4309 réponses à ce sujet

[Killjoy Cutter]

Il Divo wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

That makes absolutely no sense. 

Not if we extrapolate from his/her statement. Killing characters whom you dislike or have no interest in accomplishes very little from a narrative perspective. If the logic is that people like their companions and want to save them, that would be a potential (not necessarily actual) motivation for a writer to kill them. Much like real life, you don't want the people around you to suffer and die. But because it happens in real life, that is where a writer can draw inspiration.

When characters die on screen, I'm not meant to be jumping for joy; I am experiencing grief. But there is a certain beauty in knowing that a writer was able to effectively create that kind of reaction from me which makes death such a wonderful narrative option.  

Really?  Once I know it's inevitable, I just find it frustrating. 

[Il Divo]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...


It's a game, not a movie.  The player's choices and actions have to mean something.  If they don't, you get DA2, where you can't save the Orgrebait sibling, ever, at all, for any reason, and which one dies is based on something as unrelated as which class you chose.  And no matter what, you can never save Leandra -- you're never given the option of following up on the serial killer, and you never find out Leandra was taken until it's too late.  

Jade Empire demonstrates this is certainly possible. Plenty of choice is offeredin the game, but there is also mandatory character death. If Bioware kills a squad-mate, they are not (by necessity) going to prevent your every opportunity at having meaningful decisions.

If I do a playthrough of ME1, I never get attached to Kaiden or Ashley, because I know Vermire is coming.  They just sit there in the background and rarely go on missions with me. 

I'm the same way, but that was mainly a result of disliking both Kaidan/Ashley, and has nothing to do with mandatory death as instituted in a story-line, for myself. I personally don't stop enjoying Boromir, Yoda, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Mercutio, Achilles, Julius Caesar, etc, because I know they are going to die on subsequent viewings. My enjoyment (and sorrow) is primarily a result of how much I enjoyed their respective characters and is not whether or not they survived the entire story.

Modifié par Il Divo, 20 octobre 2011 - 01:59 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

If I do a playthrough of DA2 now, I look at the sibling, and think "You're going to die soon".  I look at Leandra and say "you're going to die in the middle of Act 2."  I look at Anders and think "Why am I even helping you?  I can't change the downward spiral you're on and you're going to do something terrible no matter what I do." 

If I do a playthrough of ME1, I never get attached to Kaiden or Ashley, because I know Vermire is coming.  They just sit there in the background and rarely go on missions with me. 

It sounds like you're trying to protect yourself from future emotional harm in the same way people withdraw and distance themselves from the terminally ill.

I guess you look at the game as a toy.  You want to play with it over and over again and see what different things it can do?  I look at it more as a story.  I want to create the most satisfying narrative I can.  Maybe that's why we're arguing across each other.

[Killjoy Cutter]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Wizen, the reality of going to war is that either you or your friends are going to die. It's not bad writing to reflect that.

No, you and your friends RISK dying. 

[CaptainZaysh]

Someone With Mass wrote...

It's even worse if the player doesn't care about the character at all.

How come you didn't care about Kaiden or Ashley?  Both are brave, caring, tenacious and hot.  IRL being friends with either would be a privilege IMHO...

[Dean_the_Young]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Undertone wrote...

Of course there are varying degrees of being a renegade. To me a renegade stands as victory at all / any cost or don't judge my methods, judge my cause and what I seek to create, establish. That's why my Shepard would utilize any resource even if she is a xenophob in terms of politics, not individuals. Hell, I even picked Garrus (my favorite squad mate) as my romance in ME2 after Kaidan not trusting me. 

So killing Wrex makes no sense to me when I can utilize him to my advantage. 

Yeah but you get a much better story if Wrex dies on the beach.  Especially since you're playing as Femshep - if she signals Ash to kill the big lug, his last words are amazing.

Damn, I play a Paragon-ish FemShep, even though I did kill him. What are the Renegade words?

[Siegdrifa]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]Siegdrifa wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You also have happyness in RL. You don't need it in your entertaiment?
It's exactly because it exists in RL that I want it to be in the game too. It's adds to the legitimacy, the realism of the game.
[/quote]

What's people are looking as entertainement is not universal, same want funny things, some wants dumb things, some wants serious, depend of the mood, peoples tast etc.[/quote]

I want it all.
If people want to reduce an entire universe to just some ascpt, then that's their problem.
[/quote]

The more you open a games toward different thing at the same time, the harder it get to force people on 1 outcome or one vision of the ending.

