4309 réponses à ce sujet

[Killjoy Cutter]

Computer_God91 wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Spoiler alert: Real life sucks.  Every day, we have to face how powerless we are, how often we screw up, how bad things will keep happening to good people no matter how hard we try to stop it.  Sure, we can contribute our hearts and souls to good causes, work until our backs break to make things better, and offer all the help and comfort to the ones we love, but ultimately, the happy endings don't last.  The bad guys stay in power, the good guys get shoved to the wayside, and we retreat into our religions and philosophies to try to make sense of it all and make it hurt less.  Pessimistic, I know.  I do try hard (and should try harder), but really, I can't get over how insignificant I am in the grand scheme of things.

Here is the end to your story. You die. So, yes, I've thought about everything you said above and believe most of it to be true. However, I am completely uneffected by this. It doesn't bother me not one bit. Why? I spent many of my teenage years in solitude just thinking and learning about various things and philosophies. What I learned is you only get one shot in life. Once it's done it's done. Life is about trying to be enjoy yourself as much as possible and spend as little time feeling like crap. So that's what I do.

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Basically, Mass Effect (2) offers an elaborate fantasy in which the player has the power to save the world in his or her own way.

Hate to break it to you but every game does this just in different ways. Some do it better then this game.

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Shepard is the hero I wished I could be back in kindergarten, and both the kid and the adult in me would like to see hundreds of hours and dollars conclude with a happy ending.  Granted, I'll get over it if it doesn't, but still, I'm more likely to play it again if it makes me feel good when I'm done, right?

You are 100% guaranteed a happy ending that will happen 90% of the time. You have nothing to worry about. I do, though. I despise happy endings. Sure when I'm watching most of them I don't care but the vast majority are so ridiculously unrealistic and laced with a Deus Ex Machina that I just facepalm. They don't make me happy at all. They annoy me. I LOVE realistic hard faught endings, those make me very happy. a few examples are DA:O's Ultimate sacrifice, where the only way to save the world is to sacrifice yourself (I treat that as the "canon" ending), Red Dead's ending, and my ending for Heavy Rain (which is similar to Red Dead's, although I enjoyed the perfect ending as well). All this is sounding like I've said this before, I probably have (cursed with a bad memory). ME2's was lame to me because they built it up like it was going to be a hard suicide mission and I didn't lose a single person. Which is lame because that ending happens 99% of the time and is the easiest to get, unless you're a total moron. It should have been flipped. 99% of the time either lots of people die or you fail, 1% you kick ass.

AdmiralCheez wrote...
And if you think this rant is weird, blame Bioware for making a game good enough for me to care this much.  It's hard to get people to care this much about the fate of a few lumps of programming with voices attached.

Actually I find it easy to care about characters in a story be it movie/game/book it just needs to be a well written movie/game/book otherwise I think it's total crap. Oh hi ME2 I didn't see you there.

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Do you think happy endings and No One Left Behinds belong in a game like ME3?  If not, why?  Would you accept that sort of thing if it was optional/difficult to achieve?  How do you want to feel when the credits roll?

Like I said before 100% happy endings ****** me off. No they don't belong in ME3 because they've built this game up as we're fighting ancient machine genocidists that have been killing off advanced aliens for longer then we can imagine. So that means to me that damn near EVERYONE should be dying, dead, or close to it in ME3. If a 100% happy ending was say difficult to the point where only 5% of the players their first run through got it due to making all the right choices throughout the series then yes, otherwise no. When the credits roll I want to feel satisfied with the series and that ME3 wasn't another massive disappointment like ME2 and that it redeemed the series to me and that MAYBE it could actually de-throne ME1 in terms of awesomeness.

Severe boredom caused this large ass post. So thank it for this wall of china.

Interesting that you hate happy endings and view them as the territory of Deus Ex Machina and contrivance.

