4309 réponses à ce sujet

[The Elder King]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Pretty much. I finished the Suicide Mission on my first playthrough without a death and thought to myself "That's it?". Any deaths had to be done because my Shepard unintentionally hit his head before the scene and he didn't realize Tali wouldn't make a good fire team later.

Which kills the mood big time because it's not emotional at all.

Eh, the game gave us the name of the squadmates we should choose in every path in the SM. And if we pay attention during the game, we already know who we have to choose, even without the hints (Jack is described as the most powerful human biotic, Samara is Justicar with over 700 years, Tali is a genius in the tech department, Garrus lead a squad in Omega.)

[Dave of Canada]

I know, I'm just saying I have to pretend my Shepard went stupid if I want a bittersweet ending.

[The Elder King]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I know, I'm just saying I have to pretend my Shepard went stupid if I want a bittersweet ending.

This is what I'm saying too. The SM is easy. And all the death choices are obvious. To make someone die here Shepard has to be stupid, or  he hates someone of the squad and he wants to kill him/her (and that's stupid too).

[Eckswhyzee]

hhh89 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I know, I'm just saying I have to pretend my Shepard went stupid if I want a bittersweet ending.

This
is what I'm saying too. The SM is easy. And all the death choices are
obvious. To make someone die here Shepard has to be stupid, or  he hates
someone of the squad and he wants to kill him/her (and that's stupid
too).

What you have to realise that you is that you are special snowflakes.  I'm sorry I can't give you a link but I
believe the casualty rate for the SM is an average of ~15% (from 'uploadgameplay data option'). So for the majority of ME2 (and likely ME3) players, the SM was extremely tense, and not everyone made it out first time.

EDIT: Formatting

Modifié par Eckswhyzee, 07 octobre 2011 - 10:02 .

[jeweledleah]

hhh89 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I know, I'm just saying I have to pretend my Shepard went stupid if I want a bittersweet ending.

This is what I'm saying too. The SM is easy. And all the death choices are obvious. To make someone die here Shepard has to be stupid, or  he hates someone of the squad and he wants to kill him/her (and that's stupid too).

or... they didn't get enough paragon/renegade points to resolve conflicts.  maybe they failed Samara's loyalty mission.  maybe they thought that they relaly should go ahead and get the reaper IFF end ended up either losing most of the crew, or some squadmates who'se loyalty mission they didn't do yet,  they might not have gathered enough minerals to buy every single upgrade just yet.  maybe they wanted to bring the heavy hitters with them to the last fight and ended up losing people to hold the line.

there are plenty of reasons why someone might not be able to come out of the suicide mission unscathed without acting stupid.

[Biotic Sage]

Mass Effect is not, and never should be, Care Bears in Space. For the people who want rainbows and butterflies, maybe a dark science fiction series built around hard decisions and morally grey dilemmas is not for you. I mean, the Reapers have cyclically destroyed every sentient being in the galaxy for millions and millions of years. Millions.

And some people think it would be appropriate for an ending in which Shepard just takes care of business, brushes dirt off his shoulder, and afterwards everybody just lives happily ever after? Maybe getting married and having what may or may not be cross-species children? I honestly don't understand these people. Sorry Cheez, I get your point about fantasy fulfillment, but catharsis trumps god-mode in storytelling.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 07 octobre 2011 - 10:12 .

[The Elder King]

jeweledleah wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I know, I'm just saying I have to pretend my Shepard went stupid if I want a bittersweet ending.

This is what I'm saying too. The SM is easy. And all the death choices are obvious. To make someone die here Shepard has to be stupid, or  he hates someone of the squad and he wants to kill him/her (and that's stupid too).

or... they didn't get enough paragon/renegade points to resolve conflicts.  maybe they failed Samara's loyalty mission.  maybe they thought that they relaly should go ahead and get the reaper IFF end ended up either losing most of the crew, or some squadmates who'se loyalty mission they didn't do yet,  they might not have gathered enough minerals to buy every single upgrade just yet.  maybe they wanted to bring the heavy hitters with them to the last fight and ended up losing people to hold the line.

there are plenty of reasons why someone might not be able to come out of the suicide mission unscathed without acting stupid.

My fault, I'm not expressed myself. I'm not saying that people are stupid, I'm saying that after the first playtrough, you should know how the SM works. So if I decide to kill someone, it should be because I want some squadmates death, and I have to roleplay a Shepard that acts as a stupid.

[diamondedge]

Granted, dropping an entire civilization just for Liara would seem a bit overkill...

Heh.  Overkill.

Luckily, Bioware doesn't have nearly enough balls to put us in situation like this. Try witcher 2. I haven't met anyone who hasn't thought for half an hour what to do when faced with last decision in game.

Modifié par diamondedge, 07 octobre 2011 - 10:11 .

[The Elder King]

Eckswhyzee wrote...


