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Let me save them.

Débuté par AdmiralCheez , oct. 07 2011 05:44

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#3851
Jenova65
Posté 22 octobre 2011 - 11:22

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sorentoft wrote...

Jenova65 wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

Bekkael wrote...

sorentoft wrote...
When did that L2 ever stand a chance to Ashley? :wub: I mean, yeah. Pointless waste of character. ^_^


He's alive in every one of my games. :D

I suppose we even each other out then.^_^

He's alive in all of mine too :P And my daughter's and her BF's and my son's :P (I love Ashley... I just love Kaidan more, so there :lol:)

Personally I prefer Ash. Kaidan is alright too, but since I am forced to make a choice between the two... 'tis Ash. Every time. 'ceptforthatonetimewhenIhadtotryaplathroughwithKaidan.:innocent:

I love them both, but as my mum always said ''It wouldn't do for us all to be alike'', so that is the end of that discussion :P

#3852
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 22 octobre 2011 - 11:24

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Arcian wrote...

That's because only a retard would take the quarian side.


You've got it backwards, kid. You have to be a shallow, vapid idiot to side with the geth. Understanding the quarian POV requires intelligence and a critical mind. An understanding of nature and politics is necessary.

Go read through this page sometime. It will enlighten you. (Well, not you, nothing could accomplish that)

The Killing Star

  • THEIR SURVIVAL WILL BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN OUR SURVIVAL.
    If an alien species has to choose between them and us, they won't
    choose us. It is difficult to imagine a contrary case; species don't
    survive by being self-sacrificing.
  • WIMPS DON'T BECOME TOP DOGS.
    No species makes it to the top by being passive. The species in
    charge of any given planet will be highly intelligent, alert,
    aggressive, and ruthless when necessary.
  • THEY WILL ASSUME THAT THE FIRST TWO LAWS APPLY TO US.
....

As near as we can tell, there is no inhibition against killing
another species simply because it displays a high intelligence. So, as
much as we love him, Carl Sagan's theory that if a species makes it to
the top and does not blow itself apart, then it will be nice to other
intelligent species is probably wrong. Once you admit interstellar
species will not necessarily be nice to one another simply by virtue of
having survived, then you open up this whole nightmare of relativistic
civilizations exterminating one another.

It's an entirely new situation, emerging from the physical
possibilities that will face any species that can overcome the natural
interstellar quarantine of its solar system. The choices seem
unforgiving, and the mind struggles to imagine circumstances under which
an interstellar species might make contact without triggering the
realization that it can't afford to be proven wrong in its fears.

Got that? We can't afford to wait to be proven wrong.



#3853
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 22 octobre 2011 - 11:28

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The Mote In God's Eye

"Gently, Sandy," First Lieutenant Cargill interjected. "Dr. Horvath, I take it you've never been involved in military intelligence? No, of course not. But you see, in intelligence work we have to go by capabilities, not by intentions. If a potential enemy can do something to you, you have to prepare for it, without regard to what you think he wants to do."


This is what the quarian situation comes down to.

Modifié par Saphra Deden, 22 octobre 2011 - 11:29 .

#3854
Sgt Stryker
Posté 22 octobre 2011 - 11:29

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Someone With Mass wrote...

The last conversation with Saren was so jarring, because one moment he was hell-bent on ushering forth the apocalypse, but the second Shepard said that it was wrong, he immediately reconsidered his options.


That? Shepard was just using his insheprination ability again.

#3855
Someone With Mass
Posté 22 octobre 2011 - 11:30

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Arcian wrote...
That's because only a retard would take the quarian side.


Guess I'm a retard, then.

Sorry, but I'm not falling for the whole: "Oh, the geth are so innocent, even if they commited mass murder and killed millions of children and old people in self-defense" crap.

Yeah, the quarians did a mistake, but if I'm going to condemn a race based on something like that, then I can might as well let the human race die out completely, because we have had many situations similar to the one the quarians and the geth experienced, but on a smaller scale in our history.

If the quarians are stupid, then the humans are lobotomized retards.

#3856
howl3d
Posté 22 octobre 2011 - 11:32

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Someone With Mass wrote...

Arcian wrote...
That's because only a retard would take the quarian side.


Guess I'm a retard, then.

