4309 réponses à ce sujet

[rapscallioness]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

In any case, I never said the squadmate dying was the ONLY way to create drama. However I feel there is still a difference between colonists dying and someone personally close to Shepard. One of his team. That is a death that the player feels, either emotionally, or even through game-play. Like having a powerful squadmate you rely on... and now when you need the most they're gone.

There is a difference. I agree with that.

However, I also feel death to be a cop out emotionally in games, and a sign of weak writing sometimes. It is a short zing, compared to the longer process where you actually get to see the characters have to live through the emotional trauma of the wounds they've gotten, what they've lost, and how their personality changes in such a high stress enviroment.

I'd much rather see the squadmates live and be written so that I can see these changes, on their faces, in their voices, and in their writing. Its more interesting and lasts a lot longer emotionally, seeing someone who has been "close" to shepard for one or two games suddenly have to deal with the tragedy of it all.

Now that I like. That was my main problem w/ the Shep resurrection thing.....there was no impact. Shepard lost alot in those 2 years, and after. And the whole thing would be traumatic for anybody. But Shep just shrugs it all off.

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I know the feeling, very well. I lost someone very dear to me less than a month ago. If I can soldier on, so can you.

I lost six of 'em within the space of one year.  And trust me, it takes more than a month to really kick in.

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Well then it sounds like you don't get as much out of fiction as you could. That's your way though.

So then, just don't get invested in the character who is going to get killed off. It's no trouble for you, you won't care that they're gone but I will. It will work for me and takes nothing from you since you don't care.

There, now we have compromise.

How is that a compromise?  What did you put on the table, exactly?

[Kmead15]

Saphra Deden wrote...

That's a good scene, but whye can't we have that and a squadmate dying?

There's only so much drama you can throw in a work before you start coming across as melodramatic. Once you cross that line, I stop taking things seriously. The in-game atmosphere might be bleaker, but I'm sure as heck not feeling it anymore. The emotional engagement is gone. Then again, as I said before, I'm kind of cynical.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Your
choice would matter. Either you sacrifice one squadmate to save 11
others or you sacrifice two to save ten. The point is, it really puts
Shepard and that squadmate on the spot. They can have a proper send-off,
rather than a death-scene that can be fulfilled by anybody and is thus
interchangable and not personal. It's a chance for a goodbye and a
salute. It's sacrifice, organics at their best during the worst of
times.

Some die so others may live.

Dang, I was remembering a different one, but I recall yours now. I'll agree that the number of people dying when someone goes down the shafts does at least make the choice mean something, but I'm not convinced that the emotional impact on the player will be any different between the two results. Unless maybe a squadmate makes the point of saying "Dude, you suck. There was a better choice and you screwed up." In which case I'd wonder why the heck they didn't speak up earlier.

To be honest, while that situation wouldn't add anything to the game for me and would bother me in replays by making me metagame when I made the decision, it wouldn't kill things for me. However, if I recall that scenario went on with death after death. That would have caused a drama overload.

Modifié par Kmead15, 23 octobre 2011 - 05:18 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I know the feeling, very well. I lost someone very dear to me less than a month ago. If I can soldier on, so can you.

I lost six of 'em within the space of one year.  And trust me, it takes more than a month to really kick in.

And for some of us, it never fades, and all we do is just "soldier on", as it was so condescendingly put. 

[xentar]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

xentar wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Um, yes, death is a bad thing. In what way would it be good? (can't believe this is actually being debated)

In that it ends life which is eternal suffering, of course. Naturally, good and bad are relaive things, so, this approach may not. work for everyone.

Don't be overdramatic; life isn't "endless suffering", and not just because it isn't endless.

By my definition of suffering, due to laws of physics and psychollgy, it is.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I don't get invested at all in characters I know are going to die in the course of the story / game. 

Well then it sounds like you don't get as much out of fiction as you could. That's your way though.

So then, just don't get invested in the character who is going to get killed off. It's no trouble for you, you won't care that they're gone but I will. It will work for me and takes nothing from you since you don't care.

There, now we have compromise.

No, we don't, not if ME3 ends up with a "vermire choice" between two of the characters I do actually care about at this point. 

[xentar]

Codyacsmith wrote...

Can't we find some common ground to agree on?

Not likely, it's a matter of personal opinions.

[Kaiser Shepard]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Can't prevent everyone from feeling insulted at everything I say.

Shouldn't try to insult people intentionally in the first place.

Didn't mean to, nor do I do that on a regular basis.

Well, it seemed like the most obvious to add make Jack's mental instavility look even worse. Don't think I've ever (indirectly) been called a "sexist" on here, though, but I guess I can put it on my list.

It's an exclusively female thing you used to make her "look even worse."  If she were a man, you wouldn't have said that.  You have linked being female to being weak.

What, that time of the month suddenly isn't a time of relative emotional instability anymore?

Next thing you say I can't make any race or weight jokes either...

And you shouldn't be making them.

That was a joke. But aside from that, I'll be the one to decide whether or not I make fun of my own or others' characteristics. I don't do it too often to begin with, let aside on the internet, but I'll be the one to decide that.

