4309 réponses à ce sujet

[HowlingSiren]

I'm with you, Cheez. I want an ending where I can save all of my squadmates. Not an easy ending, but the possibility should be there. I didn't lose anyone in the Suicide Mission on my first playthrough, but all throughout, I expected I would, and the tension was incredible. That's enough for me. I don't need to see my buddy or my LI die. Emotion can be wrought in without squaddie deaths. For instance, Horizon, where until the very end you don't know whether the VS was abducted or not. The tension is there throughout, particularly if you romanced said VS, and the relief, at least for me, was very satisfying.
That being said, I fully expect characters close to Shepard to die. And I understand how powerful that can be if it's done well. But I'd rather not have a tragi-fest à la DA2 where every 2 minutes something horribly depressing happens to the point it becomes laughable. If killing people close to Shepard is a must, I would prefer if they sacrificed NPCs like Anderson or even Joker, or non-permanent squad members. There is plenty of emotional attachment to be found there too. But with the reduced number of permanent squaddies, I want my Shep to be able to lead them through it all alive, to have a somewhat happy ending in what I'm sure will be a game with plenty of bleak moments.

[TuringPoint]

I plan on having at least 1 happenstance playthrough, maybe. I've tried "orchestrating" deaths for the suicide mission, just wasn't very satisfying.

In spite of DA:O's PC death being very epic, I never stuck with that ending either.

[AdmiralCheez]

Alocormin wrote...

You aren't saying, "don't make it dark, bioware!" right?  That's not the impression I get.

Oh no.  I am fully expecting to have to break out the Kleenex and chocolate half an hour into the game.

[Killjoy Cutter]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Are you really shocked that he considers encouraging civil, level-headed bahavior "wrong and emotional"?

Yes.  Because he's a smart guy who takes the time to goof around with people he doesn't agree with and puts serious thought into his posts, even if he's sometimes a little harsh.

And I don't really like how you're bashing the other side, either.  Nobody's going to agree to anything if all we ever offer each other is mud and acid.

After umpteen pages of being told that not wanting unavoidable squad deaths means that I have emotional issues and no taste, I figure they can take a bit of what they've been dishing out. 

As for Kaiser, I haven't seen much from him on this thread but calling anyone who doesn't agree with him an emotionally immature bunny hugger who doesn't know anything about stories. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Computer_God91 wrote...

The problem is that Mass Effect from the begining has been a dark story about heartless machines that only want to destroy all advanced life in the galaxy. That's straight up dark. I wouldn't want to retreat to a universe like that to feel better about myself.

I can't speak for anyone else, but personally I don't play video games to feel better about myself. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

To be honest, I think auto-killing squadmates to generate drama is just as cheap as knocking the Reapers out of the galaxy without taking a single hit.

Bingo. 

In fact, I'd say that auto-killing squadmates is contrived enough that you need to call it "drama", specifically and deliberately with the quotation marks.  If this were pro wrestling, it would be blatant "cheap heat".

[ZLurps]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
It's less nameless, faceless NPCs when the game gets in your face about it.

Example: Being confronted by a man whose family you just bombed the sh*t out of because you deemed his home colony too overrun by husks to save.  Walking in on Ash almost crying because she just got a message confirming that Sarah didn't make it.  Garrus confronting you when you decide to screw over Palaven in favor of another homeworld, to the point where it comes to screaming, blows, and possibly gunshots.  Hearing a recording like in Tali's loyalty mission ("mommy loves you very much").

This is great! It's how NPC:s are portrayed if players form any sort of connection with them.
I would also like to take other things, envinronements in account. Example: Collector Ship.
There were piles of bodies there and then we saw the pods... but somehow if I compare it to abandoned houses in Fallout 3 which made me pretty damn sad... toys, small beds... Then I'm was a kid on cold war era.

Nyoka wrote...