Sorry, but I'm not falling for the whole: "Oh, the geth are so innocent, even if they commited mass murder and killed millions of children and old people in self-defense" crap.

Yeah, the quarians did a mistake, but if I'm going to condemn a race based on something like that, then I can might as well let the human race die out completely, because we have had many situations similar to the one the quarians and the geth experienced, but on a smaller scale in our history.

If the quarians are stupid, then the humans are lobotomized retards.

love that...lobotomized retards.....ha ha ha :)

#3857
Guest_Arcian_*
Posté 22 octobre 2011 - 11:43

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Arcian wrote...

That's because only a retard would take the quarian side.


You've got it backwards, kid. You have to be a shallow, vapid idiot to side with the geth. Understanding the quarian POV requires intelligence and a critical mind. An understanding of nature and politics is necessary.

Go read through this page sometime. It will enlighten you. (Well, not you, nothing could accomplish that)

Oh wow, more fancy insults instead of arguments. You sure know how to surprise, Saphra.

Oh and if you're trying to pass that page off as some kind of holy grail of irrefutable proof for your claims and the veracity of your ideas, you are the greatest tool in the history of tools.

#3858
Athayniel
Posté 22 octobre 2011 - 11:44

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Just because something is likely does not mean it is guaranteed to happen.  And remember, Shep's made a career out of doing incredibly unrealistic things.  While "no required squadmate deaths" would be unlikely in real-life terms, it would be perfectly consistent with what has happened in Mass Effect so far.


The first time? No. But the more times you repaet it, the more liekly it becomes.
It's EXACTLY because someone made it out of an impoosible situation a doizen times that the next one is even more impossible. the mroe you pile up, the more redicolous it becomes.


You really don't know how probabilities work do you? If a coin lands on heads five times in a row it's in improbable series of events, but that doesn't stop the odds of that sixth coin toss landing on heads still being 50%.

There is no such thing as a luck deficit.

You can rail against the improbability, but that's all it is. And if Shepard and Co make it through an impossible situation it's only because it wasn't that impossible after all. It's not as if they're going to be fighting the large reapers head-on on foot or anything. The fights in ME3 will likely be against much the same sorts of enemies as we saw in ME1 and ME2. Footsoldiers and lieutenants, the odd boss as well. The types of foes they are well-equipped and well-suited to fighting.

It's not Shepard's job to fight the reapers. It's Shepard's job to defeat them.

#3859
Xilizhra
Posté 22 octobre 2011 - 11:45

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Saphra Deden wrote...

The Mote In God's Eye

"Gently, Sandy," First Lieutenant Cargill interjected. "Dr. Horvath, I take it you've never been involved in military intelligence? No, of course not. But you see, in intelligence work we have to go by capabilities, not by intentions. If a potential enemy can do something to you, you have to prepare for it, without regard to what you think he wants to do."


This is what the quarian situation comes down to.

You never seem to remember that the quarians trying to kill off the geth was a horrible idea for both sides.

#3860
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 22 octobre 2011 - 11:47

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Xilizhra wrote...


You never seem to remember that the quarians trying to kill off the geth was a horrible idea for both sides.


It was the only sensible action they could take. At the time the quarians didn't have the benefit of hindsight.

#3861
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 22 octobre 2011 - 11:48

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Arcian wrote...

Oh and if you're trying to pass that page off as some kind of holy grail of irrefutable proof for your claims and the veracity of your ideas, you are the greatest tool in the history of tools.


Expecting you to read something is expecting way too much from you. Go back to Ponychan.

#3862
Almostfaceman
Posté 22 octobre 2011 - 11:53

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Stanley Woo wrote...

Let's keep the name-calling and insults out of the discussion, please.


#3863
Guest_Arcian_*
Posté 22 octobre 2011 - 11:54

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Someone With Mass wrote...

Arcian wrote...
That's because only a retard would take the quarian side.


Guess I'm a retard, then.

Sorry, but I'm not falling for the whole: "Oh, the geth are so innocent, even if they commited mass murder and killed millions of children and old people in self-defense" crap.

Yeah, the quarians did a mistake, but if I'm going to condemn a race based on something like that, then I can might as well let the human race die out completely, because we have had many situations similar to the one the quarians and the geth experienced, but on a smaller scale in our history.

