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[Anacronian Stryx]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

LoL @ slaughtering the Ferros colonists in the name of "duty and logic". 

Actually, there's a bit of rationale behind that.

1. We don't know exactly how the spores affect them and how permanent the condition is.  They may be stuck as mindless thralls in constant pain for the rest of their lives.  Without any knowledge that they will get better (and no reason to think that it's even possible), killing them could be considered doing them a favor.

2. They're shooting at you.  They want to kill you.  And they're not going to back down because they're being mind-controlled by a giant plant that's fighting for its survival.  It is really, really hard (and somewhat suicidal) to try to make nice with the guy pounding slugs into you.

Granted, I always try to kill as few as possible, but not going out of your way to spare them is hardly pointless slaughter.

Just because you don't know how long the spores will effect them doesn't make it right to just do a site call of "nope don't think they'll ever recover lets gun them down" - as you point out there a lot unknowable about the effect of the spores at that point but that's hardly any excuse to turn to lethal force especially when you're equipped with gas grenades that incapacitate them faster than you can conceivably gun them down, with this in mind self defense doesn't work as an excuse either.

[Nashiktal]

How did this go from a discussion about a save everyone ending, to a paragon vs renegade thread?

[Xilizhra]

Nashiktal wrote...

How did this go from a discussion about a save everyone ending, to a paragon vs renegade thread?

It's a Mass Effect thread, it's just inevitable.

[GodWood]

Nashiktal wrote...
How did this go from a discussion about a save everyone ending, to a paragon vs renegade thread?

Haven't kept up but I'm assuming a paragon started it, as usual.

[Computer_God91]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

See?  This is the problem.  You feel no pathos nor pity.  Maybe you're better off for it personally, but the rest of the world is not.  It is my opinion that apathy is what dooms civilization.  Yeah, maybe founding a nation over a subduction zone is asking for trouble, but your first reaction should be "my god, that's terrible!"  Not "what idiots."

Here's the footage.  The bad stuff starts about one minute in.  I am seriously choked up from just watching that.  Need chocolate.

I'm not apathetic, not by a long shot, but I don't see the point in letting myself feel like sh!t over something I have no control over. I don't gain or help anything or anyone by crying or feeling bad that some tragedy happened. My reaction to that video was "Wow, that sucks." That's it. That's all the emotion I'll allow myself to feel. I think it really does suck that that happened and the lives lost is bad, but nothing changes if I get emotional over it. I saw in that video what looked like a car driving to escape the water and I said "You're going the wrong way, dude." Honestly I feel the same now then I did before I saw the footage. I can't change what happened so feeling something for it won't fix it either so I just move on.

The thing is I'm desensitized to stuff like this. I've seen plenty of death and destruction while I was growing up from videos my friends showed me and what I heard on the news. So it doesn't bother me as much anymore hell one video that to this day scarred me for life is the video I saw of a man having his head cut off on video by a knife about 3 inches long and I remember the sound his wind pipe made as he drew in air from the hole in his neck. I remember the horror I felt vividly. I don't get like that over certain stuff anymore.

AdmiralCheez wrote...

And I think that's the difference between you and me.  When something bad happens, I ask myself how I could have helped prevent it, and how I can act now to prevent such a thing in the future.  I don't look for someone to blame or stop trying to make things better even when my impact is miniscule because even the tiniest amount of good is better than no good at all, and no good comes from pointing the finger and avoiding responsibility.  Yeah, it frustrates me that I can't save the world, but I can try.  By god, I can try.

It's nice to have a little game to myself where I can save the galaxy if I try hard enough.

I take full responsiblity for my actions if it was my fault. If it wasn't that's when I place the blame where it truely belongs. In your examples it is the Reapers fault, not mine. So I gain nothing by blaming myself. My job is to make sure I can save as many people as I can and worry about the failures once the job is done. If I run into stuff like you discribed along the way then too bad so sad I have a job to do, I won't stop to feel for something that I wasn't responsible for.

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Then the reasons you go renegade are different than mine.  Two people can do the same thing for different reasons.

I make renegade choices when it's the most logical choice to make. Example: I tell Helana Blake I'm taking her to prison, she refuses, the paragon option is to just let her go. No, I won't let a criminal walk free, so I kill here straight up.

[AdmiralCheez]

GodWood wrote...

Haven't kept up but I'm assuming a paragon started it, as usual.

Nope.  Just the result of two combative and opinionated people walking into the same thread at the same time.

Red?  Blue?  Bah.  Internet mudslinging knows no color.

[nitefyre410]

Nashiktal wrote...

How did this go from a discussion about a save everyone ending, to a paragon vs renegade thread?