I think people can't tell drama from
cringeworthy tearjerking melodrama. I very much prefer that Godfather
scene at the end when Michael calmly tells Kay he didn't kill anyone
than that Godfather 3 scene when he sees his daughter dead and starts
howling like a banshee. Also, "consequence" doesn't always mean "death".
That's lack of imagination. Oh look another dead squadmate. Yay.

Yep, when people get hit with very extreme kind of things, like squadmate death, they start defending themself. Death scenes may become distant and irrelevant.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Forced bad outcomes and forced "no good choice" situations are probably the worst immersion breaker for me.

Take
Zaeed's LM for example... it's all contrived around one choice. If you
leave the workers to die, you can't screw up enough for Vido to get
away, you'll always catch him. If you rescue the workers, you cannot
fight hard enough, fast enough, well enough, to ever catch Vido -- you
have no chance at all.

This is IMO good example how not to handle character deaths. Player input is irrelevant, no matter what kind of character you use, or what is the player skill end result is always the same.

What I would like is to make squad survive, yes but make me (or my Shep) earn it. Make it difficult, a challenge like saving the galaxy from the Reapers. They are fantastic villains and we want to defeat them, but it would be stupid if we won them because they run out of batteries of something stupid. No, make it hard, really hard and keeping your squad alive ridiculously hard, but after all let that be one possible outcome of the many.

[wright1978]

[

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Forced bad outcomes and forced "no good choice" situations are probably the worst immersion breaker for me.

Take
Zaeed's LM for example... it's all contrived around one choice. If you
leave the workers to die, you can't screw up enough for Vido to get
away, you'll always catch him. If you rescue the workers, you cannot
fight hard enough, fast enough, well enough, to ever catch Vido -- you
have no chance at all.

Have to disagree. I like the fact Zaeed's loyalty mission is a win-lose scenario which there are very few in ME. It possibly should be on a clock once you make that big choice. The only other problem i have with it is the ending if you save the workers always seems off but that's because Vido should be long gone.

[ZLurps]

wright1978 wrote...

[

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Forced bad outcomes and forced "no good choice" situations are probably the worst immersion breaker for me.

Take
Zaeed's LM for example... it's all contrived around one choice. If you
leave the workers to die, you can't screw up enough for Vido to get
away, you'll always catch him. If you rescue the workers, you cannot
fight hard enough, fast enough, well enough, to ever catch Vido -- you
have no chance at all.

Have to disagree. I like the fact Zaeed's loyalty mission is a win-lose scenario which there are very few in ME. It possibly should be on a clock once you make that big choice. The only other problem i have with it is the ending if you save the workers always seems off but that's because Vido should be long gone.

I'm not trying to be hostile or anything, but would you explain what makes it work for you? For me it was that I got this sudden realisation "Oh... So it's scripted" and that kind of things can be immersion breaking for me. That also led me to wonder the same thing as you. Vido should be long gone if player choose to rescue the workes.

[wright1978]

ZLurps wrote...

I'm not trying to be hostile or anything, but would you explain what makes it work for you? For me it was that I got this sudden realisation "Oh... So it's scripted" and that kind of things can be immersion breaking for me. That also led me to wonder the same thing as you. Vido should be long gone if player choose to rescue the workes.

Vido should have been long gone but it was donehow it wasdone for dramatic effect. Like Bobba fett flying off with Han solo at the end of Empire strikes back. I liked the misison because there was a tough choice. Go after the bad guy or save the innocents. I also liked the N7 mission where you had to choose whether to let Batarian missile hit colony or spaceport. I guess for me it's about choices that make you think rather than letting you have your cake and eating it too.

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

You don't have to worry man. Bioware will make it as hard to get a fail ending as it was in ME2 (where you had to actively TRY to get people killed... seriously, it was waaaay to easy to win for a "suicide mission"). Sunshine and bunnies are on your horizon bro.

[FeralEwok]

Other than Kaiden or Ashley in ME1 and the red shirts who die in the first mission, has Bioware forced any other deaths of characters in their games? I cant remember of any but I have not played Baldur's Gates, Jade Empire, or Neverwinter nights.

