even if they don't go with the mandatory squad-mate death, that it could happen merely raises the tension in any individual scene.


But we're not talking about a squadmate being unkillable, we're talking about a squadmate which can die, but whom Shepard can potentially save, if he/she is willing to make some sort of compromise.  I think that takes things in more directions.  How much is the player willing to sacrifice?  Would the character resent Shepard for it?  Or be grateful?    Does saving one character endanger another later on?

Ex: Imagine if someone told you at the start of Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire that character X definitely was not going to die. In a series pretty well-known for the author's killing of characters, that removes possibilities, pretty significant possibilities. Even imagine the opposite scenario, that they tell you that character X is definitely going to die.

Both possibilities really would affect any potential reading of the series, since you have a greater idea of what to expect and aren't going in blind. I'm all for your idea as a potential option, but I don't think it necessarily needs to exclude mandatory squad death as another potential option, if that makes any sense.

Given the series isn't done yet, I'd still be worried about said character :D  But the comparison isn't entirely accurate.  A book is already written, the story told.  In a video game, the story branches out, and a situation can resolve itself multiple ways before continuing on to the next chapter.  In such a game, the story is never the same twice.  So if I was told that in Mass Effct 3, that James Vega would not die, I'd know he had invincible plot armor and not worry about him.  If I was told he would die, I'd be keeping an eye out for some "blaze of glory"-type moment for him to make an appearance.  If I was told he could die under certain circumstances, I'd be wondering what those were, and what that means for the rest of the story.

I'm not saying a mandatory plot death is always a bad thing.  But it needs to be done carefully.  Mass Effect 3 in particular, because some of these characters have been with us since the beginning, and bonding has taken place.  These are not new characters in a new story.

Actually that may be another reason to hope Bioware goes on to new projects after this...

#2652
Soul Cool

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iakus wrote...
Actually that may be another reason to hope Bioware goes on to new projects after this...

Something new that is not Mass Effect or SWTOR would be excellent.

#2653
Lotion Soronarr

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kylecouch wrote...

Soul Cool wrote...

kylecouch wrote...
Nor I or anyeone else is asking for a "perfect" ending. We simpley think a "happy" ending should be POSSIBLE. if we think its worth it we will sacrifice a companion, but to force it upon us removes that choice, which is what the game boils down to.

Sometimes you don't get a choice to do things your way. That really is a "I want it to be my perfect story" objection.


its a game based on choices. it is not real life where you have no control. Both endings can co exsist...if you lack the willpower to kill your companions when given the choice and must therefor have it forced upon you in order to have someone die then thats your problem...and I should not have to have my gameplay experience suffer for it when I payed just as much as you did...more possibly if you dont have CE.


This has nothing to do with willpower.

The crux of the matter is that is forces me to RP a different Shep than I want in order to achive it.

#2654
Lotion Soronarr

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crimzontearz wrote...
please stop trying to act cool or mature or superior....it's A: over rated, B rather silly. Simply because YOU seem to prefer a certain kind of entertainment that is arguably more realistic than the kind of entertainment someone else likes that does not make you "better" or more "mature" than others in any way shape or form. 

truth is, if you cared only about the outcome then the means to such outcomes would not matter. Thus the existence of a different, less bittersweet, outcome for the pleasure of other palates should not influence your enjoyment of the outcome YOU consider more satisfying. But since the very existence of an alternative (or third option) seems to turn other oucomes into sullied goods, to you, then what must matter is the very imposition of the outcome (like the "sadistic choice" scenario).


The most wrong statement on the internet..ever.
The means shouldn't matter at all?

So, if in order to get the ending I want, I have to completely ruin my RP Shep and destroy my image of hte unvierse...that shouldn't matter?:mellow:

How about this - you can save all the squadmates. BUT, to do so you msut RP a Shep that is a retard of galactic proportions. Would that please you? No? But you got your outcome! What are you complaining about?

#2655
AdmiralCheez

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The crux of the matter is that is forces me to RP a different Shep than I want in order to achive it.

You know what I hate not being able to RP?

A Shep that's not buddy-buddy with the old ME1 squad.