I view most major character death in mainstream media fiction to be contrived, typically resulting from acts of stupid or hack plot set-pieces transparently arranged to make the death happen. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 08 octobre 2011 - 10:39 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Well heres the thing

When we have bad guys who mainly what they do is kill people, plus much of the ME games is exploring the unknown. So in that sense unknown = danger, plus potential murder is also dangerous.

Why wouldn't the potential death of people you know in game be something that is plausible.

Now main character death wouldn't happen since you are playing as that character (and well always the game over screen). But in order to play with your emotions and because most of the NPCs that you interact with are squadmates, shouldn't any potential danger be involved?

Like take for instance the end of ME 2 where if you wait too long you can lose a sizable portion of your crew, would that be a better alternative to say Bring Down the Sky type level setups?

[jbblue05]

ReconTeam wrote...

You know I just got to a point in Gears of War 3 where a certain character sacrifices himself for the squad. Now as much as people make fun of GoW3 for being the sort of game played by the unwashed masses, I was moved by it. I was actually saddened and was looking for vengeance. I wanted to just chainsaw every last one of those bastards. When a game can get you feeling that, even something rather light on story like GoW3, it has done it's job. If that means you have to make some choices in ME3 that WILL result in some deaths on your squad, so be it.

That scene was EPIC! If ME3 has a scene like that it will make the game a lot better than every body high-fiving each other that no one died

Modifié par jbblue05, 08 octobre 2011 - 10:44 .

[Bekkael]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

If Shep is a mary sue, then almost every RPG character, table-top and computer, is a mary sue.  Let's not dilute the term to meaninglessness. 


EDIT:  And personally, I don't view my RPG characters as self-insertion or wish-fulfilment. 

That's what I think, but it doesn't lessen my enjoyment as long as the writing is well done. I'm not trying to sway you to my opinion by stating my own.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Well heres the thing

When we have bad guys who mainly what they do is kill people, plus much of the ME games is exploring the unknown. So in that sense unknown = danger, plus potential murder is also dangerous.

Why wouldn't the potential death of people you know in game be something that is plausible.

Now main character death wouldn't happen since you are playing as that character (and well always the game over screen). But in order to play with your emotions and because most of the NPCs that you interact with are squadmates, shouldn't any potential danger be involved?

Like take for instance the end of ME 2 where if you wait too long you can lose a sizable portion of your crew, would that be a better alternative to say Bring Down the Sky type level setups?

It's one thing to have the death of squadmates be a risk. 

What several on this thread are asking for is that a "no one left behind" type of ending be Absolutely Impossible, or Come At a Terrible Price.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 08 octobre 2011 - 10:46 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Personally I didn't find the SM more dramatic when someone died, it was an in the moment feeling and I have never felt better having everyone survive. If there was a forced death it would have felt like pretty much every other action game/RPG released in the last decade

I would hope that ME 3 mirrors that instead of the Virmire portion, which ultimately both forced a squadmate to die over the other and forced you to choose. The choice part is an issue because it doesn't feel as genuine.

Virmire was fine for its time, but I would rather see ME 3 go the ME 2 route than the ME 1 route

[Dave of Canada]

 I'm really curious how a few of you feel when playing other RPG games like Dragon Age, Witcher or Alpha Protocol.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 08 octobre 2011 - 11:37 .

[Quething]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Personally I didn't find the SM more dramatic when someone died, it was an in the moment feeling and I have never felt better having everyone survive.

I take a slightly different view. To me "No One Left Behind" felt incredibly cheap and unearned. I achieved it on my first runthrough completely by accident. It made the entire storyline a farce. "Oh noes we're on a suicide mission, I have to wrap up my life's last loose ends before I die! Or, you know, I could just faceroll every merc, Collector and Heretic Geth in the Terminus systems before lunch." Like, why are these people even worried again? For the "best of the best" they seem pretty cowardly and defeatist. At no point did I feel my team or I or humanity itself was ever in any danger, and the so-called Suicide Mission only made it worse.