[Kaiser Shepard]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Well yeah, that's what I do: judge people based on their flaws, in this case your being wrong and emotional.

Ummm... no?  I wasn't?  I was just saying it's not okay to hate on people just because they're being fantarded.

It's hardly "hating on", and even then we do the same with the Talimancers and similar fanatics.

[Computer_God91]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Computer_God91 wrote...

The problem is that Mass Effect from the begining has been a dark story about heartless machines that only want to destroy all advanced life in the galaxy. That's straight up dark. I wouldn't want to retreat to a universe like that to feel better about myself.

I can't speak for anyone else, but personally I don't play video games to feel better about myself.

lol, niether do I. Cheez does apparently, that's what I was refering too.

AdmiralCheez wrote...
I can't pick up and read Killer Angels just to have some fun and escape my everyday woes.

That's what I got from that line right there.

Modifié par Computer_God91, 09 octobre 2011 - 05:44 .

[Computer_God91]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Without death of squadmates.

Okay, so let's say you have to visit this city that's been leveled by the Reapers.  As you travel through it, you see all the death and destruction that has happened, and survivors keep looking at you like it's somehow your fault.  Or there's the opening level of ME3, where you see the kid you met five minutes ago make it safely onto a transport... only to get vaporized by a Reaper laser.  Or perhaps some big plan blows up in your face, and you see your squad completely lose hope because you simply don't have any real way to fight back.

Sure that makes things seem dark, but none of that would carry any emotional weight for me. Burned out city where survivors blame me? Wasn't my fault I was busy trying to save EVERYONE. When I saw the video with the kid in it and then later read that he gets into a ship and gets killed I thought "Well that sucks." Plan blowing up in my face wouldn't have weight to me either cause I know its a story and they'll throw another in my face in a couple of minutes. I don't know how any of that would effect you but none of that would make me feel anything. Death of characters I know has the power to make me feel something.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Computer_God91 wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Without death of squadmates.

Okay, so let's say you have to visit this city that's been leveled by the Reapers.  As you travel through it, you see all the death and destruction that has happened, and survivors keep looking at you like it's somehow your fault.  Or there's the opening level of ME3, where you see the kid you met five minutes ago make it safely onto a transport... only to get vaporized by a Reaper laser.  Or perhaps some big plan blows up in your face, and you see your squad completely lose hope because you simply don't have any real way to fight back.

Sure that makes things seem dark, but none of that would carry any emotional weight for me. Burned out city where survivors blame me? Wasn't my fault I was busy trying to save EVERYONE. When I saw the video with the kid in it and then later read that he gets into a ship and gets killed I thought "Well that sucks." Plan blowing up in my face wouldn't have weight to me either cause I know its a story and they'll throw another in my face in a couple of minutes. I don't know how any of that would effect you but none of that would make me feel anything. Death of characters I know has the power to make me feel something.

You're not the only one who has said that deaths outside the squad and important NPCs in Shep's life / story won't have any effect on them. 

Should the rest of us have to play through a plot-enforced DA2-style tragifest in space because of that? 

(And kinda ironic that we're the ones being called emotionally stunted and immature...)

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 09 octobre 2011 - 07:19 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Computer_God91 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Computer_God91 wrote...

The problem is that Mass Effect from the begining has been a dark story about heartless machines that only want to destroy all advanced life in the galaxy. That's straight up dark. I wouldn't want to retreat to a universe like that to feel better about myself.

I can't speak for anyone else, but personally I don't play video games to feel better about myself.

lol, niether do I. Cheez does apparently, that's what I was refering too.

AdmiralCheez wrote...
I can't pick up and read Killer Angels just to have some fun and escape my everyday woes.

That's what I got from that line right there.

That's not really a matter of her feeling better about herself. 

