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#301
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I agree. This is a very accurate and moving manifesto for almost all Mass Effect fans.

IMO Shepard is in the same category as Julius Caesar or Suleiman the Magnificent. Many of us have the capacity to make a huge impact on the course of history, but few of us have the opportunity to. We just have to make our own limited amount of impact in our own ways, as much as circumstances allow. Mass Effect gives us the opportunity to experience first hand the deeds of one extremely impactful person.

However, I do not think that my set of friends and colleagues in real life and myself are in any way inherently inferior to Shepard and her friends and associates. We may not have the same opportunity to have a galaxy-wide influence lasting epochs, but we possess the same will to power. All we need to do is optimize our efforts within the current constraints.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 07 octobre 2011 - 10:47 .


#302
Prince Zeel

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DiebytheSword wrote...

Prince Zeel wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Prince Zeel wrote...
Do not get me wrong, I loved SoTC, and i enjoy simple stories as well. Like Zelda. but don't come in here and tell me its the pinnacle of game plots. It's a different type of game, its story was fairly weak and further more, like I said, I DIDNT LEARN ANYTHING.


Does a story have to have a moral/message in order to be good?


Yes, I think so. if a story does not impart some sort of message on you. Is it really worth mentioning?

Think back to your kindergarden stories, with the picture books. some of these stories have stood the test of time. why? The message!


I don't think its true that you have to have a moral or message imparted every time for a story to stand the test.  What you are specifically talking about is a parable.  Not every story is one.  Not every good story is a parable, but every parable is usually a good story.  I would say that in order for a story to build some sort or rapport between you and the author, that is, a sharing of ideas, it most have some sort of resonance with you.  You seek resonance with the tale through a strong message, moral or not.  Thus a tale of stoic sacrifice wherein a namelss protagonist saves someone he cares deeply about does not resonate with you within the framework of SotC.

Mass Effect resonates with me on many levels, which is why I find it so engaging.  But it is a polar opposite to the story telling in SotC.  It has many themes, many plot threads, and the plot is advanced through dialogue as well as action.  So while you did not resonate with SotC, it does not mean that it did not have themes that could resonate with the viewer/participant, just themes that did not resonate with you.


It's not that SotC didn't resonate with ME. I'm perfectly capable of understanding why say Twilight of all shtty things resonates with others when it would not for me. SotC has no message, is what I'm saying. It's like he called it. "Simplistic". Its not meant to resonate. which is indeed its charm. So, though i'm bashing SotC right now, I hope its clear that I LOVED the game, the story was okay, but deserves no special mention.

#303
DaringMoosejaw

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Dave's suggestions, while realistic, hits me with the usual problem I have with reality...it's boring and easily foreseeable.

#304
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Prince Zeel wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Prince Zeel wrote...



EternalAmbiguity wrote...


Things I've learned from the BS-N:

Engage the people who want to discuss a topic. Ignore the idiots that just want to fight. Try once (or maybe twice) to remind people of your actual position if they get it wrong and if they persist, ignore them too.

I've noticed that no one has addressed the fact that the people who want the 'kill everyone' endings are acting exactly like the hardcore homophobes (i.e. 'If I don't like a feature, NO ONE MUST BE ALLOWED TO HAVE IT, Muah ha ha!')


Jesus christ. How do I even start with you woman? I'm not for the "kill everyone ending" (Or any ending in particular) but i do think the Happy ending is kind of a cop out. lets try to appease everyone. and guess what, I'm not a HARDCORE HOMOPHOBE. good grief, watching too much MSNBC are we?


Good grief, man, at least get your quoting right.

Why don't you go back to wanking off to final fantasy characters. 
How's that for quoting?


Oh nice, you REALLY just helped your credibility there.

I wasn't the one who said that,in your initial quote.

#305
Xewaka

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TS2Aggie wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

SERIOUS RESPONSE: Allowing player choice and a happier sort of ending does not compromise story integrity.  It's like saying the only way to make a story good is to murder the cast.

It does, like someone said a few pages back: a winner takes all option automatically invalidate every single "lesser" option.

No, it doesn't.