[quote]
[quote]
I agree that rpg don't always use different outcome, nomatter your choice, it's hard and lot of work on the long run.
But, when writting story for RPG, you can't write in in one way.
For exemple, when they write the Shepard paragon outcome, they can't make it like any other choice were wrong, the renegade choice need to be as legit as paragon with a fiting outcome.[/quote]
[quote]
And what does that have to do wit hanything?

Choices exists and add to replay value (theorethical) regardless what the choice is about. Choocing between 2 squaddies or two civies - a a chocie is a choice.
Altouhg - also technicly - if people don't LIKE the choice they are presented with, they might never take it, thus limiting replay value - however, this is hte specific problem of the individual.
[/quote]
[/quote]

 Because many people, unlike novel or movie, will interact with the world and story in different ways that could make sens for them, so the writter can't adopt one way of writting, it must be written for x y and z people and all must feel legit carying the outcome they were expecting.

Novel or movie story writting is a one way street, X hero of movie have a personnality already choosen and he must act toward this personnality logicaly. You can't write a story about a hero that is supposed to be a defender of bunnys and sunshines , make him see a child killed in front of him and say "well, life his hard those days for the youngsters" and walk away like that.
In video games like ME, different kind of personnality have to be treated with the same quality to make them legit and make sens in the way you play the story.

When it is well done, the outcome they carry produce different impact on the player, because the outcome for the same event could be a sad moment or happy moment (my exemple of DAO son's arl). Because you have different outcome, it's harder to build a maximum impact to the player's feelings at some point.

That's why i don't agree when people says "this works for me, so it should be forced on everybody as well".

[quote]
[quote]
So, i don't see why ME3 should ONLY be doom and gloom, unless the writters stat it because they want it to be like this "hi guys, prepare to face the threat of galaxy and be ready, because you are fighting a lost battle, so don't expect happy ending, survival will be ferocious and your choices will be hard".[/quote]

Who said it should ONLY be doom and gloom?
altough you had plenty of happy in ME1 and 2. ME3 seems to be the darkest part yet (and makes sense, given what's going on)
[/quote]
[/quote]
As long as "good ending" of other match with your vision, and being against others "good ending possibility"  because you think your good ending is more legit, no need fo...

[Killjoy Cutter]

Il Divo wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

It might work maybe one or two times, but the integrity of the story shouldn't rely on character deaths, because that will get old, repetitive and lose the emotional strength fast.

Exactly. 

How many times can you play through a game, knowing that character X is going to die no matter what you do, before it becomes part of the background scenery and you just drive on by? 

How many times can it happen in a film? Or any other medium, for that matter? How many times can you play through ME1's plot points, knowing that the same thing happens every time? Nihlus dies, Shepard gets hit with the beacon, investigating Saren, etc.

There's a reason I don't watch a lot of movies and I'm picky about my books.  I just read a pair of novels that add up to well over 1000 pages.  The protagonist's younger sister and mother were killed within the first 50 pages (I think), and it bugged me for the remainding 1000+ pages, because you could tell exactly why the writer did it, it was transparent.   It was "insert deeply personal motivation and show how terrible the antagonist is here". 

[Il Divo]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

How come you didn't care about Kaiden or Ashley?  Both are brave, caring, tenacious and hot.  IRL being friends with either would be a privilege IMHO...

My issue with them was that both squad-mates felt very mundane, with very few unique perspectives on the world. Ashley's background is essentially a soldier, who hasn't got to see much of anything. Most time interacting with Ashley (for example) involves the kind of conversations I feel I could have with people on the street. Kaidan was slightly better, with a more interesting backstory, but he still felt like Carth Onasi, minus the revenge story.

[Killjoy Cutter]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

If I do a playthrough of DA2 now, I look at the sibling, and think "You're going to die soon".  I look at Leandra and say "you're going to die in the middle of Act 2."  I look at Anders and think "Why am I even helping you?  I can't change the downward spiral you're on and you're going to do something terrible no matter what I do." 

If I do a playthrough of ME1, I never get attached to Kaiden or Ashley, because I know Vermire is coming.  They just sit there in the background and rarely go on missions with me. 

It sounds like you're trying to protect yourself from future emotional harm in the same way people withdraw and distance themselves from the terminally ill.