[Computer_God91]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

You're not the only one who has said that deaths outside the squad and important NPCs in Shep's life / story won't have any effect on them. 

Should the rest of us have to play through a plot-enforced DA2-style tragifest in space because of that? 

(And kinda ironic that we're the one's being called emotionally stunted and immature...)

No, DA2 was just a bad game. I already said that there doesn't have to be plot enforced deaths and provided a compromise that obviously nobody read. Have you been reading what I've been saying?

[Murova]

I think it should be possible, but to not cheapen it, it should be very hard. In ME2 it was very easy.

Like very hard. Make it feel like an actual achievement.

Modifié par Murova, 09 octobre 2011 - 06:17 .

[Computer_God91]

Murova wrote...

I think it should be possible, but to not cheapen it, it should be very hard. In ME2 it was very easy.

Like very hard. Make it feel like an actual achievement.

They should make it as hard as it was to get shepard killed in ME2. I had to do three playthroughs to get him killed.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Without death of squadmates.

Okay,
so let's say you have to visit this city that's been leveled by the
Reapers.  As you travel through it, you see all the death and
destruction that has happened, and survivors keep looking at you like
it's somehow your fault.  Or there's the opening level of ME3, where you
see the kid you met five minutes ago make it safely onto a transport...
only to get vaporized by a Reaper laser.  Or perhaps some big plan
blows up in your face, and you see your squad completely lose hope
because you simply don't have any real way to fight back.

That is all nice and true. But where is the personal loss in this?

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
You're not the only one who has said that deaths outside the squad and important NPCs in Shep's life / story won't have any effect on them. 

Should the rest of us have to play through a plot-enforced DA2-style tragifest in space because of that? 

(And kinda ironic that we're the one's being called emotionally stunted and immature...)

Who said anything about using DA2 as a model`.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 09 octobre 2011 - 06:24 .

[Wulfram]

FeralEwok wrote...

Other than Kaiden or Ashley in ME1 and the red shirts who die in the first mission, has Bioware forced any other deaths of characters in their games? I cant remember of any but I have not played Baldur's Gates, Jade Empire, or Neverwinter nights.

In BG2 and Jade Empire, yes.

[AdmiralCheez]

Computer_God91 wrote...

Sure that makes things seem dark, but none of that would carry any emotional weight for me. Burned out city where survivors blame me? Wasn't my fault I was busy trying to save EVERYONE. When I saw the video with the kid in it and then later read that he gets into a ship and gets killed I thought "Well that sucks." Plan blowing up in my face wouldn't have weight to me either cause I know its a story and they'll throw another in my face in a couple of minutes. I don't know how any of that would effect you but none of that would make me feel anything. Death of characters I know has the power to make me feel something.

Then you're pretty emotionally dead.

[AdmiralCheez]

Lizardviking wrote...

That is all nice and true. But where is the personal loss in this?

Because it's your fault.  YOU caused all the pain and suffering, YOU failed, and YOU couldn't save the day.

[Computer_God91]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Computer_God91 wrote...

Sure that makes things seem dark, but none of that would carry any emotional weight for me. Burned out city where survivors blame me? Wasn't my fault I was busy trying to save EVERYONE. When I saw the video with the kid in it and then later read that he gets into a ship and gets killed I thought "Well that sucks." Plan blowing up in my face wouldn't have weight to me either cause I know its a story and they'll throw another in my face in a couple of minutes. I don't know how any of that would effect you but none of that would make me feel anything. Death of characters I know has the power to make me feel something.

Then you're pretty emotionally dead.

Because I don't give a crap about people I've never met before, that makes me emotionally dead?

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

That is all nice and true. But where is the personal loss in this?

Because it's your fault.  YOU caused all the pain and suffering, YOU failed, and YOU couldn't save the day.

How was anything you listed the players fault? All that is because of the Reapers, not you. You've been trying to warn everyone about this for years and nobody wanted to listen.

Modifié par Computer_God91, 09 octobre 2011 - 06:58 .