Actually, yes, it does. When you have to pick between two grey areas, neither choice is "right". When your choice is two grey areas and a shining, stunning white, it destroys any real weight the other two grey choices had.
Imagine you were able to save both companions in Virmire. Who would leave any of them to die, knowing that a third option to save them both is available? Having a completely white solution destroys any narrative weight the grey solutions can have, by virtue of negating them both.

#306
Prince Zeel

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EternalAmbiguity wrote...

WHATEVER YOU SAID


Bro, does it look like I give a flying iaota ? You're so low on my priority list, your name will be there long after my death.

Modifié par Prince Zeel, 07 octobre 2011 - 10:47 .


#307
Grand Admiral Cheesecake

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Good to see that ol' Zeely is trolling in top form again.

#308
Prince Zeel

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Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Good to see that ol' Zeely is trolling in top form again.


Actually Cheescake. I' am done with the "trolling". It's nice to see you though, hopefully we can stop with all the Troll-branding nonsense.

#309
DiebytheSword

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Prince Zeel wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

Prince Zeel wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Prince Zeel wrote...
Do not get me wrong, I loved SoTC, and i enjoy simple stories as well. Like Zelda. but don't come in here and tell me its the pinnacle of game plots. It's a different type of game, its story was fairly weak and further more, like I said, I DIDNT LEARN ANYTHING.


Does a story have to have a moral/message in order to be good?


Yes, I think so. if a story does not impart some sort of message on you. Is it really worth mentioning?

Think back to your kindergarden stories, with the picture books. some of these stories have stood the test of time. why? The message!


I don't think its true that you have to have a moral or message imparted every time for a story to stand the test.  What you are specifically talking about is a parable.  Not every story is one.  Not every good story is a parable, but every parable is usually a good story.  I would say that in order for a story to build some sort or rapport between you and the author, that is, a sharing of ideas, it most have some sort of resonance with you.  You seek resonance with the tale through a strong message, moral or not.  Thus a tale of stoic sacrifice wherein a namelss protagonist saves someone he cares deeply about does not resonate with you within the framework of SotC.

Mass Effect resonates with me on many levels, which is why I find it so engaging.  But it is a polar opposite to the story telling in SotC.  It has many themes, many plot threads, and the plot is advanced through dialogue as well as action.  So while you did not resonate with SotC, it does not mean that it did not have themes that could resonate with the viewer/participant, just themes that did not resonate with you.


It's not that SotC didn't resonate with ME. I'm perfectly capable of understanding why say Twilight of all shtty things resonates with others when it would not for me. SotC has no message, is what I'm saying. It's like he called it. "Simplistic". Its not meant to resonate. which is indeed its charm. So, though i'm bashing SotC right now, I hope its clear that I LOVED the game, the story was okay, but deserves no special mention.




I can see that point of view.  And please, do not remind me of that vapid Stephanie Meyer's creation that my wife dragged into the house.  That, btw is a good example of a well written story that doesn't really impart a lesson.  I don't like it, but my wife and her friends love the hell out of the first book for a good reason.  As soon as I noticed the book was headed to action written in first person through the eyes of someone who couldn't comprehend the action she was seeing, I knew the book would not be for me.  That aside, you don't really learn anything from Edward and Bella's misadventures.  Except maybe that you dislike this current fad.

#310
Arcadian Legend

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Seriously guys, chill before mods/admins come in and start laying down banhammers.

#311
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Prince Zeel wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Good to see that ol' Zeely is trolling in top form again.


Actually Cheescake. I' am done with the "trolling". It's nice to see you though, hopefully we can stop with all the Troll-branding nonsense.


Oh, you're funny.

#312
Grand Admiral Cheesecake

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DarkRiku7 wrote...

Seriously guys, chill before mods/admins come in and start laying down banhammers.


But....but.....all the bannings would be most pleasing to the Dark Gods!:(

#313
Saberchic

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I like Dave's ideas, but it sounds like the game would be on some kind of timer then.

I'm not a fan of timed games/missions. There are instances when I just want to take my time and explore what's there.

As for Cheez's OP: I do want varied endings that range from "Kicked major butt! Everybody's all good!" to "I really f'd that up, didn't I?"

