4309 réponses à ce sujet

[Killjoy Cutter]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I want **** to get real this time because ME2 was such a let-down. The enemy was neutered. This time I want the threat to be real. One squadmate, it's all I ask.

So in other words, you want someone to die in order to show how "badass" the enemy is?  Thing is, it doesn't.  As soon as you do that in a game, out of the control of the player, all you do is show the player that the game designers wanted to show them something... it's transparent. 


And again, we get back to the odd claim from you and others, that 100 billion deaths is meaningless, but 100 billion and 1 deaths shows that "**** is real" and the Reapers as "baddass".   LoL.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb wrote...

In lieu of reading post... I don't see why you two are at a stalemate, why not make it possible, but simply rather diifcult, as the name suggests? Best of both worlds.

That means Cheez gets what s/he wants and I get to eat ****. That's not compromise, people. There is no compromise on this issue. Either someone does die or they don't.

So it really comes down to someone dying no matter what for you?  No matter what, someone has to die? 

Welcome to the world of the pure renegade.

EDIT: Also known as the world of grimdark ****s.

We prefer the term "fans of actually decent storytelling".

Oh, I'm sure that's the name you prefer... 

[Marionetten]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

So in other words, you want someone to die in order to show how "badass" the enemy is?  Thing is, it doesn't.  As soon as you do that in a game, out of the control of the player, all you do is show the player that the game designers wanted to show them something... it's transparent.

The whole game is a matter of the designers wanting to show us something. It's just that some of us would like to see a well written and emotionally impactful story with lows and highs. Remember in Mass Effect after the suicide mission on Virmire when the Normandy got locked and Shepard was in the pits? That remains one of my favorite moments for a reason. For a moment I could actually sympathize with Shepard's plight.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

So in other words, you want someone to die in order to show how "badass" the enemy is?  Thing is, it doesn't.  As soon as you do that in a game, out of the control of the player, all you do is show the player that the game designers wanted to show them something... it's transparent.

You are so full of ****, all of you.

Don't you feel this way about EVERYTHING in the game then? I mean you realize that everything in the game happens according to the designer's intent, right?

And if you bother to look, you'll notice that I do object to other ways in which Bioware takes ME and DA games into the realm of "interactive cinematic experience", and other moments in which control is transparently taken away from the player in order to advance the plot that Bioware wants. 

[Someone With Mass]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

So in other words, you want someone to die in order to show how "badass" the enemy is?  Thing is, it doesn't.  As soon as you do that in a game, out of the control of the player, all you do is show the player that the game designers wanted to show them something... it's transparent. 


And again, we get back to the odd claim from you and others, that 100 billion deaths is meaningless, but 100 billion and 1 deaths shows that "**** is real" and the Reapers as "baddass".   LoL.

See, the second they get someone close to you, then you can start giving a damn. Those billions of people that are dying? Pff. Statistics.

Oh, the Reapers killed someone close to the player that any other NPC could've offed. That makes them in particular so badass.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Marionetten wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

So in other words, you want someone to die in order to show how "badass" the enemy is?  Thing is, it doesn't.  As soon as you do that in a game, out of the control of the player, all you do is show the player that the game designers wanted to show them something... it's transparent.

The whole game is a matter of the designers wanting to show us something. It's just that some of us would like to see a well written and emotionally impactful story with lows and highs. Remember in Mass Effect after the suicide mission on Virmire when the Normandy got locked and Shepard was in the pits? That remains one of my favorite moments for a reason. For a moment I could actually sympathize with Shepard's plight.

And then you're presented with the oportunity to do something about it -- you even get to chose how Anderson will override the lockdown. 

Compare that with DA2, when over and over again you're powerless, as the player, time after time after time, to take the obvious next step. 

What I'm not interested in is sitting back and passively "experiencing" a story.  It's a game.  I want to play the game and play the character as I see them. 

[Marionetten]

Someone With Mass wrote...

See, the second they get someone close to you, then you can start giving a damn. Those billions of people that are dying? Pff. Statistics.

It's true. Nobody cares about faceless statistics which is why writers so often relies on them in order to portray the strength of an enemy without upsetting the fanbase by killing off popular characters. I can't begin to describe how much I dislike fanservice.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

And then you're presented with the oportunity to do something about it -- you even get to chose how Anderson will override the lockdown. 

Compare that with DA2, when over and over again you're powerless, as the player, time after time after time, to take the obvious next step. 

What I'm not interested in is sitting back and passively "experiencing" a story.  It's a game.  I want to play the game and play the character as I see them.

Sure but that's after you've already lost someone on Virmire which is why the whole experience was so impactful and why it felt so good when you saw Anderson finally do something about it. I'm not against making choices. I'm against all choices being rendered meaningless by having perfect choices present.

I don't support the death of specific party members but I do support the death of party members depending on your choices much like Ashley or Kaidan which I still view as the most impactful choice in the entire franchise. I don't believe in a perfect ending. In fact, I loathe them as I feel they remove the entire point of having choices.

Modifié par Marionetten, 23 octobre 2011 - 02:00 .

[javierabegazo]

The last few pages are chock full of petty insults. If I see anymore in the next few pages, this is getting locked.

@Saphra Dedan

This is your last warning especially.

Play nice folks.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Not a lot of progress on this front I see, these speculation arguments about things that are probably already set in stone are fun huh?

[Kaiser Shepard]

javierabegazo wrote...

The last few pages are chock full of petty insults. If I see anymore in the next few pages, this is getting locked.

@Saphra Dedan

This is your last warning especially.

Play nice folks.