Of course, on the other side of the coin, DA2's relentless pointless stupid for-its-own-sake tragedy just leaves me eyerolling in at best indifference, and more often contemputous disgust. I do, absolutely, want Cheez' happy ending. I'm not playing this game because it's realistic. I'm playing this game because I like superheroes.

I just hope this time I have to actually work for it a bit.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dave of Canada wrote...

 I'm really curious how a few of you feel when playing other RPG games like Dragon Age, Witcher or Alpha Protocol.

Haven't played The Witcher or Alpha Protocol. 

DA:2 is full of moments in which you feel powerless as a player, because you're simply not given the option of doing the most intelligent, rational, sensible thing.  Hawke is a badass, and yet as a player you're often powerless.  It gets really frustrating.    Or a cutscene happens, and bad things happen while you're forced to sit and watch BioWare's "epic" movie.

[SlottsMachine]

Personally, I'm not a fan of the save X or save a bunch people choices, because they cease to be choice in any meaningful way. I hope Bioware can come up with something better than that.

The save Madison or the tourists decision in Alpha Protocol actually didn't bother me much because Madison was such a boring character in my opinion.

[BlueMagitek]

Ah, I love Alpha Protocol, the Witcher & DA:O. So good. ~_^

Though AP is a bit broken in a few places (Pistol OP, SMG UP, Stealth COMPLETELY BROKEN), but yeah, don't be a hater just because someone feels that a gold ending should be available in a Space Opera.

[Siegdrifa]

Dave of Canada wrote...

 I'm really curious how a few of you feel when playing other RPG games like Dragon Age, Witcher or Alpha Protocol.

What do you mean by "feel" ?
Is it about choice we have to make or mood we are while playing?

[Golden Owl]

Dave of Canada wrote...

 I'm really curious how a few of you feel when playing other RPG games like Dragon Age, Witcher or Alpha Protocol.

One game isn't enough to develop those stronger feelings for a character....Such as I was happy to sacrifice my PC in DA:O....but damned to hell if I would be happy to sacrifice Shep....Over two games a depth has developed with Shep and the supporting NPC's, we become much more involved with those charaters.

[Computer_God91]

jbblue05 wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

You know I just got to a point in Gears of War 3 where a certain character sacrifices himself for the squad. Now as much as people make fun of GoW3 for being the sort of game played by the unwashed masses, I was moved by it. I was actually saddened and was looking for vengeance. I wanted to just chainsaw every last one of those bastards. When a game can get you feeling that, even something rather light on story like GoW3, it has done it's job. If that means you have to make some choices in ME3 that WILL result in some deaths on your squad, so be it.

That scene was EPIC! If ME3 has a scene like that it will make the game a lot better than every body high-fiving each other that no one died

Not when you saw that sacrifice coming from the minute you saw the trailer of the game prior to it's release.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Interesting that you hate happy endings and view them as the territory of Deus Ex Machina and contrivance.

I view most major character death in mainstream media fiction to be contrived, typically resulting from acts of stupid or hack plot set-pieces transparently arranged to make the death happen. 

Seriously though. The majority of movies/games I watch/play I just work out how it'll end from the begining. If I'm not particularly interested in it I'll start the movie/game with a thought along these lines "Well I already know it'll have a happy ending where everything gets fixed no sweat." That is what everyone expects though. Which is boring. I like the end of something to be unpredicable and realistic.

[Warning: Spoilers for Gears 3 and Red Dead follow to illustrate my point, don't read on if you haven't completed those games and want to unspoiled.]

Gears 3's ending was very boring to me because at the end they use their Deus Ex machine to kill both the locust and lambent when the entire series it had no previous mention and the whole series was building up to "We're so f*cked." I honestly wanted to see all the humans lose and be killed off by the lambent or locust, but I knew going in that they'd come up with some B.S. way to just rape everything and sail off into the sunset. Sure this isn't the best example of a bad happy ending because most people don't give Gears points for the story, but it's a story in recent memory that annoyed me.