I'd just really want the "best" ending to be more accessible for the middle ground players. I'd like to see the paragons and renegades have a harder time because they were so extreme. Plus, I feel that a lot of paragades and renegons got shafted by not "being extreme" in either direction. (I'm lookin' at you, special dialogue options!)

#314
Prince Zeel

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If you check Amazon, the reviews are ridiculously positive. It's hard to feel apart of the masses, when the masses act like giant tools.

I hope you were joking with the "well-written" part. Twilight only success is taking all the romance cliches teenage girls like and making it work with vampires. That's its allure.

#315
Aggie Punbot

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Xewaka wrote...

TS2Aggie wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

SERIOUS RESPONSE: Allowing player choice and a happier sort of ending does not compromise story integrity.  It's like saying the only way to make a story good is to murder the cast.

It does, like someone said a few pages back: a winner takes all option automatically invalidate every single "lesser" option.

No, it doesn't.

Actually, yes, it does.

Actually, no, it doesn't.

Xewaka wrote...

Imagine you were able to save both
companions in Virmire. Who would leave any of them to die, knowing that a
third option to save them both is available?


People that actually roleplay their characters.

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 07 octobre 2011 - 10:55 .


#316
Prince Zeel

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EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Prince Zeel wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Good to see that ol' Zeely is trolling in top form again.


Actually Cheescake. I' am done with the "trolling". It's nice to see you though, hopefully we can stop with all the Troll-branding nonsense.


Oh, you're funny.


Why do you continue to poke me and then whine about trolling a second later? Either you want my response or you don't. make up your mind, you useless schmuck.

Modifié par Prince Zeel, 07 octobre 2011 - 10:53 .


#317
Siegdrifa

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Dave of Canada wrote...

What I want:
Shepard arrives to Rannoch and has to deal with the Quarian and Geth fleets, you're busy solving their issues while the Reapers are devastating everything throughout the galaxy.

The Quarians offer a solution: Wipe out the Geth, infect them with a virus that wipes them off the face of the galaxy and you'd have the Quarian fleet available to you as quickly as possible which allows you to go on being a big goddamn hero as quickly as possible.

Consequences:
(GOOD) The Quarian fleet is gained, less time is spent arguing meaning there's less destruction in the galaxy.
(BAD) The Geth are destroyed, you lose Legion (he dies too).

The Geth offer a solution: Wipe out the Quarians, they don't want it but they understand that they're under constant threat and it's never going to end. They've got some weapons which they'd be capable of activating to destroy the Quarian flotilla, you just need to go out and activate them while they're being disassembled by Quarian engineers.

Consequences:
(GOOD) The Geth are recruited, less time is spent arguing meaning there's less destruction in the galaxy.
(BAD) The Quarians are destroyed, Tali is absolutely disgusted / furious at Shepard.

You realize there's a third solution: Through peace and negotiations, you'd be capable of making them understand each other and join together into your fleet and fight against the Reapers.

Consequences:
(GOOD) Both fleets join your side.
(BAD) It took far much longer to negotiate the peace, more people have died throughout the galaxy.

With your new fleet, you fly toward Tuchanka where you left James Vega to discuss with Wrex and prepare the Krogan fleets. You arrive and discover the Reapers have intervened with their efforts, they're orbitally bombarding Tuchanka and preventing the Krogan from doing much of anything.

Wrex and Vega contact Shepard and tell them to run, Tuchanka isn't going to make it and Shepard needs his/her fleet and time to save the galaxy.

You decide to send your fleet in against the Reapers, you fight a brutal space and ground battle which results in a lot of destruction among your numbers.

Consequences:
(GOOD) Krogan join your fleet, Vega survives.
(BAD) Your fleet was almost destroyed, it took a long time to save the Krogan.

You decide to hold off your fleet, Vega says he understands and Wrex says it was an honor knowing you. You fly away as Tuchanka is being destroyed in the distance.

Consequences:
(GOOD) Your fleet is spared, more time is available to save everybody else.
(BAD) Wrex and the Krogan are destroyed, Vega is killed.

