4309 réponses à ce sujet

[AdmiralCheez]

Lizardviking wrote...

Ehhh. I would not compare the heretic choice with Vimire. They serve quite different purposes. Legion's LM is a difficult moral dillema, while Virmire was designed as a point where the hero suffered and the stakes where raised.

Quite different scenarios that serve quite different purposes to the player.

But that's the thing.  The heretics were a moral dliemna--it was about you, the player.  I learned something about myself playing that mission.

Virmire?  About the hero, Shepard.  Not the player.  The disconnect took me out of the game.  YMMV.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

It depends on the way and reason they're dying. Killing them off a la Halo Reach just to create some sort of emotion that was pretty hard to feel because everyone already knew that everyone in the game was going to die is in no way good writing.

Just how many people in this thread, let alone the last ten pages, have argued in favor of a Halo Reach style scripted death for certain characters in particular?

I wouldn't have anything againdt them.
A quick, unexpected death of out nowhere - no speeches, no drama, no nothing. A sniper bullet takes out Garrus during a fallback action. He's dead befoire he even knew.

Some would rage of course. I wouldn't.

[Janus Prospero]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

You know what I think the best decision in ME was?  Legion's loyalty mission.  I have to think about it for like an hour every damn time.  Why is it good?  Probably because neither decision is clearly "right," and what you'll get out of either isn't exactly clear.

Agree. The only real downfall to this IMO is that the game attributes Paragon or Renegade to the decision, when either can be very grey.

To me why you chose the action is way more important than the action itself. For example if you're playing a Paragon Shep I could forsee you justifying the destruction of the heretics because rewriting them is some real Orwellian sh*t.

What would have been really nice is if after making your decision, Legion asked you why you did it, and based on that answer you derived your Paragon Renegade points.

If you rewrote them:
   /-  I couldn't kill them for their beliefs (Paragon)
O-   I don't know (Neutral)
   \\-  They needed to be "saved" (Renegade)

If you destroyed them:
   /-  I couldn't change who they were (Paragon)
O-   I don't know (Neutral)
   \\-  They were my enemies (Renegade)

The downside to this though is that it sort of robs you of the choice of your own internal monologue and why you made the choices you did. Tough call. The Bioware writers have a difficult job.

Modifié par Janus Prospero, 22 octobre 2011 - 10:57 .

[sorentoft]

Jenova65 wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

Bekkael wrote...

sorentoft wrote...
When did that L2 ever stand a chance to Ashley? I mean, yeah. Pointless waste of character.

He's alive in every one of my games.

I suppose we even each other out then.

He's alive in all of mine too  And my daughter's and her BF's and my son's  (I love Ashley... I just love Kaidan more, so there )

Personally I prefer Ash. Kaidan is alright too, but since I am forced to make a choice between the two... 'tis Ash. Every time. 'ceptforthatonetimewhenIhadtotryaplathroughwithKaidan.:innocent:

[Lotion Soronarr]

Cthulhu42 wrote...
Well, I may have been exaggerating a bit there, but what I was trying to say is that killing off someone who's been at Shepard's side for two or three games solely for "the realism" is not necessary when you can show realism in other ways.

Except that if you refuse to kill anyone in the squad, then you really can't. You're kicking realism in the nads and sticking a big "invulnerable" sticker on the squaddies.

[Lotion Soronarr]

xentar wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Like I said before, you want games that are escapism. We want games based in realism.

That is an illusion of realism. In a truly realistic game we don't win where a 1000 previous civilizations failed.

Not without a McGuffin. And there's a 99.99% chance of there begin a McGuffin.

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

That just goes hand in hand with anything having to do with the Reapers. The geth probably don't understand why.

And yet, they have that impulse outside if the Reapers.  They keep the homeworld spotless as a shrine to past mistakes, and Cerberus devoted a large portion of personnel and funding into exploiting that impulse.  Legion repeatedly behaves in ways that have no logical explanation outside of "he felt like it at the time."  Hence, welding Shepard's armor to his shoulder but not bothering to patch the gaping hole in his chest.

Its hole.  Their hole.  Whatever.  Pronouns!

The writers have an agenda. They never let us take the quarian side or condemn the geth. We are either allowed to blame the quarians or to remain silent. Pro-geth characters always get the last word. It's garbage.

Uh, no.  You can sell Legion, encourage the quarians to wipe out the geth, and side with Tali on her views about the geth if you want, especially during her LM.

The only "agenda" the writers have is to show you both sides.  It is canon that the geth have a religious impulse and heavily implied that they feel emotions and don't quite understand why.

I actually recall you lamenting the "devolution" of the geth into a complex race rather than faceless, emotionless machines with motives beyond organic understanding.  I, for one, saw that part foreshadowed in ME1 and found geth culture to be fascinating in ME2.  I don't think you should get upset, though--we still have the Reapers.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Ehhh. I would not compare the heretic choice with Vimire. They serve quite different purposes. Legion's LM is a difficult moral dillema, while Virmire was designed as a point where the hero suffered and the stakes were raised.

Quite different scenarios that serve quite different purposes to the player.

But that's the thing.  The heretics were a moral dliemna--it was about you, the player.  I learned something about myself playing that mission.

Virmire?  About the hero, Shepard.  Not the player.  The disconnect took me out of the game.  YMMV.