As for Red Dead you can't honestly say that Marston getting killed is a result of stupid plot-pieces arranged to make his death happen. He had to sacrifice himself because he realized that they'd never stop using him and/or trying to hunt him down so the only way his family would be safe was if he just died.

[End spoilers]

Basically the only way you'll see what I'm talking about is if you read the above.

Modifié par Computer_God91, 09 octobre 2011 - 01:07 .

[Han Shot First]

Squad mate deaths do not equal a sad ending.

[Golden Owl]

Han Shot First wrote...

Squad mate deaths do not equal a sad ending.

That all depends on who, depending on who each one of us favors.

Modifié par Golden Owl, 09 octobre 2011 - 02:05 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Han Shot First wrote...

Squad mate deaths do not equal a sad ending.

So technically, you could get your emotionally weighty ending without nuking your team

[Computer_God91]

Golden Owl wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Squad mate deaths do not equal a sad ending.

That all depends on who.

Garrus.

[AdmiralCheez]

Computer_God91 wrote...

Garrus.

SH*T, MY SECRET'S OUT

THIS THREAD WAS ABOUT GARRUS ALL ALONG

NO NO NOT MY SPACE HUSBANDO

[Golden Owl]

Computer_God91 wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Squad mate deaths do not equal a sad ending.

That all depends on who.

Garrus.

If it was unavoidable (plot death) it would certainly go a long way towards ruining the game for me and have me return it to BW with an unpleasent note.

[Someone With Mass]

Garrus would have to be pretty damn important to go from a friendly guy who just hangs around to someone who suddenly carries the weight of the plot on his shoulders.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Computer_God91 wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Squad mate deaths do not equal a sad ending.

That all depends on who.

Garrus.

It is unavoidable, It is his destiny - garrus like Nihilus are now..death!

[Han Shot First]

Golden Owl wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Squad mate deaths do not equal a sad ending.

That all depends on who, depending on who each one of us favors.

No it doesn't.

If the great civilizations of the galaxy are saved and live on in a golden age of peace and progress, that is a happy ending even if your favorite character dies somewhere along the way.

A bleak or depressing ending is one in which the Reapers either triumph, or manage to cause so much death and destruction that the civilizations of the galaxy go through a dark age that it takes them centuries to recover from.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 09 octobre 2011 - 02:22 .

[TheGreenAlloy]

staindgrey wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

staindgrey wrote...

I'm hoping that ME3 incorporates at least enough death to make the Reaper threat seem very, very real. They're supposed to be galactic extinctionists; I want that to be painfully obvious, especially if they're starting with Earth alone. Saving too many people would make me think, "Really? That's it? Sovereign was blowing smoke out his ass. Overrated."

Oh, I want to feel the gravity of the situation, too.  Just with one caveat: Plot deaths of squadmates can kiss my ass.

There are tons of other ways to make the world feel like it's ending.  Killing the cool guy is just the easiest, and Hollywood's beaten me over the head with it so many times that I need a break.

I can understand that point. I can definitely understand it after the horribly forced death of Dom in Gears 3. That scene still makes me rage.

But at the same time, I dislike how I can save every other squadmate in Gears 3, which again, just seems unrealistic. Not that Gears is anywhere near ME's story telling, but still.

Damn straight.

Being a spectator on a death scene in ME would be helluva lot worse than being a spectator on Gears, though. You basically spectate the characters on the whole Gears series. In ME, your shep doesn't just sit and watch while your squad and/or yourself do and say things you don't agree with.

[AdmiralCheez]

Han Shot First wrote...

No it doesn't.

If the great civilizations of the galaxy are saved and live on in a golden age of peace and progress, that is a happy ending even if your favorite character dies somewhere along the way.

The problem here is that everyone has a different definition of "happy ending" and "good writing."