What you have to realise that you is that you are special snowflakes.  I'm sorry I can't give you a link but I
believe the casualty rate for the SM is an average of ~15% (from 'uploadgameplay data option'). So for the majority of ME2 (and likely ME3) players, the SM was extremely tense, and not everyone made it out first time.

EDIT: Formatting

I remembered something like that. But is this date from the first playtrough only? Because a lot of people kill some squadmates in the SM after the first playtrough, and in that case it's not because the SM is difficult, but it's because people want to kill some squadmates.
Anyway, I can't think at the SM as tense or difficult. I can understand if some squadmates for the things before the SM (though if you paid attention to the game, you know what you should do), but the SM in itself is easy.

[Sinapus]

TS2Aggie wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

What's the point of having other endings if you have one where you "win" on all fronts other than if you want to be intentionally stupid on your playthrough or if you want to see how it's like to fail? There's no point.

All due respect, Dave, what is the point of fighting a war that is unwinnable right from the beginning? If the galaxy is done for no matter what you do, why bother trying at all?

Allowing an option to get a "happy ending" is (as AdmiralCheez so aptly put it) a worthy goal to strive for. You want it to be impossible? Only play on Insanity. If that's still not hard enough? Mod it to make it even harder. Not everyone wants to be bothered with fighting a battle that is just not winnable.

Mod the game so the Reapers recognize you as the much feared Captain Kirk and surrender immediately.

(Speaking of unwinnable scenarios and ways around them...)

[jeweledleah]

hhh89 wrote...
"snip"

My fault, I'm not expressed myself. I'm not saying that people are stupid, I'm saying that after the first playtrough, you should know how the SM works. So if I decide to kill someone, it should be because I want some squadmates death, and I have to roleplay a Shepard that acts as a stupid.

not really.  you can role play Shepard as in a hurry.  or trusting the judgement of his/her XO. or as someone who actualy does take sides in conflicts. or hates cerberus so much that he/she refuses to have anything to do with anyone affiliated with it, or lacks charisma to convince Morinth to take him/her home, etc etc etc.  that's why its role playing.  YOU know how to do the suicide mission and YOU know which results you want to achieve.  but your Shepard?  your shepard doesn't have to have the same meta reasoning as you do.

unless some sort of tragic outcome is unavoidable, every single game gets easier after that first time. especialy when you have acess to calculators and guides.  and to me unavoidable outcome actualy reduces replayability of the game, assuming I actualy want to finish it.  what's the point of being given choices and they don't matter at all, if all those choices lead to failure?  its not so bad in a game that doesn't have varioable choices and outcomes (like Gears for isntance)  since you are just there for the ride to watch the story unfold.  but rpg's like Mass Effect?  they make you believe that you CAN affect the outcome of the game and making deaths unavoidable removes any illusion of that.

[KBomb]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Oh, I want to feel the gravity of the situation, too.  Just with one caveat: Plot deaths of squadmates can kiss my ass.

There are tons of other ways to make the world feel like it's ending.  Killing the cool guy is just the easiest, and Hollywood's beaten me over the head with it so many times that I need a break.

Pretty much this. The death of your teammates, best friends and love interests dying has become so clichéd in the media. I think it cheapens the story just to have someone close to you die for the sake of making someone have sad face. Again, I don’t mind working for it. I just want my teammates to survive and I wouldn’t mind sacrificing a whole universe to do it.

I mean, isn’t Commander Shepard’s team suppose to be the best in the galaxy? I don’t see it being unrealistic or cheap that fourteen of the most elite team the galaxy has to offer can live through the war. Billions will die, we will see destruction on a massive scale throughout the game. I have no doubt we will see secondary characters die. All I ask for is the option to save my team.



And I would also like to say that you don’t need to lose teammates to feel an emotional impact of the situation. Deaths of NPC’s can make an emotional impact. Case in point: Gears of War 3 when walking through the city and all the people are mummified through ash. There were people clutching at each other, mothers holding their children them, people frozen in time as they tried to escape through car windshields, whole families huddled together in their last moments. I didn’t know these people, but I remember feeling a terrible sadness at seeing them. No, I don’t think you need to kill people you know in order to feel the weight of a situation.

Modifié par KBomb, 07 octobre 2011 - 10:54 .

[Aggie Punbot]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I know, I'm just saying I have to pretend my Shepard went stupid if I want a bittersweet ending.

Then you need to learn how to roleplay your Shepard and not just 'play a game.' Is what you as a player do the same thing that your own personal Shepard would do? I suspect not.

I think the only issue I have is with people who want the possibility of a 'happy ending' removed entirely for everyone just because they don't want it. You want death and destruction? Do it. I want a chance to be at least marginally happy when the game is over? I should have the option. I don't think that any game company should cater any game exclusively to one subsection of fans.

I think it's similar to the people opposed to the same sex relationships*: if you don't want that option (in this case, a happy ending), don't play like you do. Saying that the fact that the option is there detracts from your enjoyment is just silly.

*Note: this comment is not directed at you, DoC. It's more a general statement.

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 07 octobre 2011 - 10:57 .

