4309 réponses à ce sujet

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

"But still, it only happened by accident; I felt compelled to load my last save and redo the conversation.The
second time around, I actually succeeded in choosing the charm option.
Rather than raising his voice, Wrex paused for a moment, considered what
I said, and peacefully put his gun away. The game continued. He was
still alive. I was bored."

Meeting Wrex again on Tuchanka has the same emotional impact as him getting shot on Virmire.  It's just in the opposite direction.  It's a valid alternative that left an equivalent impression on me.  Think of all the people who "cried manly tears" at that reunion and hail it as the best part of ME2.

It's just as powerful as watching Wrex die.  Which is as it should be.

Usually, I save the Council.  One time, I didn't.  That cutscene where I watch the Fifth Fleet just fly by as the Destiny Ascension takes it up the ass, followed by Udina's psychotic speech afterwards, left a lasting impression on me.  I was actually muttering "holy sh*t" under my breath the whole time.

But does that invalidate all the times I saved the Council?  Hell no!  Because that rush of energy I get seeing Joker and Hackett fly in and kick ass, and the reward of the Council finally respecting me (temporarily, anyway), provides a glorious F*CK YEAH that lasts long enough to be completely satisfying.

Emotional power doesn't have to be negative, and those that don't appreciate being happy probably have something wrong with them.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 09 octobre 2011 - 09:17 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Nina88 wrote...

I'm with you, Cheez. I want an ending where I can save all of my squadmates.

You only think that's what you want.

You CAN get what you want...

"My first time through the game, I saved Wrex's particular sidequest
(namely, recovering his family's armor) for later, near the end of the
game. The specific reasons for this escape me at the moment. Still,
though, I really, really liked Wrex; I appreciated how he embodied the
angry mercenary archetype, but also had an incredibly sad quality to him
as the last of a dying species. When he pulled his gun on me, I was
surprised, and taken aback.

---

As I don't want to hurt Wrex, I choose the charm option. I move the analog stick up, hit A, and -- crap.
I hit the wrong dialogue choice. My fault, stupid mistake. Still,
though, I end up asking him to calm down and wait a second; I didn't
charm him, but I pretty much did the next best thing. So, my
character asks Wrex to calm the hell down. Wrex just gets angrier. His
voice raises, he begins to threaten the player, and BLAM.Wrex falls to the ground, dead.

---

It's important to understand that when Wrex died, I actually shouted
"NO!" Wrex was my single favorite character and, despite (or perhaps
because of) his flaws, he meant a great deal to me. I'd wanted to talk
my way out of the situation and Ashley, that huge ****, had
cold-bloodedly shot him in the back. Now, I've enjoyed many emotional
moments in many games, but never before had I experienced a scene so
shocking that I actually yelled out loud in shock and horror. That was
the power of Wrex's murder. 

But still, it only happened by accident; I felt compelled to load my last save and redo the conversation.The
second time around, I actually succeeded in choosing the charm option.
Rather than raising his voice, Wrex paused for a moment, considered what
I said, and peacefully put his gun away. The game continued. He was
still alive. I was bored."

Replace Wrex with Ashley/Kaidan and I agree with you.

Virmire
was good. You could avoid killing Wrex and have him still live by the
end of the day. But no matter what, you will lose someone here.

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Usually, I save the Council.  One time, I didn't.  That cutscene where I watch the Fifth Fleet just fly by as the Destiny Ascension takes it up the ass, followed by Udina's psychotic speech afterwards, left a lasting impression on me.  I was actually muttering "holy sh*t" under my breath the whole time.

Ehh. ME2 killed the council choice for me. But that is another discussion.

[Dave of Canada]

I doubt it's going to happen and you're going to get your way but you can still be "happy" with a cost attached, imagine the emotion of having your love interest (assuming he/she is military or has military training) being sent out on recon and gets shot down in heavy Reaper territory. I doubt you're going to sit there and take it, I'm pretty sure most players would be yelling "WE HAVE TO GO SAVE THEM".

Imagine the scene playing out exactly like how the player is feeling, you have an irrational Shepard who wants to send the fleet in and rescue one lone man (or maybe a small team) because of their personal feelings and the Admirals in charge are telling you to calm the hell down as you're risking more than just your love interest's life.

