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AdmiralCheez wrote...
Because it's your fault. YOU caused all the pain and suffering, YOU failed, and YOU couldn't save the day.Lizardviking wrote...
That is all nice and true. But where is the personal loss in this?
Soooo, when that tsunami hit Japan, and you saw the footage of that massive wave demolishing everything in its path, you felt nothing?Computer_God91 wrote...
Because I don't give a crap about people I've never met before, that makes me emotionally dead?
Because had you have been smarter, faster, more prepared, seen the clues ahead of time, maybe you could have saved that kid or that city. Maybe your plan would have gone right had you caught the red herrings before it was too late.How was anything you listed the players fault. All that is because of the Reapers, not you. You've been trying to warn everyone about this for years and nobody wanted to listen.
Let me tell you a story.Lizardviking wrote...
Don't get me wrong. I would like a scene like that in the game, but there needs to be more than that. Something that affects us on a deeper level, an actual person we know and care about.
This is more or less what my Shepard felt about Arrival.Because had you have been smarter, faster, more prepared, seen the clues ahead of time, maybe you could have saved that kid or that city. Maybe your plan would have gone right had you caught the red herrings before it was too late.
Precisely.GeneralSlotts193 wrote...
Like if some migrant ships get blown up, seeing Tali utterly devastated by it and feeling helpless because there isn't anything you can do about it.
AdmiralCheez wrote...
Let me tell you a story.Lizardviking wrote...
Don't get me wrong. I would like a scene like that in the game, but there needs to be more than that. Something that affects us on a deeper level, an actual person we know and care about.
I was really close to my grandmother. When she died, I was a little relieved that she wasn't suffering anymore.
It was seeing my mom cry that broke my heart.
Maybe you empathize differently, but when I see someone I care about trying to cope with a loss, it affects me more than if I take a loss personally.
The problem with your example is that it WASN'T personal. You were watching other people struggle, It wasn't personal because it was someone else's story.Lizardviking wrote...
You need to create a balance. We need to see the impact the invasion has on a larger scale by seeing all the soldiers who have lost hope, to the civilians mourning their losses. But we also need to experience it on a personal level.
AdmiralCheez wrote...
The problem with your example is that it WASN'T personal. You were watching other people struggle, It wasn't personal because it was someone else's story.Lizardviking wrote...
You need to create a balance. We need to see the impact the invasion has on a larger scale by seeing all the soldiers who have lost hope, to the civilians mourning their losses. But we also need to experience it on a personal level.
Mass Effect is YOUR story. It throws you into the middle of the mess. You experience it through Shepard's eyes. The rules are a bit different.
And again, we're not going to agree on what's "personal." A party member dies, I'm like, "god damn it, there goes my sentinel." A party member breaks down, and I'm like "ffffffff damn it Bioware, you enjoy turning me into a blubbering idiot!"
It just means the rules are a bit different. You have to account for the crazy bastard steering Shepard around. A movie is exactly the same for everyone that watches it.Lizardviking wrote...
What? Just because because it wasn't interactive does not mean it was more personal.
Problem is, making it uber-depressing cuts in on its replay value. Very few people enjoy putting themselves in a horrible mood on purpose, artistic value be damned.And if anything. If it is YOUR story then it will only make the whole situation feel even more devastating!
Just saying, death pisses me off (hence I ride the spacebar through Virmire, blah blah stupid plot event trying to up the drama, blah blah this is so goddamn forced what is the damn point blah blah). Suffering is what breaks my heart. After all, dead people can't feel any pain; it just sucks that you'll never see them again and the world has lost such a wonderful person.And your the one calling someone else heartless?
Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 09 octobre 2011 - 07:46 .
I honestly did not care about the prisoner. The quarian got to me though.AdmiralCheez wrote...
Precisely.GeneralSlotts193 wrote...
Like if some migrant ships get blown up, seeing Tali utterly devastated by it and feeling helpless because there isn't anything you can do about it.
I don't know about you, but watching that prisoner being beaten and the quarian scientist leaving that messge for her kid right before the geth killed her impacted me way the hell more than Virmire.
And I did do a run where I killed squadmates on purpose. I didn't feel any loss or whatever; I felt like a jerk.
AdmiralCheez wrote...
It just means the rules are a bit different. You have to account for the crazy bastard steering Shepard around. A movie is exactly the same for everyone that watches it.Lizardviking wrote...
What? Just because because it wasn't interactive does not mean it was more personal.Problem is, making it uber-depressing cuts in on its replay value. Very few people enjoy putting themselves in a horrible mood on purpose, artistic value be damned.And if anything. If it is YOUR story then it will only make the whole situation feel even more devastating!