 

because some how saving everyong or trying to save as many as you can is  seen as Paragon why of thinking  while not  doing this is considered  by some as Renegade why of thinking.  

[KotorEffect3]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

LoL @ slaughtering the Ferros colonists in the name of "duty and logic". 

Colonists have been infected with an alien disease which might or might not be cured upon killing the infector, do you kill them or do you knock them out and hope they wake up okay?

*shoots them dead*

Renegade rationalization always cracks me up.

Suppose that's one thing Paragon aren't capable of, rationalising, at least not beyond "that's the blue option, so I'll choose that".

As for Feros, I personally didn't kill anyone there, but I do want that to bite me in the ass.

Rengades want every paragon decision to bite us in the ass.  How often do we see a "punishing paragons" thread pop up?  Quite often.  And you renegades are probably just as guilty of  the "that the red option, so I'll chose that."

[Kaiser Shepard]

Xilizhra wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

How did this go from a discussion about a save everyone ending, to a paragon vs renegade thread?

It's a Mass Effect thread, it's just inevitable.

True, true.

Say, how about we take a break from this one, Xil?

[Someone With Mass]

I just don't want it to be too hard to save everyone, since that would probably involve a lot of work, which in its turn could start feeling like a chore after a couple of playthroughs.

Especially if there's DLC involved.

[GodWood]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Haven't kept up but I'm assuming a paragon started it, as usual.

Nope.  Just the result of two combative and opinionated people walking into the same thread at the same time.

Nah it was Killjoy being a d*ck. I was right.

[GodWood]

KotorEffect3 wrote...
Rengades want every paragon decision to bite us in the ass.  How often do we see a "punishing paragons" thread pop up?

That's because you have yet to be punished.
Your blind idealism and naivety has had no repercussions unlike the renegades pragamticism and ruthlessness.


/can of worms

[Xilizhra]

GodWood wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...
Rengades want every paragon decision to bite us in the ass.  How often do we see a "punishing paragons" thread pop up?

That's because you have yet to be punished.
Your blind idealism and naivety has had no repercussions unlike the renegades pragamticism and ruthlessness.


/can of worms

If Paragon decisions were blind idealism, something would have gone wrong by now.

[sorentoft]

GodWood wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...
Rengades want every paragon decision to bite us in the ass.  How often do we see a "punishing paragons" thread pop up?

That's because you have yet to be punished.
Your blind idealism and naivety has had no repercussions unlike the renegades pragamticism and ruthlessness.


/can of worms

That's what you get for being rude and killing everybody.

[GodWood]

Xilizhra wrote...
If Paragon decisions were blind idealism, something would have gone wrong by now.

Developer bias

[KotorEffect3]

GodWood wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...
Rengades want every paragon decision to bite us in the ass.  How often do we see a "punishing paragons" thread pop up?

That's because you have yet to be punished.
Your blind idealism and naivety has had no repercussions unlike the renegades pragamticism and ruthlessness.


/can of worms

If we are idealistic and naive than you are xenphobic and rash.  What you would call blind idealism and naivety I would call having a sense of honor and and having the foresight not to alienate potential allies.  And I fail to see how renegades have been "punished" other than missing a few cameos and emails.

[Nashiktal]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I just don't want it to be too hard to save everyone, since that would probably involve a lot of work, which in its turn could start feeling like a chore after a couple of playthroughs.

Especially if there's DLC involved.

I have to admit, as much as I liked ME2's DLC it becomes a chore to play them after the first playthrough. Like the Kasumi one, make a new character and have to go through it for the locust weapon.

[AdmiralCheez]

GodWood wrote...

That's because you have yet to be punished.
Your blind idealism and naivety has had no repercussions unlike the renegades pragamticism and ruthlessness.

My renegade was punished?

Wow, that's news to me.

Seriously, wrong thread, bro.  I don't care what in-game decisions you made and I'm not going to judge you for them.

AND NEITHER SHOULD ANYONE ELSE RIGHT GUYS?

[Nashiktal]

Paragon and Renegade arguments make my eye twitch. Can we agree to disagree and get back on topic?

[Killjoy Cutter]

GodWood wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...
How did this go from a discussion about a save everyone ending, to a paragon vs renegade thread?

Haven't kept up but I'm assuming a paragon started it, as usual.

Started here: 

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

That's not my main problem. I can't kill the rachni queen, I can't kill the Feros colonists, I can't kill the Council...

I really don't understand the outright visceral glee that some people derive from taking the "bloody" path on decisions like those.

Nobody does, we those make decisions because we place duty and and logic above whatever you use when making decisions.

And then continued here.

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

LoL @ slaughtering the Ferros colonists in the name of "duty and logic". 