Do you agree with them or are you stubborn about it? Do you take the entire fleet to go save them, risking the lives of those under your command because you can't let go or do you abandon your love interest for the greater good of the universe?

If you decided to abandon them, imagine having dialogues where Shepard can lash out at others. Scolding Hackett for sending Kaidan out to die, telling the Turian Admirals to shove it for trapping Garrus there, having other companions like Vega tell you sorry for the loss. You might feel horrible but you've got the fleet and you've got entire content around that decision.

Now you reload and save them, you drag the fleet (if you charmed/intimiated them) over and they're being destroyed as you take the Hammerhead down to the surface and fight through Husks and indoctrinated soldiers to your love interest's downed shuttle.

As you rescue them, you realize the fleet is taking heavy casualties and they're trying to retreat and you head over to the Normandy which is staying for a short while before being forced to evacuate without you. You arrive onboard the Normandy and you hear about the casualties being high, Hackett/Somebody else important is MIA and you get to hear the entire fleet question your judgement.

Maybe that's just me but having such things things play out would be a thousand times more interesting than Shepard never having to make tough calls or risk losing people without consequence. We're at war, there shouldn't be any happy endings.

Make your own happy endings, does Shepard care about all the dead soldiers and the fleet questioning your judgement if it means seeing Garrus / Kaidan / Jacob / Miranda / Ashley / ect again?

[Someone With Mass]

Lizardviking wrote...

Ehh. ME2 killed the council choice for me. But that is another discussion.

Psst...

You will be able to talk to the human Council in ME3. 

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I would say it is one of the best episodes in the series so far.

It's up there, but I kind of like the Suicide Mission better.  Killer level design, great music, and the whole damn thing is a massive adrenaline rush for me regardless of who lives or dies.

Squadmates don't need to die in every act, but having them survive the entire narrative? No, that's stupid. I don't want this to be a Star  Trek TV series where the main cast is a clique and nothing ever happens to them. Characters should be killed off when doing so benefits the story and/or other characters, and/or when their archs are complete.

That's your opinion.  Me?  I like Star Trek.  I like seeing the good guys win, and I'd rather see charcters evolve as the story progresses.  Death of main characters isn't some horrible evil, but it's fun for me to be able to take the typical "rules" of drama and f*ck 'em.  Cheap or not, I am goddamn awesome, and nobody else should care because this particular incarnation of the story is for me, not them.

Garrus in my opinion should have died on the Suicide Mission no matter what. He has no place left to go. Nothing left to do. His continual buddying around with Shepard has stunted his character. Him dying on the suicide mission would have been awesome. He could have reuinted with his old squad whilst sacrificing himself to save his new team and the galaxy. That's the kind of ending he deserves. It would have been an amazing one.

I disagree.  Garrus has a lot of growing to do as a character.  He still lacks the confidence in himself to stand up on his own, to define his own morals, to be strong without Shepard's guidance.  He needs to tie up things with his family, to stop hiding from them because he can't make his mom get better and will never be the man his father wants him to be.  His arc is hardly complete; Omega was just a step in realizing who he is, and Sidonis was only a turning point.

You may think death was the best thing that could happen to him.  I say he's not ready to die, not yet, because he still hasn't found himself.

I don't have any problem with that. That's great. That means the story is working. Bad things should happen to motivate you to do better in the future. The point is, you shouldn't always succeed.

And I don't plan on it.  Keeping half a dozen people alive is a very small victory compared to saving the whole damn galaxy, and Shepard's friends may be the only thing positive in her life.  She needs their strength as much as they need hers, and they owe it to each other to finish this thing they way they started it: together.  That's how I want my story arc to end: no matter how bad things get, there will be someone there for you, and so long as you're not alone, there's a bit of light in the darkness.

Pardon the song lyrics, but:

I need you to recover because I can't make it on my own.

They didn't make me the Admiral of Cheeziness for nothin'.

Indeed. Is Shepard grimacing because he had to do his job and secretly it weighs heavily on him? Or is it because he let his emotions and bloodlust take over and he's ashamed? It is somewhat ambiguous and so it's whatever you want it to be.