I have no intention of condemning anyone. I intend to save both species, and I intend to help them both prosper after the Reaper War.

That said, the quarians could have avoided their fate altogether by not being impulsive morons. This is what I consider to be the "mistake" you mentioned. Hypothetically, let's say they were right about the geth being killbots with itchy trigger fingers. If they had let the geth attack them first, they would have been the victims instead of the culprits.

And the geth aren't innocent either, but that does not mean one should be a massive, vengeful douchebag like Saphra and condemn their race to either death or enslavement. They can repay their blood debt to the quarians by helping them rebuild, and pay annual reparations in form of technology and resources for the same amount of time they held quarian territory. This way the quarians can get back on their feet faster, and the geth can redeem themselves in the eyes of the galactic community.

Someone With Mass wrote...

If the quarians are stupid, then the humans are lobotomized retards.

No arguments there, actually...

#3864
Guest_Arcian_*
Posté 22 octobre 2011 - 11:54

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Oh and if you're trying to pass that page off as some kind of holy grail of irrefutable proof for your claims and the veracity of your ideas, you are the greatest tool in the history of tools.


Expecting you to read something is expecting way too much from you. Go back to Ponychan.

Look at all these insults, man! They're everywhere!

#3865
JeffZero
Posté 22 octobre 2011 - 11:55

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I side with neither the quarians nor the geth. I would sooner bring them together than choose one and proclaim it any more benevolent than the other.

#3866
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 22 octobre 2011 - 11:56

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Arcian wrote...

That said, the quarians could have avoided their fate altogether by not being impulsive morons.


They were not impuslive and they were not morons. They couldn't predict the future, they couldn't know the geth and their plans. They were dealing with a complete unknown, an unkown that possessed great capacity for harm. They did the sensible thing by trying to shut the geth down. Every moment they wasted without taking action was a moment the geth grew stronger and the danger to the quarians more severe.

The only impulsive party here is you.

#3867
Someone With Mass
Posté 22 octobre 2011 - 11:57

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Arcian wrote...
I have no intention of condemning anyone. I intend to save both species, and I intend to help them both prosper after the Reaper War.

That said, the quarians could have avoided their fate altogether by not being impulsive morons. This is what I consider to be the "mistake" you mentioned. Hypothetically, let's say they were right about the geth being killbots with itchy trigger fingers. If they had let the geth attack them first, they would have been the victims instead of the culprits.

And the geth aren't innocent either, but that does not mean one should be a massive, vengeful douchebag like Saphra and condemn their race to either death or enslavement. They can repay their blood debt to the quarians by helping them rebuild, and pay annual reparations in form of technology and resources for the same amount of time they held quarian territory. This way the quarians can get back on their feet faster, and the geth can redeem themselves in the eyes of the galactic community.

Someone With Mass wrote...

If the quarians are stupid, then the humans are lobotomized retards.

No arguments there, actually...


I pretty much agree on all points there, so I won't add anything.

#3868
Guest_Arcian_*
Posté 23 octobre 2011 - 12:01

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Arcian wrote...

That said, the quarians could have avoided their fate altogether by not being impulsive morons.


They were not impuslive and they were not morons. They couldn't predict the future, they couldn't know the geth and their plans. They were dealing with a complete unknown, an unkown that possessed great capacity for harm. They did the sensible thing by trying to shut the geth down. Every moment they wasted without taking action was a moment the geth grew stronger and the danger to the quarians more severe.

The only impulsive party here is you.

Let's see, I advocate carefully investigating the situation instead of jumping the gun and dealing with a hypothetical problem that quite frankly hasn't become a real problem yet, and I'm impulsive?

Yeah, now you're just trolling, man.

#3869
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 23 octobre 2011 - 12:02

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You see, Arcian, you don't even understand the issue. You think the quarians are wrong merely because they attacked first. Then you go on to say that if the geth had attacked the first the quarians would thus be "right" because they'd be victims. Well, if the geth attacked first the quarians might not have even survived. They scarcely survived even when they got the first strike in the war.

What would your stance be if the quarians had let the geth strike first and the geth totally wiped the quarians out down to the last man?

Would you say they "died with honor"?