#2656
Guest_Cthulhu42_*

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AdmiralCheez wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The crux of the matter is that is forces me to RP a different Shep than I want in order to achive it.

You know what I hate not being able to RP?

A Shep that's not buddy-buddy with the old ME1 squad.

You know what I hate not being able to RP?
A Shepard who flat-out refuses to go to his trial after Arrival.

#2657
AdmiralCheez

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Cthulhu42 wrote...

You know what I hate not being able to RP?
A Shepard who flat-out refuses to go to his trial after Arrival.

Boy, that Bioware.  Restricting our roleplaying options.  Shame.

#2658
Lotion Soronarr

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kylecouch wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

kylecouch wrote...
Exactly. the odds of like 6 people surviveing a galactic war are undoubtedly higher then the masses. Killing off memebers of such a small group is...to me...nothing but heavy handed attempts to make us QQ when it's hardly nessasary.


You would be wrong there. First off, it's roughly a dozen..not 6.

Secondly, a commadno team is constatnly at greater risk than normal people. That because commanod teams constantly go into danger and  dangerous missions.
Even the most elite of the elite (like the Delta Force or SEALs) suffer losses. So it's actually the OPPOSITE.

Really? Seal Team 6....not even wounded....every bad guy dead...9/11...2k+ people dead, caused by the man that they killed...oh yea...quite the opposite.



On that 1 mission. Note that SpecOps teams do many missions. Just because you came off wihout any casulaties in 1 mission, doesn't mean you will in every one. That is statisticly impossible. Entire teams have been wiped out sometimes.

You need to read more. Despite the best equipment and training, casulties happen quite often (and not only because of enemy action). Far more often than you'd think. Of course, you got to dig a bit to find aout it, but google is your friend.

#2659
Lotion Soronarr

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I do keep asking this question - but what logical justification is there for Shep being in position to save every squad member?

Because last I checked there wasn't one.

#2660
AdmiralCheez

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

That is statisticly impossible.

WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA.

Statistically IMPROBABLE.  It is highly UNLIKELY for a unit to experience zero casualties, but by no means impossible.

/stats nerd

#2661
AdmiralCheez

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I do keep asking this question - but what logical justification is there for Shep being in position to save every squad member?

Because last I checked there wasn't one.

Luck, skill, small squad size, competence of the squadmates themselves...

You know, the usual. *examines fingernails*

#2662
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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I do keep asking this question - but what logical justification is there for Shep being in position to save every squad member?

Because last I checked there wasn't one.

The same justification that there was for saving them all in ME2.

#2663
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Cthulhu42 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I do keep asking this question - but what logical justification is there for Shep being in position to save every squad member?

Because last I checked there wasn't one.

The same justification that there was for saving them all in ME2.


I reeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaallllllllly hate to bring this up again, I feel like I'm no longer flogging a dead horse but smacking the worn-off end of a whip at a greasy stain on the ground...

But the justification in ME2 was "do stuff." It wasn't even a lot of stuff, just the LMs and a few bits of scanning for ship upgrades.

#2664
SandTrout

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I do keep asking this question - but what logical justification is there for Shep being in position to save every squad member?

Because last I checked there wasn't one.

Proximity. If they're a squad member, the chances are good that you will be close enough to lend aid.

#2665
AdmiralCheez

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EternalAmbiguity wrote...

I reeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaallllllllly hate to bring this up again, I feel like I'm no longer flogging a dead horse but smacking the worn-off end of a whip at a greasy stain on the ground...

But the justification in ME2 was "do stuff." It wasn't even a lot of stuff, just the LMs and a few bits of scanning for ship upgrades.

Well, stupid mechanics aside, the justification was:

1. Preparedness

2. Squad competence and loyalty

3. Excellent command ability

#2666
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EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I do keep asking this question - but what logical justification is there for Shep being in position to save every squad member?

Because last I checked there wasn't one.

The same justification that there was for saving them all in ME2.


I reeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaallllllllly hate to bring this up again, I feel like I'm no longer flogging a dead horse but smacking the worn-off end of a whip at a greasy stain on the ground...