Just saying, death pisses me off (hence I ride the spacebar through Virmire, blah blah stupid plot event trying to up the drama, blah blah this is so goddamn forced what is the damn point blah blah). Suffering is what breaks my heart. After all, dead people can't feel any pain; it just sucks that you'll never see them again and the world has lost such a wonderful person.And your the one calling someone else heartless?
But suffering? Suffering is pointless and cruel, and you have to see and feel that pain. Suffering is nasty because you should be able to fix it, but can't.
Yep. It all comes down to a difference in opinion. Things like "literary value" and "emotional impact" can neve be quantified objectively. They are matters of taste. It's equally useless debating which ice cream flavor is the best; the only difference is when you talk about professional storytelling, some intellectual nut has decided to make it a major field of study.Lizardviking wrote...
And here is where we hit our deadlock.
Fffff I should know what language that is because I half-understand it.If you feel sad when playing ME3 and losing a character that you care about. The only tihng I can I can recomend is a small dose of "Casper og Mandrilaftalen" !
AdmiralCheez wrote...
Fffff I should know what language that is because I half-understand it.If you feel sad when playing ME3 and losing a character that you care about. The only tihng I can I can recomend is a small dose of "Casper og Mandrilaftalen" !
So... it's Denmark's answer to Monty Python?Lizardviking wrote...
Danish and english are from the "germansk" part of language. Only natural that they will have some similarities.
But admit it. You thought they were funny and will continue to watch it.
Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 09 octobre 2011 - 08:31 .
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
AdmiralCheez wrote...
I was really close to my grandmother. When she died, I was a little relieved that she wasn't suffering anymore.
It was seeing my mom cry that broke my heart.
Maybe you empathize differently, but when I see someone I care about trying to cope with a loss, it affects me more than if I take a loss personally.
AdmiralCheez wrote...
So... it's Denmark's answer to Monty Python?Lizardviking wrote...
Danish and english are from the "germansk" part of language. Only natural that they will have some similarities.
But admit it. You thought they were funny and will continue to watch it.
I can roll with that.
EDIT: It's the German-ish bits that I understood. I kind of sort of know German, to the point where I can roughly understand it but can't speak it worth a damn. Waaay out of practice.
AdmiralCheez wrote...
Yep. It all comes down to a difference in opinion. Things like "literary value" and "emotional impact" can neve be quantified objectively. They are matters of taste. It's equally useless debating which ice cream flavor is the best; the only difference is when you talk about professional storytelling, some intellectual nut has decided to make it a major field of study.
But seriously, I maintain my position that it is better to have more options than less. The player should focus on his or her individual experience, not someone else's, and they shouldn't try to dictate what is best for someone else's gameplay style. Because, you know, it's a single-player game. And because each experience is different from player to player, Bioware needs to account for what will best impress a wide variety of audiences. That's what makes it so damn good, and that's why we keep coming back to discuss it. Imagine how much appeal would be lost if everyone HAD to be a renegade default Sheploo soldier that killed Wrex and saved Ashley. Imagine how little there would be to distinguish it from other games if the player couldn't influence the story being told.
I like being able to keep my squad alive, you like being kicked in the balls. So let's have both. Despite what you may think, it's possible. We just have to avoid making an NOLB so damn easy to obtain this time around.
wright1978 wrote...
ZLurps wrote...
I'm not trying to be hostile or anything, but would you explain what makes it work for you? For me it was that I got this sudden realisation "Oh... So it's scripted" and that kind of things can be immersion breaking for me. That also led me to wonder the same thing as you. Vido should be long gone if player choose to rescue the workes.
Vido should have been long gone but it was donehow it wasdone for dramatic effect. Like Bobba fett flying off with Han solo at the end of Empire strikes back. I liked the misison because there was a tough choice. Go after the bad guy or save the innocents. I also liked the N7 mission where you had to choose whether to let Batarian missile hit colony or spaceport. I guess for me it's about choices that make you think rather than letting you have your cake and eating it too.
Modifié par ZLurps, 09 octobre 2011 - 09:03 .
I don't know. I kind of liked both endings about equally for different reasons. If you let Balak go, there's the guilt of just letting him walk, but Kate and Simon are both there, both safe, and even though they're shaken at what they've had to endure and the people they've lost, they made it. I was fulfilled because I knew I did good, even if it was only temporary.Saphra Deden wrote...