You arrive to another planet and depending on how "long" you've taken, the planet has:
Just started to be invaded, allowing you to possibly save more soldiers.
Has been under invasion for a while, you fight through indoctrinated soldiers but can save half of them.
The planet has been harvested, you fly past it's remains.

What I don't want:
You always arrive at the nick of time, your fleet's casualties mean nothing regardless of the invasion occuring around you and no matter how long it takes for you to save the galaxy it won't get any worse. The sacrifices are never personal.


Yhea so you want the player to loose somethings no matter what he does, it's always a half  win or half loss, the player would get pissed easly, spending the whole game half failling is irritating and at some point i'm sure not all players will keep playing, since "what the hell, no matter what i do, i always loose something, better spend my time on something less frustrating" and less would do another half loss playthrough.
Most of players don't like to get punishement forced on them, even for drama and realism sake, this is an entertainement, not a survival simulation.

#318
Prince Zeel

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TS2Aggie wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

TS2Aggie wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

SERIOUS RESPONSE: Allowing player choice and a happier sort of ending does not compromise story integrity.  It's like saying the only way to make a story good is to murder the cast.

It does, like someone said a few pages back: a winner takes all option automatically invalidate every single "lesser" option.

No, it doesn't.

Actually, yes, it does.

Actually, no, it doesn't.


Did you have an argument, sweetie pie?

#319
Legbiter

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Self-medication via obsessive fandom is no way to go through life son.

Otherwise, a solid 7 in the heartfelt does-Bioware-even-care category.

Now go live real life.

#320
Prince Zeel

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Legbiter wrote...

Self-medication via obsessive fandom is no way to go through life son.

Otherwise, a solid 7 in the heartfelt does-Bioware-even-care category.

Now go live real life.


FREE TIP: THEY DONT!

they only care about the MONIES!

#321
Arcadian Legend

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Prince Zeel wrote...

If you check Amazon, the reviews are ridiculously positive. It's hard to feel apart of the masses, when the masses act like giant tools.

I hope you were joking with the "well-written" part. Twilight only success is taking all the romance cliches teenage girls like and making it work with vampires. That's its allure.


Okay. Good to know. And Cheezecake, the dark gods have been appeased far too much lately. In fact, so much, they need some rest. :(

Modifié par DarkRiku7, 07 octobre 2011 - 10:56 .


#322
KBomb

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Xewaka wrote...

Actually, yes, it does. When you have to pick between two grey areas, neither choice is "right". When your choice is two grey areas and a shining, stunning white, it destroys any real weight the other two grey choices had.
Imagine you were able to save both companions in Virmire. Who would leave any of them to die, knowing that a third option to save them both is available? Having a completely white solution destroys any narrative weight the grey solutions can have, by virtue of negating them both.




That argument has never made much sense to me. Why does it matter about the other two endings if you choose not to get them? Why would me choosing ending C, for instance, ruin your ending A. If you strove to get ending A, then ending B or C has little meaning in your play through and it shouldn’t matter to you what endings other people get as long as you can play the game and still get ending A. 
 
Taking ME2 as an example, if I beat the game with everyone surviving and you beat it while killing four teammates, why should I care? And why should you care if I beat the game with everyone surviving?

Modifié par KBomb, 07 octobre 2011 - 10:58 .


#323
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Prince Zeel wrote...

Why do you continue to poke me and then whine about trolling a second later? Either you want my response or you don't. make up your mind, you useless schmuck.


But the MOST amusing part is how when I say, "Oh, you're funny" you decide that means whining.

I just wanted you fix your quote, which I just noticed is fixed. And for you to chill out.

#324
jeweledleah

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Xewaka wrote...

TS2Aggie wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

SERIOUS RESPONSE: Allowing player choice and a happier sort of ending does not compromise story integrity.  It's like saying the only way to make a story good is to murder the cast.

It does, like someone said a few pages back: a winner takes all option automatically invalidate every single "lesser" option.

No, it doesn't.