Yes it was a moral dillema. So what? I like these kind of stuff. But again the two situations you are comparing are completely different things.

Virmire was there to raise the stakes of the main-plot. It was there to show how serious the situation was to the player, not only did it contain "the twist", it also showed that this mission is not just another walk in the park. The opposing force is dangerous, they are not idiots messing around.

In short. Virmire is there to make you realise that **** just got real.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 22 octobre 2011 - 11:02 .

[billy the squid]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

The only "agenda" the writers have is to show you both sides.  It is canon that the geth have a religious impulse and heavily implied that they feel emotions and don't quite understand why.

I actually recall you lamenting the "devolution" of the geth into a complex race rather than faceless, emotionless machines with motives beyond organic understanding.  I, for one, saw that part foreshadowed in ME1 and found geth culture to be fascinating in ME2.  I don't think you should get upset, though--we still have the Reapers.

Indeed, I always did like the Geth, paticularly Legion and the apparant worship of the Reapers akin to deification is interesting.
(shamelessly stolen from elsewhere, but an interesting point.)

"When does a perceptual schematic become consciousness? When does a difference engine become the search for truth? When does a personality simulation become the bitter mote... of a soul?"

Are the Geth entirely driven by logic anymore?

Modifié par billy the squid, 22 octobre 2011 - 11:03 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Lizardviking wrote...

In short. Virmire is there to make you realise that **** just got real.

I realize that was its intention, but it made the whole thing seem less real to me.  Hence why I felt it was ineffective.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

In short. Virmire is there to make you realise that **** just got real.

I realize that was its intention, but it made the whole thing seem less real to me.  Hence why I felt it was ineffective.

Then lets pray they will build a better Virmire situation for ME3.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
I'm pissed off every time I read a comment that someone in the squad has to die for the game to be "realistic", and that the best way to do this is to inject some pathetic Hollywood formula writing.

Someone in the squad has to die for the game to be "realistic", and that
the best way to do this is to inject good formula
writing.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I wouldn't have anything againdt them.
A quick, unexpected death of out nowhere - no speeches, no drama, no nothing. A sniper bullet takes out Garrus during a fallback action. He's dead befoire he even knew.

Some would rage of course. I wouldn't.

I'd be disappointed, because it'd be a complete "been there, done that" moment for me. 

[FeralEwok]

Cpt. Kirrahe: I will need one of your men Shepard, either of these two will do
Take Ashley
/
O
\\
Take Kaidan

Great I get to pick which one is about to die...Virmire was telegrahped way before the bomb was set.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
I'm pissed off every time I read a comment that someone in the squad has to die for the game to be "realistic", and that the best way to do this is to inject some pathetic Hollywood formula writing.

Someone in the squad has to die for the game to be "realistic", and that
the best way to do this is to inject good formula
writing.

The Normandy is destroyed by a Reaper with Shepard aboard when it's about to take off and leave Earth.

It's totally realistic and it's the good and ideal writing.

Make it happen, BioWare. You'll gain so many points with the realists in the world.

[sorentoft]

Virmire was extremely artificial. It just filled me with apathy the first time I did it.

[howl3d]

FeralEwok wrote...

Cpt. Kirrahe: I will need one of your men Shepard, either of these two will do
Take Ashley
/
O

Take Kaidan

Great I get to pick which one is about to die...Virmire was telegrahped way before the bomb was set.

yah i saw it coming a mile away.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Just because something is likely does not mean it is guaranteed to happen.  And remember, Shep's made a career out of doing incredibly unrealistic things.  While "no required squadmate deaths" would be unlikely in real-life terms, it would be perfectly consistent with what has happened in Mass Effect so far.

The first time? No. But the more times you repaet it, the more liekly it becomes.
It's EXACTLY because someone made it out of an impoosible situation a doizen times that the next one is even more impossible. the mroe you pile up, the more redicolous it becomes.

There is nothing "unrealistic" about a group of six people managing to survive several high-risk situations.  If we heard about a group of Navy Seals that completed fourteen missions with zero casualties in hostile territory, we wouldn't be crying "UNREALISTIC," but "Damn, those guys are crazy-good at what they do and very lucky.  Give those kids medals."

Yes, it is.
Do you know why you haven't heard of such a group? Because it doesn't exit.
There isn't a group that survies multiple high-intensity missions wihout casualties.

[billy the squid]

FeralEwok wrote...

Cpt. Kirrahe: I will need one of your men Shepard, either of these two will do
Take Ashley
/
O

Take Kaidan

Great I get to pick which one is about to die...Virmire was telegrahped way before the bomb was set.

Yep, I liked Virmire, paticularly the chin wag with Saren, but I agree that the conversation had a sense of painting the proverbial bullseye on one team mate's head, it could have been handled with a greater degree of subtlety.

[Someone With Mass]

FeralEwok wrote...

Cpt. Kirrahe: I will need one of your men Shepard, either of these two will do
Take Ashley
/
O

Take Kaidan

Great I get to pick which one is about to die...Virmire was telegrahped way before the bomb was set.

This is the only thing I thought of when I picked one of them.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 22 octobre 2011 - 11:21 .

[Someone With Mass]

The last conversation with Saren was so jarring, because one moment he was hell-bent on ushering forth the apocalypse, but the second Shepard said that it was wrong, he immediately reconsidered his options.