I guess you look at the game as a toy.  You want to play with it over and over again and see what different things it can do?  I look at it more as a story.  I want to create the most satisfying narrative I can.  Maybe that's why we're arguing across each other.

I look at the game as a game. 

Not as some sort of opportunity to recreate a Campbellian bull$$!+ "hero's jouney" trope-fest. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 20 octobre 2011 - 02:08 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Wizen, the reality of going to war is that either you or your friends are going to die. It's not bad writing to reflect that.

No, you and your friends RISK dying. 

No, in a fighting unit in constant combat somebody is definitely going to die.

I'm ex-army, so quite a few friends of mine serve in my old unit out in Afghan.  Every tour they've lost people.  Last time they went three months patrolling every day without a casualty (one of my friends said that period was like Call of Duty) but then they lost two guys in one day.  And this is Afghan, one of the least lethal wars* in history, not an end-of-the-world-apocalyptic-war-to-end-all-wars scenario like the Reaper invasion.

*at least for the good guys

Modifié par CaptainZaysh, 20 octobre 2011 - 02:19 .

[Someone With Mass]

CaptainZaysh wrote...
How come you didn't care about Kaiden or Ashley?  Both are brave, caring, tenacious and hot.  IRL being friends with either would be a privilege IMHO...

Kaidan was just okay. Nothing that stood out or piqued my interest beyond his time in that school for biotics.

Ashley is one of those character with a weak attempt at being deep and I've seen her type millions of times before to the point where I just despise it, because it adds absolutely nothing new and I can read the whole thing like an open book.

[Il Divo]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

There's a reason I don't watch a lot of movies and I'm picky about my books.  I just read a pair of novels that add up to well over 1000 pages.  The protagonist's younger sister and mother were killed within the first 50 pages (I think), and it bugged me for the remainding 1000+ pages, because you could tell exactly why the writer did it, it was transparent.   It was "insert deeply personal motivation and show how terrible the antagonist is here". 

Yet surely that's all dependent on how well the death is handled? Implementation is always important. But even with books though, the experience is entirely passive. You seem to be arguing from the position that you don't re-watch/re-read many forms of entertainment, which is understandable, I know alot of people who follow that approach, because the experience is lessened each time. But I don't see how/why death should become any more stale than any other narrative element, since in the case of a book the story stays the same every time.

I mean, filming a war movie or writing a war novel without even considering the possibility of killing any of your major characters does raise the question of why use a war setting in the first place?

Modifié par Il Divo, 20 octobre 2011 - 02:13 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Damn, I play a Paragon-ish FemShep, even though I did kill him. What are the Renegade words?

If she signals Ash to take him out, Wrex belatedly realises he shouldn't have f**ked with Commander Shepard, and calls her a bitch.

[Killjoy Cutter]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

It's even worse if the player doesn't care about the character at all.

How come you didn't care about Kaiden or Ashley?  Both are brave, caring, tenacious and hot.  IRL being friends with either would be a privilege IMHO...

Because I know when one of them is going to die, and where, and how, no matter what Shep does or how hard Shep tries. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Someone With Mass wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...
How come you didn't care about Kaiden or Ashley?  Both are brave, caring, tenacious and hot.  IRL being friends with either would be a privilege IMHO...

Kaidan was just okay. Nothing that stood out or piqued my interest beyond his time in that school for biotics.

Ashley is one of those character with a weak attempt at being deep and I've seen her type millions of times before to the point where I just despise it, because it adds absolutely nothing new and I can read the whole thing like an open book.

Well, as long as you don't say tha Liara, Tali, or Garrus are deep and innovative characters...

[Dean_the_Young]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

It's even worse if the player doesn't care about the character at all.

How come you didn't care about Kaiden or Ashley?  Both are brave, caring, tenacious and hot.  IRL being friends with either would be a privilege IMHO...

Because I know when one of them is going to die, and where, and how, no matter what Shep does or how hard Shep tries. 

Man, I'd hate to be your relative if I was terminally ill.

[CaptainZaysh]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

How come you didn't care about Kaiden or Ashley?  Both are brave, caring, tenacious and hot.  IRL being friends with either would be a privilege IMHO...

Because I know when one of them is going to die, and where, and how, no matter what Shep does or how hard Shep tries. 

And that makes you not like them?  

[Labrev]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

"Death only matters if it's someone you know" is a silly assertion and a silly concept. 