What good would that do the quarians? Would good would anything do the quarians if they were wiped out?

Like I said, you don't understand the issue at hand here if this is what it hinges on for you. You don't understand that the priority for the quarians, as for any species or nation, is survival. It is NOT the moral highground. The moral highground ceases to be desirable when it means the death of your civilization. Survival is what matters and survival is what the quarians told. Their leaders were morally obligated to choose survival.

#3870
Codyacsmith
Posté 23 octobre 2011 - 12:05

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Both sides took the option they thought was best, I just want to resolve the situation.

#3871
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 23 octobre 2011 - 12:05

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Arcian wrote...

Let's see, I advocate carefully investigating the situation instead of jumping the gun and dealing with a hypothetical problem that quite frankly hasn't become a real problem yet, and I'm impulsive?


Yes, you are. You have not thought about this carefully as I just explained. For you it is purely a moral issue. So you immediately decide the quarians were wrong for attacking without trying understand why they did it. If you stopped and thought about you'd realize that "Careful investigation" was not a realistic choice. Investigation would require time, time in which more geth would awaken and the geth would become more organized. The more organized they became the more of a threat they would be. They were already reaching the point at which the quarians could not control.

The safest thing was to deactivate the geth to stop them from evolving any further and to neutralize the threat. Unfortunately, the geth were already far more developed than the quarians realized.

Let me ask you this, HOW would you investigate? What steps would you take in the mean time? Would you at least PREPARE for the worst?

Would you have your military on stand by? Would you be evacuating civilizians? Would you attempt to move geth away from sensitive areas?

Do you suppose any defensive actions like this might actually provoke the geth to attack since such actions could be seen as provocative?

#3872
Someone With Mass
Posté 23 octobre 2011 - 12:14

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I would've at least tried to separate the geth and the quarian populations before tampering with the switches.

#3873
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 23 octobre 2011 - 12:18

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Someone With Mass wrote...

I would've at least tried to separate the geth and the quarian populations before tampering with the switches.


Yeah, you'll just move your entire civilization. That's not very practical, you know. It as the widespread use of the geth that made them dangerous. You can't just separate the populations because the geth are important in keeping your civilization functioning in the first place.

Even just shutting them down and having all the geth switch off was going to cause a lot of problems.

Not to mention, as I explained, evacuating your people may have provoked the geth to attack anyway. After all, maybe you are evacuating your people so you can unleash hell without killing them?

#3874
Guest_Arcian_*
Posté 23 octobre 2011 - 12:21

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Saphra Deden wrote...

You see, Arcian, you don't even understand the issue. You think the quarians are wrong merely because they attacked first. Then you go on to say that if the geth had attacked the first the quarians would thus be "right" because they'd be victims. Well, if the geth attacked first the quarians might not have even survived. They scarcely survived even when they got the first strike in the war.

What would your stance be if the quarians had let the geth strike first and the geth totally wiped the quarians out down to the last man?

Would you say they "died with honor"?

What good would that do the quarians? Would good would anything do the quarians if they were wiped out?

Like I said, you don't understand the issue at hand here if this is what it hinges on for you. You don't understand that the priority for the quarians, as for any species or nation, is survival. It is NOT the moral highground. The moral highground ceases to be desirable when it means the death of your civilization. Survival is what matters and survival is what the quarians told. Their leaders were morally obligated to choose survival.

If you think survival was the motivating factor behind their attack, you need to stop being a tool.

The geth was an economic, military and social crutch that the quarians had grown dependant on, and the departure of the geth - the PEACEFUL departure of the geth, mind you - would have destroyed their society just as badly as the Morning War did, with the exception billions of wartime casualties and property damage costs in the trillions.

The most logical reason they attacked the geth was because their departure would have bumped them down below the other non-council species. They might have been forced to become a client species like the volus. Maybe they thought it would send a message to the other species that they still had the power to defend their own interests. Maybe they thought they could salvage the situation. Maybe they were just really desperate and not thinking clearly.

Either way they were doomed, but the path they chose cost them most of their species. That was their greatest mistake, and because of the costs, I cannot support what they did. And unlike you, I don't intend to help them make that mistake again.

#3875
Codyacsmith
Posté 23 octobre 2011 - 12:24

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