And that makes it DELICIOUS!  RUTHLESS FOR EVERYONE!

[Xilizhra]

And that makes it DELICIOUS! RUTHLESS FOR EVERYONE!

I considered it, but I'd probably only have it for a Shepard who doesn't want to romance Liara because she doesn't feel anyone should dive into her mind. So I don't have any for now.

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The point was how it affected ME1, not ME2.

And since I see them as part of the same entity, I can't really seperate the narratives incredibly well.  The first time I played 'em, it was back to back, and that sort of left a lasting impression on me.

But I think choosing the less immediately impactful option in chapter one is okay if it means a stronger impact in chapter two.  I also think the reverse is true, since chapter two presents its own opportunities.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Ehh. ME2 killed the council choice for me. But that is another discussion.

Psst...

You will be able to talk to the human Council in ME3. 

Doesn't change how poorly they handled that one in ME2, though.

[Someone With Mass]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Doesn't change how poorly they handled that one in ME2, though.

As if the original Council wasn't.

[AdmiralCheez]

Xilizhra wrote...

I considered it, but I'd probably only have it for a Shepard who doesn't want to romance Liara because she doesn't feel anyone should dive into her mind. So I don't have any for now.

Eh, one of my ruthless ladies romanced Liara.  I think she accidentally leached a little of that ruthlessness off her, hence the whole Ilium what-the-f*ckery.  But my other ruthless lady (an earthborn) was determined to keep Liara way the hell away because she didn't want people digging into her past.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Saphra Deden wrote...

That's your opinion.  Me?  I like Star Trek.

Star Trek sucks and so does your opinion.

Also I never said anything about the good guys not winning or characters neve evolving. (Since when do characters in Star Trek evolve?)

Hey hey. Star trek gave us gold like Wrath of Khan.

Also didn't you hate LOTR?

Modifié par Lizardviking, 09 octobre 2011 - 09:59 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

It is all bark and no bite.

Tell that to the heart attack I almost had when the doors wouldn't close.  NO LEGION NO oh you're fine okay gotta pause the game jesusmotherf*ckingchrist I need to lie down...

Star Trek sucks and so does your opinion.

Oh, you!

Also I never said anything about the good guys not winning or characters neve evolving. (Since when do characters in Star Trek evolve?)

They don't, really.  I was just stating what I like.  I didn't really mean to imply that Star Trek had dynamic characters or that you didn't like good guys winning.

[Xilizhra]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I considered it, but I'd probably only have it for a Shepard who doesn't want to romance Liara because she doesn't feel anyone should dive into her mind. So I don't have any for now.

Eh, one of my ruthless ladies romanced Liara.  I think she accidentally leached a little of that ruthlessness off her, hence the whole Ilium what-the-f*ckery.  But my other ruthless lady (an earthborn) was determined to keep Liara way the hell away because she didn't want people digging into her past.

I admit that I'm tempted to play a Renegade-leaning ruthless Shepard (who still does romance Liara, because it's Liara), but I'm having some difficulty with that because I still can't stomach a lot of major Renegade decisions. The worst thing I can see her doing is killing Anoleis and Gianna on Noveria.

[Reever]

Hmm, yeah. A Ruthless One played as Paragon/Paragade - thought about it, might not have the time for the playthrough though :/ (sure as hell not before ME3´s coming out!).

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I considered it, but I'd probably only have it for a Shepard who doesn't want to romance Liara because she doesn't feel anyone should dive into her mind. So I don't have any for now.

Eh, one of my ruthless ladies romanced Liara.  I think she accidentally leached a little of that ruthlessness off her, hence the whole Ilium what-the-f*ckery.  But my other ruthless lady (an earthborn) was determined to keep Liara way the hell away because she didn't want people digging into her past.

I admit that I'm tempted to play a Renegade-leaning ruthless Shepard (who still does romance Liara, because it's Liara), but I'm having some difficulty with that because I still can't stomach a lot of major Renegade decisions. The worst thing I can see her doing is killing Anoleis and Gianna on Noveria.