I'm the same way and I like the Paragon ending to Bring Down the Sky more than the Renegade one precisely because see how the loss of Kate's brother affects her. Simon's reaction to losing the miners isn't the same. It is obvious he cares, but he still manages to be more... stoic about it. He's more angry than devestated. Kate, as I recall, loses her composure a little.
I suppose the level of immersion varies from player to player. I can never completely take myself out of Shepard's shoes. And I don't get satisfaction from watching bad things happen in videogames, I get motivation. I try a little harder to make things better when it's clear how bad things are.That said, Shepard is not me, so I would get just as much satisfaction seeing Shepard mourn the loss of the hostages or whomever.
And that's why Ruthless is my favorite background. Most opportunity for depth in roleplay. The renegade perspective sees it as proof that tough calls are going to be made and bad things are going to happen, and you have to be able to deal with it. The paragon perspective sees it as a mistake that needs to be made up for, a price that is paid when one's values are taken out of the equation. Well, that's how I do it, anyway.A favorite scene from Shepard of my mine is the interview on the shuttle after you escape Lazarus station. If Shepard was at Torfan the Renegade response when asked about what he did there shows that's still got lingering emotional pain from it. It's subtle, in his voice and the grimace on his face.
"I sent a lot of good soldiers to their deaths..."
Grimace.
"That's how it had to be."
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Nina88 wrote...
I'm with you, Cheez. I want an ending where I can save all of my squadmates.
You CAN get what you want...
"My first time through the game, I saved Wrex's particular sidequest
(namely, recovering his family's armor) for later, near the end of the
game. The specific reasons for this escape me at the moment. Still,
though, I really, really liked Wrex; I appreciated how he embodied the
angry mercenary archetype, but also had an incredibly sad quality to him
as the last of a dying species. When he pulled his gun on me, I was
surprised, and taken aback.
---
As I don't want to hurt Wrex, I choose the charm option. I move the analog stick up, hit A, and -- crap.
I hit the wrong dialogue choice. My fault, stupid mistake. Still,
though, I end up asking him to calm down and wait a second; I didn't
charm him, but I pretty much did the next best thing. So, my
character asks Wrex to calm the hell down. Wrex just gets angrier. His
voice raises, he begins to threaten the player, and BLAM.Wrex falls to the ground, dead.
---
It's important to understand that when Wrex died, I actually shouted
"NO!" Wrex was my single favorite character and, despite (or perhaps
because of) his flaws, he meant a great deal to me. I'd wanted to talk
my way out of the situation and Ashley, that huge ****, had
cold-bloodedly shot him in the back. Now, I've enjoyed many emotional
moments in many games, but never before had I experienced a scene so
shocking that I actually yelled out loud in shock and horror. That was
the power of Wrex's murder.
But still, it only happened by accident; I felt compelled to load my last save and redo the conversation.The
second time around, I actually succeeded in choosing the charm option.
Rather than raising his voice, Wrex paused for a moment, considered what
I said, and peacefully put his gun away. The game continued. He was
still alive. I was bored."
Modifié par Saphra Deden, 09 octobre 2011 - 09:01 .
And I'm not saying there SHOULDN'T be that moment of helplessness. The thing is, it doesn't have to be the part where Liara gets blown up. There are other ways to do it, and in my opinion they're more creative than just saying LOL VIRMIRE TIME KIDS.Lizardviking wrote...
I agree we shouldn't strip away player choices... For the most of the time.
In a game where choice is key. Then having that one moment of helplessness is even stronger, that one moment where there is nothing you can do to change the outcome. Sorry, but sometimes you shouldn't be able to take a third option. Sometimes you should face the no-win scenario.
Which is why there SHOULD be a compromise in ME3. I felt that the way the Suicide Mission was handled in ME2 was appropriate because it emphasizes being a good commander and caring about your team, plus it rewarded you for playing your cards right with more potential allies to be there and back you up in ME3. ME3, because it's the end and because we're playing with things bigger than just infiltrating a base, should be heavier, more difficult, and more wrought with compromise and moral ambiguity.Problem is. The fact that a NOLB is not a compromise. No matter how hard it is to get to get. Being able to save them destroys the purpose behind the other versions of the story.
That's a little extreme. Something more appropriate would be the loss of a stronghold (and those defending it), the death of someone that squadmate cares about, or allowing the current batch of bad guys to get away with whatever they're doing because you doubled back instead of pursuing them (IE, Cerberus gets the spiffy prothean artifact instead of you, you lose intel, and you have to deal with their new BFG in the final battle).Unless there is a severe penatly for saving them. Like letting the Reapers win because you forsaked the mission in favor of saving your squadmate.
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