Say what now? Last time I checked, it wasn't Saphra calling people "grimdark ****s", whatever that may mean.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 23 octobre 2011 - 02:59 .

[WizenSlinky0]

Wee, things get so angry around here!

Marionetten wrote...

It's true. Nobody cares about faceless statistics which is why writers so often relies on them in order to portray the strength of an enemy without upsetting the fanbase by killing off popular characters. I can't begin to describe how much I dislike fanservice.

Sure but that's after you've already lost someone on Virmire which is why the whole experience was so impactful and why it felt so good when you saw Anderson finally do something about it. I'm not against making choices. I'm against all choices being rendered meaningless by having perfect choices present.

I don't support the death of specific party members but I do support the death of party members depending on your choices much like Ashley or Kaidan which I still view as the most impactful choice in the entire franchise. I don't believe in a perfect ending. In fact, I loathe them as I feel they remove the entire point of having choices.

Eh, I dunno why no one cares about the statistics. So long as the deaths are shown through news or cut scenes, and you see the planet and people burning around you, I care. I certainly care. Its the difference between picking up a newspaper that says "Hey, 10 million people died" and seeing video of the wreckage and of the slaughter. One way to make me care is to have Shepard catching streamed video footage of the planets that you don't get to in time basically being liquified and burned.

I still object to this overall attitude that having a characters friends got shot in the face or liquified or [insert death] being the only way to make a story emotionally impactful. Why does a party member not dying neccesitate the term 'perfect ending'? "Break" some of those living characters. Give the player a choice between letting some character or characters die fighting for what matters to them, or saving them and forcing them to live without it.

Ashley's family? Great, her family is caught in a crossfire and ashley either has to die saving them or you force her to retreat with the group and see them gunned down. You can save her, sure, but you have to live with maybe not an ashley that hates you but one that is severely scarred by the experience and may not be the same ashley you knew. Even in the end, she might not be cheering like everyone else since it was a very bitter victory.

You can do things like that and make an amazingly engaging story that forces you to choose between sacrifing friends and having those friends come through in a very broken manner. By giving those kinds of choices you stay very true to the medium and don't really lose anything in the process. I think watching those characters reactions and changes is far more interesting than watching Shepards often dull reactions to dead squadmates.

[AdmiralCheez]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Say what now? Last time I checked, it wasn't Saphra calling people "grimdark ****s", whatever that may mean.

Don't let your mancrush get in the way of your objectivity, Kaiser.

/friendly joke

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 23 octobre 2011 - 03:08 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

And if you bother to look, you'll notice that I do object to other ways in which Bioware takes ME and DA
games into the realm of "interactive cinematic experience", and other moments in which control is transparently taken away from the player in order to advance the plot that Bioware wants. 

I apologize for not following you around the forum like your own personal adoring fan.

Simply responding to your assertion that I'm not being consistent. 

Saphra Deden wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

See, the second they get someone close to you, then you can start giving a damn. Those billions of people that are dying? Pff. Statistics.

Yes, that's exactly what they are. It's impersonal. That needs to change.

ME1's final act was so effective because it made it personal. Kaidan/Ashley, possibly Wrex, and even your ship and reputation were suddenly taken from you. ME2 lacks this.

SWM was being sarcastic, in all likelihood. 

That "must make it personal" thing is part of the formula writing I've been talking about.

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Yes and there is a world of difference between that and having friend or family member be PART of that slaughter.

Yeah, there is.  You know what it is?  The lingering emptiness that's a complete pain in the ass to fill.

I don't need that crap in my entertainment.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Marionetten wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

See, the second they get someone close to you, then you can start giving a damn. Those billions of people that are dying? Pff. Statistics.

It's true. Nobody cares about faceless statistics which is why writers so often relies on them in order to portray the strength of an enemy without upsetting the fanbase by killing off popular characters. I can't begin to describe how much I dislike fanservice.

Because of course killing off characters so that some other fans can feel that it's "personal" isn't just as much an act of "fanservice"...  

Marionetten wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

And then you're presented with the oportunity to do something about it -- you even get to chose how Anderson will override the lockdown. 

Compare that with DA2, when over and over again you're powerless, as the player, time after time after time, to take the obvious next step. 

What I'm not interested in is sitting back and passively "experiencing" a story.  It's a game.  I want to play the game and play the character as I see them.

Sure but that's after you've already lost someone on Virmire which is why the whole experience was so impactful and why it felt so good when you saw Anderson finally do something about it. I'm not against making choices. I'm against all choices being rendered meaningless by having perfect choices present.

I don't support the death of specific party members but I do support the death of party members depending on your choices much like Ashley or Kaidan which I still view as the most impactful choice in the entire franchise. I don't believe in a perfect ending. In fact, I loathe them as I feel they remove the entire point of having choices.

Ashley or Kaiden doesn't die because of the player's choices.  One of them dies because it's constructed to be inevitable that one of them dies in a prescripted event at that point in the game, you just get to pick between the two, big flipping deal. 

You defend that kind of crap, and then complain about choices being rendered meaningless?  LoL, whatever.

[WizenSlinky0]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Yes and there is a world of difference between that and having friend or family member be PART of that slaughter.

Yeah, there is.  You know what it is?  The lingering emptiness that's a complete pain in the ass to fill.

I don't need that crap in my entertainment.

Peanut butter helps!

[AdmiralCheez]

Killjoy Cutter wrote... 

You defend that kind of crap, and then complain about choices being rendered meaningless?  LoL, whatever.

Hey.  Attitude.

[AdmiralCheez]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Peanut butter helps!

Not funny and not cool.