You could also just rat out the corrupt hanar shop-keeper to get your security card. By far the fastest way to get it.

And what is wrong by just intemidating Lorik?

[RoseLegion]

I like the idea of a ten percent chance, or to say it another way having many possible outcomes some completely fatal and others unscathed (or nearly so) makes the game worth playing over again for me. The differing paragon/renegade choices and the continued world effects are pillars of why I'm currently playing through ME1 *again*. I think including an ending where "everyone lives" would be a great aspect, tho for my own personal enjoyment I'd want it to be hard to get and honestly I'd want it (again for my personal enjoyment) to be something that required the right set of choices from ME1/2 to even have a shot at. I'd list some examples of the types of "you need either X or Y to pull this off" but I'm avoiding spoilers.

All that being said however I won't raise any complaints if we're faced with choices like in ME1 and sometimes you just can't save *everyone*. From a game play standpoint for me the most satisfying implementation would probably be a blending of the methods used in the end of ME1 & 2. End of the day the story has been well executed so far and I'm just interested in seeing how it ends

[Xilizhra]

Lizardviking wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I considered it, but I'd probably only have it for a Shepard who doesn't want to romance Liara because she doesn't feel anyone should dive into her mind. So I don't have any for now.

Eh, one of my ruthless ladies romanced Liara.  I think she accidentally leached a little of that ruthlessness off her, hence the whole Ilium what-the-f*ckery.  But my other ruthless lady (an earthborn) was determined to keep Liara way the hell away because she didn't want people digging into her past.

I admit that I'm tempted to play a Renegade-leaning ruthless Shepard (who still does romance Liara, because it's Liara), but I'm having some difficulty with that because I still can't stomach a lot of major Renegade decisions. The worst thing I can see her doing is killing Anoleis and Gianna on Noveria.

You could also just rat out the corrupt hanar shop-keeper to get your security card. By far the fastest way to get it.

And what is wrong by just intemidating Lorik?

That's not my main problem. I can't kill the rachni queen, I can't kill the Feros colonists, I can't kill the Council... I don't know, maybe I'd be able to justify pyjak slaughter on Eletania, considering the poisonous atmosphere.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Doesn't change how poorly they handled that one in ME2, though.

As if the original Council wasn't.

Didn't say it wasn't, but at least they were there.

AdmiralCheez wrote...

But my other ruthless lady (an earthborn) was determined to keep Liara way the hell away because she didn't want people digging into her past.

Heh, "digging into her past".


And Xili fails to make any sense, as usual.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 09 octobre 2011 - 10:13 .

[Computer_God91]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Computer_God91 wrote...

Because I don't give a crap about people I've never met before, that makes me emotionally dead?

Soooo, when that tsunami hit Japan, and you saw the footage of that massive wave demolishing everything in its path, you felt nothing?

When those guilt trip commercials come on for Feed the Children and ASPCA, you just shrug it off and say, "meh?"

Dude, get your heart checked.

Never saw the footage for Japan but I did for the other one a long while ago and I remember them saying the water retreated for miles and everyone just sat around investigating and then the huge wave came and all I thought was "What idiots, if the water retreats MILES farther then normal that's when you get the hell out of there." My reaction to the Japan one was "Wow, that really sucks to be in Japan right now." but those tsunami's were inevitable do to it being on a fault line so more or less human stupidity that we decided living on a tiny ass island and packing it to the brim with people sounded like a good idea.

I don't see the commercials for the feed the kids but the ones for the help the animals I have to mute because they are so long and annoying. I get it animals are beaten and abused, nothing I can do stop wasting my time with your annoying voice and song lady. God, no wonder why you hate life so much, you care about stuff way too much. Do you cry when celebrities die too? When Steve Jobs died I made a lame joke and moved on with my day. When Ryan Dunn died I called him an idiot for driving drunk and said "If you make stupid choices, bad sh!t can happen."

AdmiralCheez wrote...

How was anything you listed the players fault. All that is because of the Reapers, not you. You've been trying to warn everyone about this for years and nobody wanted to listen.