But the justification in ME2 was "do stuff." It wasn't even a lot of stuff, just the LMs and a few bits of scanning for ship upgrades.

Well then, "do stuff" shall be our justification for saving them all in ME3.

#2667
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AdmiralCheez wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I do keep asking this question - but what logical justification is there for Shep being in position to save every squad member?

Because last I checked there wasn't one.

Luck, skill, small squad size, competence of the squadmates themselves...

You know, the usual. *examines fingernails*

That didn't really answer it.

#2668
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Cthulhu42 wrote...

Well then, "do stuff" shall be our justification for saving them all in ME3.


But that's a horrible justification. It should be related to choices, not simply playing the game's content.

Again, please forgive me for bringing up the 100-page old argument, but the death loses its "force," at least it would seem, when you deliberately didn't do missions.

#2669
AdmiralCheez

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jreezy wrote...

That didn't really answer it.

No seriously, that's it.

-What if they encounter a sudden, dangerous situation?

Luck, skill, and Shepard's command ability can help pull through said dangerous sitation.

-What if the squad has to split up?

Luck, skill, and individual squadmate competence can keep them alive without Shep's help.

Seriously, with all the sh*t they've survived already, luck and skill is all they need.

#2670
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AdmiralCheez wrote...

jreezy wrote...

That didn't really answer it.

No seriously, that's it.

-What if they encounter a sudden, dangerous situation?

Luck, skill, and Shepard's command ability can help pull through said dangerous sitation.

-What if the squad has to split up?

Luck, skill, and individual squadmate competence can keep them alive without Shep's help.

Seriously, with all the sh*t they've survived already, luck and skill is all they need.

If only luck could be taken out of the equation...:devil:

Modifié par jreezy, 17 octobre 2011 - 07:03 .


#2671
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EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Well then, "do stuff" shall be our justification for saving them all in ME3.


But that's a horrible justification. It should be related to choices, not simply playing the game's content.

Again, please forgive me for bringing up the 100-page old argument, but the death loses its "force," at least it would seem, when you deliberately didn't do missions.

All I was trying to say is that there should be no more reason for squadmates to die in ME3 than there was in ME2.

#2672
AdmiralCheez

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EternalAmbiguity wrote...

But that's a horrible justification. It should be related to choices, not simply playing the game's content.

Again, please forgive me for bringing up the 100-page old argument, but the death loses its "force," at least it would seem, when you deliberately didn't do missions.

That's assuming you KNEW you had to do X for Y to survive.

Especially if the only way to unlock Quest X is to talk to Character Y a certain number of times and select certain dialogue choices.

Which is incredibly hard to do when you get caught up in the moment, forget to talk to Character Y, and by the time you get around to it, the plot takes over and you no longer have that option available.

So unless you play as slowly as possible, know all the plot and pacing details in advance, and keep damn good track of yourself, it's actually pretty easy to get caught with your pants down, especially on your first run.

#2673
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Cthulhu42 wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Well then, "do stuff" shall be our justification for saving them all in ME3.


But that's a horrible justification. It should be related to choices, not simply playing the game's content.

Again, please forgive me for bringing up the 100-page old argument, but the death loses its "force," at least it would seem, when you deliberately didn't do missions.

All I was trying to say is that there should be no more reason for squadmates to die in ME3 than there was in ME2.

Honestly, that's kind of stupid, to me at least. 

#2674
AdmiralCheez

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jreezy wrote...

If only luck could be taken out of the equation...

If luck were taken out of the equation, the Reapers would have shown up five minutes into ME1 and everyone would be dead.

#2675
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jreezy wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Well then, "do stuff" shall be our justification for saving them all in ME3.


But that's a horrible justification. It should be related to choices, not simply playing the game's content.

Again, please forgive me for bringing up the 100-page old argument, but the death loses its "force," at least it would seem, when you deliberately didn't do missions.

All I was trying to say is that there should be no more reason for squadmates to die in ME3 than there was in ME2.

Honestly, that's kind of stupid, to me at least. 

And you give such good reasons why that is.