Actually, yes, it does. When you have to pick between two grey areas, neither choice is "right". When your choice is two grey areas and a shining, stunning white, it destroys any real weight the other two grey choices had.
Imagine you were able to save both companions in Virmire. Who would leave any of them to die, knowing that a third option to save them both is available? Having a completely white solution destroys any narrative weight the grey solutions can have, by virtue of negating them both.

personaly I loved it that I could save connor AND his mother in DAo.  sure I had to jump through a million hoops to do, I had to make sure that I saved the circle, I had to keep asking and asking and wondering if it was possible.  but I loved having that option.

you know which gray decision in ME was absolutely perfect?  bring down the sky.  do you save the hostages?  or catch a terrorist?  and actualy - Zaeed's mission was similar in that regard.  save the workers?  or catch Vido? neither choice was perfect.  but it gave you an option to save more lives, at least short term.

Virmire solution could have been - save Ash, or Kaidan, OR Salarians.  it could have been - save them both and allow Saren to escape with research.  annigilate the research completely at thecost of a squadmate.  it could have been something else.  but instead it fooled you into thinking that you could actualy make a difference and then faced you with an idiotic choice thatchoind't have been an issue in a first place, concidering that most people have their full team at that point, or in other words - you have a whole freaking extra squad, just standing by instead of going to rescue the squadmate that Shepard cannot get to.

you canhave a relatively happy ending and still keep the gray imperfect choices.  but when you have NO choice, no option?  that IMO is loads worse. its artificial drama for the sake of drama.

#325
AdmiralCheez

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Kaiser Shepard wrote...

I didn't call you a cancer, I merely did so at the collective attitude shared by people unable to tell bad writing from its better equivalent.

On the BSN, my identity is constructed entirely of my words, thoughts, and opinions.  By calling my ideas cancerous, you are calling me cancerous.  Sorry, bro.

I disagree that happy-ish endings are "bad writing."  I'm not a literature major or anything, but I'm a nut for good writing and storytelling, and I frequently analyze everything I watch and read.  I'm greatly interested in what tricks a writer might use to manipulate her audience, and I like to investigate what makes a story so good or memorable.

Allowing the player a little wish fulfillment may make hardcore literature critics frown upon the final product, but that segment of the population is so elitist and closed-minded that nothing pleases them unless it follows their specific set of rules.  Hell, they can't even agree on what makes a story "good," since so much of it is wrapped in their personal preferences and opinions.  However, there are so many other ways to get your audience to care and be moved in your story besides railroading a game about choice and consequence into an unavoidable death.  In fact, I'd say unavoidable deaths show bad writing, since it implies that Bioware has backed off the "choice and consequence" thing they've been pushing and defaulted on non-interactive media's worn-out bag of tricks.

Let's say Legion dies no matter what.  Unless it's done incredibly well, I wouldn't feel grief and sadness; I'd feel angry and cheated, and my experience would be cheapened because the cool guy everyone liked got the axe because ooh drama!

Also, what's so problematic about jokes at someone's expense? I mean, it's not like I'm advocating jokes about terrible diseases or people dying, but there's nothing wrong with the occassional race, gender or sexuality joke, as long as it's within an appropriate context.

It's problematic because it desensitizes people to the plight of others.  And it's insulting.  I should not have responded how I did, and I'm sorry, but it was a knee-jerk reaction and I didn't catch myself being an ass until after the fact.

On the flipside, what's so problematic about being curteous on the internet?  It takes longer to type?

Please clarify?

I think it started with the "gays and people who engage in video game romances are sexually depraved" thing you did.  That and you tend to look down on anyone who doesn't share your specific point of view.

It does, like someone said a few pages back: a winner takes all option automatically invalidatea every single "lesser" option.

How is Garrus surviving somehow a more valid ending than Garrus dying, especially if either end was the result of a difficult decision which had gains and losses on each side?  And by extension, do you think including a "Reapers win" ending would be pointless since "Reapers lose" is obviously more desirable?

You seem to think that you wouldn't be able to control yourself if you knew you could keep your favorite character from dying.  This can be avoided by A.) Bioware taking care not to make any choice obviously superior and to include alternative means of emotional engagement and B.) you not reading strategy guides and spoilers before or during your first run.