Colonists have been infected with an alien disease which might or might not be cured upon killing the infector, do you kill them or do you knock them out and hope they wake up okay?

*shoots them dead*

Renegade rationalization always cracks me up.

The problem is that about half the renegade decisions are just Shep being a giant spacec**k.  The other half appear to be about ruthless utiltarianism, but in truth about half of those actually involve going out of your way and doing things the harder, less effective way just to take the "bloody path."  

http://en.wikipedia....(making_excuses) -- not the same thing as being rational or making rational choices. 

It's not the fault of the fans of the red choices that  Bioware can't make their mind up what "renegade" actually means.  Hell, about 10% of the time in ME2 it means just means "TIM's lapdog." 

(And that quarter or so of renegade choices that actually involve ruthless, rational effectiveness?  I actually choose a lot of those.) 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 09 octobre 2011 - 11:49 .

[KotorEffect3]

Xilizhra wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

How did this go from a discussion about a save everyone ending, to a paragon vs renegade thread?

It's a Mass Effect thread, it's just inevitable.

And let's be honest it is fun.  Besides renegades love to whine:p

[Dave of Canada]

To try and make it ontopic, quoting my last post which was ignored! :-P

Dave of Canada wrote...

I doubt it's going to happen and you're going to get your way but you can still be "happy" with a cost attached, imagine the emotion of having your love interest (assuming he/she is military or has military training) being sent out on recon and gets shot down in heavy Reaper territory. I doubt you're going to sit there and take it, I'm pretty sure most players would be yelling "WE HAVE TO GO SAVE THEM".

Imagine the scene playing out exactly like how the player is feeling, you have an irrational Shepard who wants to send the fleet in and rescue one lone man (or maybe a small team) because of their personal feelings and the Admirals in charge are telling you to calm the hell down as you're risking more than just your love interest's life.

Do you agree with them or are you stubborn about it? Do you take the entire fleet to go save them, risking the lives of those under your command because you can't let go or do you abandon your love interest for the greater good of the universe?

If you decided to abandon them, imagine having dialogues where Shepard can lash out at others. Scolding Hackett for sending Kaidan out to die, telling the Turian Admirals to shove it for trapping Garrus there, having other companions like Vega tell you sorry for the loss. You might feel horrible but you've got the fleet and you've got entire content around that decision.

Now you reload and save them, you drag the fleet (if you charmed/intimiated them) over and they're being destroyed as you take the Hammerhead down to the surface and fight through Husks and indoctrinated soldiers to your love interest's downed shuttle.

As you rescue them, you realize the fleet is taking heavy casualties and they're trying to retreat and you head over to the Normandy which is staying for a short while before being forced to evacuate without you. You arrive onboard the Normandy and you hear about the casualties being high, Hackett/Somebody else important is MIA and you get to hear the entire fleet question your judgement.

Maybe that's just me but having such things things play out would be a thousand times more interesting than Shepard never having to make tough calls or risk losing people without consequence. We're at war, there shouldn't be any happy endings.

Make your own happy endings, does Shepard care about all the dead soldiers and the fleet questioning your judgement if it means seeing Garrus / Kaidan / Jacob / Miranda / Ashley / ect again?

[Xilizhra]

I doubt it's going to happen and you're going to get your way but you can still be "happy" with a cost attached, imagine the emotion of having your love interest (assuming he/she is military or has military training) being sent out on recon and gets shot down in heavy Reaper territory. I doubt you're going to sit there and take it, I'm pretty sure most players would be yelling "WE HAVE TO GO SAVE THEM".

Luckily, Liara has no military training whatsoever, as shown in her lack of skills relating to weapons/armor in ME1. But this'd make this sort of scenario difficult to implement.

[Someone With Mass]

Nashiktal wrote...

I have to admit, as much as I liked ME2's DLC it becomes a chore to play them after the first playthrough. Like the Kasumi one, make a new character and have to go through it for the locust weapon.

Then there's Zaeed's loyalty mission Overlord, LotSB and Arrival.

If each DLC takes about an hour to complete, that would be a lot of extra work. More so if the player feels like arranging them in a way that feels consistent according to the timeline.

[GodWood]

KotorEffect3 wrote...
What you would call blind idealism and naivety I would call having a sense of honor

lol

and and having the foresight not to alienate potential allies.

Metagaming is not foresight. 

And I fail to see how renegades have been "punished" other than missing a few cameos and emails.

Less content and recognition is a punishment.

But there's also the human led Council's hate for Shepard, his loss of his Spectre status...

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Seriously, wrong thread, bro.

Soz

Modifié par GodWood, 09 octobre 2011 - 11:47 .