Utter nonsense.  2,000 people will die of malaria tomorrow, and you won't lose a wink of sleep over it.  But if Mrs Killjoy Cutter were going to be executed at dawn you wouldn't get a wink of sleep.  There are some defensible positions on the other side of the argument, but this is not one of them.  Death of someone you know personally has infinitely more impact than the death of a stranger.

Okay, now that is pure crap right there. I've heard other people say this too, but you/they can't speak for me.

Sure, I may not stop and think about everyone around the world who is suffering, but when it is brought up I'm very much remorseful about it and sorrry that it has to happen. I can put it in perspective of people I care about without actually having to lose them to know what kind of hardship the families of the lost would be going through, and knowing they loved them like I love my own family/close friends.

Empathy - you don't have to know someone to have it for them.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Il Divo wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

There's a reason I don't watch a lot of movies and I'm picky about my books.  I just read a pair of novels that add up to well over 1000 pages.  The protagonist's younger sister and mother were killed within the first 50 pages (I think), and it bugged me for the remainding 1000+ pages, because you could tell exactly why the writer did it, it was transparent.   It was "insert deeply personal motivation and show how terrible the antagonist is here". 

Yet surely that's all dependent on how well the death is handled? Implementation is always important. But even with books though, the experience is entirely passive. You seem to be arguing from the position that you don't re-watch/re-read many forms of entertainment, which is understandable, I know alot of people who follow that approach, because the experience is lessened each time. But I don't see how/why death should become any more stale than any other narrative element, since in the case of a book the story stays the same every time.

I mean, filming a war movie or writing a war novel without even considering the possibility of killing any of your major characters does raise the question of why use a war setting in the first place?

We're not filming a movie or writing a novel. 

In those media, you're right, it's passive -- you know going in that you are engaged in taking in the story that someone else is telling. 

In an RPG, the character is the player's character, not the storyteller's.  As much choice and control as is practical needs to be left to the player. 

[Someone With Mass]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Well, as long as you don't say tha Liara, Tali, or Garrus are deep and innovative characters...

Never had, never will.

They're still better than Ashley and Kaidan, in my opinion. Even if they were pretty much just encyclopedias in the first game.

[Dean_the_Young]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

"Death only matters if it's someone you know" is a silly assertion and a silly concept. 

Utter nonsense.  2,000 people will die of malaria tomorrow, and you won't lose a wink of sleep over it.  But if Mrs Killjoy Cutter were going to be executed at dawn you wouldn't get a wink of sleep.  There are some defensible positions on the other side of the argument, but this is not one of them.  Death of someone you know personally has infinitely more impact than the death of a stranger.

Okay, now that is pure crap right there. I've heard other people say this too, but you/they can't speak for me.

Sure, I may not stop and think about everyone around the world who is suffering, but when it is brought up I'm very much remorseful about it and sorrry that it has to happen. I can put it in perspective of people I care about without actually having to lose them to know what kind of hardship the families of the lost would be going through, and knowing they loved them like I love my own family/close friends.

Empathy - you don't have to know someone to have it for them.

How many close friends and family have you lost? Are you honestly going to claim that you feel as bad about the couple of hundred people who have died while you read this post, as you did if/when they died?

[Il Divo]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

We're not filming a movie or writing a novel. 

In those media, you're right, it's passive -- you know going in that you are engaged in taking in the story that someone else is telling. 

In an RPG, the character is the player's character, not the storyteller's.  As much choice and control as is practical needs to be left to the player. 

But as I said before, video games employ passive story-telling as well; you are not literally in control of every event as they occur. Sagacious Zhu always dies in Jade Empire, but the game still allows plenty of opportunities for choice. If mandatory death eventually becomes stale, shouldn't that apply to any point that's forced on the character?

[Yezdigerd]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

No, in a fighting unit in constant combat somebody is definitely going to die.

And in my game Shep and his squaddies dies all the time. Then I hit reload, I guess your Shepard stays down when he takes a bullet in the head.

If NATO had a reload button there wouldn't be any casualites in Afganistan either.

[Dean_the_Young]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Well, as long as you don't say tha Liara, Tali, or Garrus are deep and innovative characters...

Never had, never will.

They're still better than Ashley and Kaidan, in my opinion. Even if they were pretty much just encyclopedias in the first game.

Those three are even more achetypical.

ME1 Ashley is actually a rarity in modern fiction and games, being a rare mix of (a) a non-sex symbol female character (and especially love interest), ( openly religious, and © politically-incorrect.