Because had you have been smarter, faster, more prepared, seen the clues ahead of time, maybe you could have saved that kid or that city.  Maybe your plan would have gone right had you caught the red herrings before it was too late.

You were DEAD for two years and now what could have been two years of preparation is now a couple of months. There was nothing you could do. Mistakes happen, you sound like the kind of person to blame yourself for things that are out of your control and that aren't your fault. I don't. If I couldn't have done better, if it wasn't my fault then too bad that sucks, can't change what's already happened. I just have to keep going and hope I can save the rest of the GALAXY and not worry about the 50+ lives I couldn't save because if I do then I might waste the time I could have spent saving everyone else moping around at the loss of a town or a kid and then cause more losses because I stopped and cryed for their misfortune. I'm not a God, I can't save everyone. Losses will happen, it's unavoidable. I gain nothing for beating myself up for it.

You'll read all that up above and think I'm one cold hearted son of a b!tch. Want something that might sound ironic? I play paragon 100% with some renegade peppered here and there. I find it sorta ironic cause everything above sounds very renegade, which is a path I refuse to take unless 100% necessary.

[Xilizhra]

And Xili fails to make any sense, as usual.

It's when I start to make sense to someone who thinks like you that I should be scared. But what are you talking about this time?

[Kaiser Shepard]

Xilizhra wrote...

And Xili fails to make any sense, as usual.

It's when I start to make sense to someone who thinks like you that I should be scared. But what are you talking about this time?

Being able to justify the slaughter of innocent, harmless pyjaks, you heartless Renegade!

[Labrev]

 I think the writers/devs are seriously getting too little credit here.

Powerless moments/failure for all Shepards:
-- Eden Prime mission going bad.
-- Getting stuck on Virmire.
-- Virmire scrippted death.
-- Udina lockdown on Normandy.
-- Councils dissupport of Shepard in ME2.
-- Alliance dissupport of Shepard in ME2..
-- Horizon, Shepard loses a friend. (Okay, not EVERYONE'S friend, but you know what I mean).
-- Horizon still half-abducted at the end of the mission.
-- Manipulation by TIM, and Shepard having to put up with it for having no other option.
-- Decision in Zaeed's LM: damned if you do (save workers, Vido got away) damned if you don't (kill Vido, workers die). All because Zaeed acted w/ no regard to your command.
-- Shadow Broker DLC. Shepard gets played like a DVD by Tela Vasir, almost sends mission to hell.
-- Arrival DLC. Mission success, but he's going to face charges for it.

I'd say there are plenty of them. And I'm not thinking too far out of the main-story, so there may well be others that I missed.

So with that, it's only fair Shepard at least has control over his own missions's success (afterall, he's routinely hyped up as a god-tier military leader anyway). And for that reason, squadmates, being as they are under your command, have pretty reasonable immunity to scripped death.

The "squad death for emotional impact" has been done once already. Not sure it really delivered in that sense, but it worked OK for that time/place. At this point, it would be pointless. There are so many squadmates and fans are emotionally-invested into each one differently. Even an all-popular squadmate like Garrus, IMO, wouldn't work out with this tactic. I can count on one hand how many squad deaths would -seriously- hit me on an emotional level, and Garrus is not one of them! I do like him a lot, but I'm not THAT tied to him. Looking at threads where people rank favorite squaddies, Garrus is definitely popular, but plenty of people don't care for him either.


What I'm also seeing here is people telling other people how they should be playing their game. Which is absurd, IMO. There is plenty of opportunity to fail outside the canon.

Not everywhere, they do have to push the story along in the end, but there is plenty of leeway given for players to feel like they couldn't save everyone. Not even going to attempt to list all those instances, but there are tons. I played as a Fail!Shep, mostly for lulz, but do have to admit it's quite a humbling experience to choose the dialgoue options that result in failure even if I'm not playing seriously.

So again, it's not like it's not there. If you want tragedy, make it happen, and respect the right to reserve a "happy ending" for others that want it.

Keep in mind, there are few superfans like us that play ME with his much fervor, wanting more death, drama, romance, and oft-competing themes. Ultimately, people are just playing to "win" the game. So for that reason, the game should be kept relatively "winnable" overall.