Remember that time you called me a chubby?  Yeah, I was pissed off.  That one had sexist undertones, too.

Well, you called yourself that there first. And if memory serves I said something to the extent that you didn't seem like that on your picture, and were probably being insecure.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 23 octobre 2011 - 05:20 .

[WizenSlinky0]

rapscallioness wrote...
Now that I like. That was my main problem w/ the Shep resurrection thing.....there was no impact. Shepard lost alot in those 2 years, and after. And the whole thing would be traumatic for anybody. But Shep just shrugs it all off.

Oh I kept hoping they were teasing me, and waiting for some good romantic scenes or something. 'Course they weren't. Was waiting for something along the lines of the scene changing to see Shepard at his desk, just staring at the wall, the strain of the battles visible on his face.

Someone walks in (LI, friend, Dr. Chakwas, w/e) and Shepard has a short ramble. "It's been two years...it really has, hasn't it? It felt like a nap, but everythings changed. My team is gone, everything we did, was it for nothing? Was it just delaying the inevitable?"

And you get something inspirational based on what relationship you have with them.

But noo, I get "I got better"

[Xilizhra]

What, that time of the month suddenly isn't a time of relative emotional instability anymore?

It isn't always such, it isn't relevant to character and your bringing it up as some type of inherent weakness is idiocy.

That was a joke. But aside from that, I'll be the one to decide whether or not I make fun of my own or others' characteristics. I don't do it too often to begin with, let aside on the internet, but I'll be the one to decide that.

And we will respond.

[CuseGirl]

for my first playthru, i made the mistake of reading the trophy list and seeing the "no one left behind acheivement" and got obsessed with fulfilling it on my first playthru. it was further fueled because I had already chosen Miranda during her argument with Jack, so I was SURE I would lose some1 (without Jack's loyalty). I didn't realize that as soon as I beat the game, I would be loading up a new game all over again.

with ME-3, I won't have the chance to meta game and I'm excited for my chance to shape my story and even fearful of it.....but that's a good thing. the writing of ME-2 is good enuff that I'm afraid to lose an LI, afraid to NOT save the galaxy but if I fail, i have an opportunity to try again.....can't wait....

Modifié par CuseGirl, 23 octobre 2011 - 05:24 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Can't prevent everyone from feeling insulted at everything I say.

Shouldn't try to insult people intentionally in the first place.

Didn't mean to, nor do I do that on a regular basis.

If you really mean that, then perhaps you should take a long look at what you're saying and how people react to it.  You're saying a lot of things that it is irrational and unrealistic to expect people to not be insulted by. 

[Kaiser Shepard]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Well, it seemed like the most obvious to add make Jack's mental instavility look even worse. Don't think I've ever (indirectly) been called a "sexist" on here, though, but I guess I can put it on my list.

It's an exclusively female thing you used to make her "look even worse."  If she were a man, you wouldn't have said that.  You have linked being female to being weak.

And in doing so, Kaiser, you also flat out said that anyone who doesn't want squadmate slaughter in ME3 has that preference because they are weak, unstable, emotionally troubled, and need to be coddled.

You're putting words in other peoples' mouths again, as I never said they needed to be coddled.

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

That sounds like quite a story. I had time to prepare for mine as it was a long time coming.

You mean you had time to detach yourself from the character to lessen the emotional impact of the plot event?

Regardless you should pic a different series to invest yourself. A violent shooter sold on making tough choices is not for you.

Actually, so far Mass has fit me like a glove.  Guns, strong female lead, rich and deep setting, player input on storytelling, cool characters, alien sex, real-world/moral issues, thoughtful philosiphical content buried beneath obvious fan-pandering and humor...

[rapscallioness]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

xentar wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Um, yes, death is a bad thing. In what way would it be good? (can't believe this is actually being debated)

In that it ends life which is eternal suffering, of course. Naturally, good and bad are relaive things, so, this approach may not. work for everyone.

Don't be overdramatic; life isn't "endless suffering", and not just because it isn't endless.

Xentar, is this some philosophical view, or are you about to put a gun to your head?

If you're about to put a gun to your head...DON'T DO IT! Goddammit! Don't do it. Life does get better...then it gets bad again...then it gets better...and so on. That's just the way it is. It cycles just like everything else. And no, life isn't fair, but it can be good.

If this is philosophical...well, death may not end life per se. It will end life as you know it. But then what do we all really know anyway?

[WizenSlinky0]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

How is that a compromise?  What did you put on the table, exactly?

I proposed that because he won't care about the character dying, but I will, that he loses nothing and I gain something. So it's compromise.

The definition of compromise is giving up something in exchange for something else, as in, giving up something YOU Want to appease someone else and get something ELSE you want.

So, if you cut what you want in half, and settled for half of what you want...that would be compromise.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

How is that a compromise?  What did you put on the table, exactly?

I proposed that because he won't care about the character dying, but I will, that he loses nothing and I gain something. So it's compromise.

Means that I end up pretty much ignoring 2 of the 6 squadmates in ME...  some compromise.