[Siegdrifa]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Mass Effect is not, and never should be, Care Bears in Space. For the people who want rainbows and butterflies, maybe a dark science fiction series built around hard decisions and morally grey dilemmas is not for you. I mean, the Reapers have cyclically destroyed every sentient being in the galaxy for millions and millions of years. Millions.

And some people think it would be appropriate for an ending in which Shepard just takes care of business, brushes dirt off his shoulder, and afterwards everybody just lives happily ever after? Maybe getting married and having what may or may not be cross-species children? I honestly don't understand these people. Sorry Cheez, I get your point about fantasy fulfillment, but catharsis trumps god-mode in storytelling.

This is YOUR vision.
Accomplish an incredible task that nobody but one or a few can accomplish is the base of nearly every epic story.
Technicaly in video games, it often saves as far as the main characters can travel. If they travel through one country, they often save the country, if they travel through the world, they often save the world, if they travel through galaxy, they save the galaxy. There is less meaning in traveling through galaxy to save one village.

In ME 1 & 2 as far as i saw, this is not a dark sience fic story where it must end badly. In "MY" vision, ME3 should be to mass effect what is "the return of the jedi" for star wars, and epique finish that will make you want another ride just after the credit roll.

Yet i hope Bioware will have done some dramatical but still avoidable death for those who are expecting a masscre. The only one that can force their vision on other is Bioware, not yours on me, or mine on you.
So what's your problem if Bioware tryed to match both to make death possible but still avoidable?

Don't forget that video game are for entertainement first, this is not a survival simulation agains't X kind of threat.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Kill...EVERYONE.

It's time to see the supposed power of the Reapers.

Some poepel jsut want this:

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 07 octobre 2011 - 11:12 .

[The Elder King]

jeweledleah wrote...

hhh89 wrote...
"snip"

My fault, I'm not expressed myself. I'm not saying that people are stupid, I'm saying that after the first playtrough, you should know how the SM works. So if I decide to kill someone, it should be because I want some squadmates death, and I have to roleplay a Shepard that acts as a stupid.

not really.  you can role play Shepard as in a hurry.  or trusting the judgement of his/her XO. or as someone who actualy does take sides in conflicts. or hates cerberus so much that he/she refuses to have anything to do with anyone affiliated with it, or lacks charisma to convince Morinth to take him/her home, etc etc etc.  that's why its role playing.  YOU know how to do the suicide mission and YOU know which results you want to achieve.  but your Shepard?  your shepard doesn't have to have the same meta reasoning as you do.

I managed to beat the SM withouth killing anyone in my first tentative, withouth metagaming. I have actually to metagame, and deliberately change what I'd usually do to change the outcome and make some people die.
Even is Shep doesn't know what I know, he know exactly that the Normandy was destroyed, so he'll surely do any upgrades at the ship.
Anyway, I was talking mainly about the SM. In any case, I'm not saying that the people who roleplay Shep in a way that make some squadmates die are idiots or that their Shep are idiots. I said that if I play that way I feel like my Shepard is an idiot.

[Aggie Punbot]

I really cannot fathom why some people feel the need to expect that options be removed from a game entirely just because it's something they personally don't want. What, do they not have the will power to play in a manner that will ensure they get the outcome that they want?

Should there be an ultimate failure option? Absolutely. This is galactic war we're taking about.
Should there be a 'happy ending' option? Absolutely. Not everyone wants to play a game trilogy just to have nothing they've done matter.

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 07 octobre 2011 - 11:17 .

[sorentoft]

What weird, childish fantasies has Mass fulfilled for you, if any?

You mean besides seeing a robot doing the robot?

Do you think happy endings and No One Left Behinds belong in a game like ME3?  If not, why?

Yeah I do, but also a "OH NO EVERYONE IS DEAD:crying:" ending would be nice too.

Would you accept that sort of thing if it was optional/difficult to achieve?

I would save everyone if I could. That is just how I play. Except for that scene where you can kick a merc out of a tower. That is hillarious. :innocent:
 

How do you want to feel when the credits roll?

Sort of wanting more of the game or the ME universe, then you know the developers did a good job.

Modifié par sorentoft, 07 octobre 2011 - 11:19 .

[Aggie Punbot]

Saphra Deden wrote...

TS2Aggie wrote...

I really cannot fathom why some people feel the need to expect that options be removed from a game entirely just because it's something they personally don't want. What, do they not have the will power to play in a manner that will ensure they get the outcome that they want?

Like I said, realism. I'd expect a perfect everyone survives ending in Final Fantasy. This is not a JRPG. It is supposed to harkin back to classic science fiction. A lot of that classic science fiction was dark. Yes, it was hopeful too and the ending should ultimately be upbeat. However it should still be costly.

Dave of Canada said it best.

Then for the Maker's sake, play it for realism. Why does the game having an outcome that you don't want matter to you so much? Just because you want it to be depressing and filled with doom and gloom doesn't mean everyone does.

As fellow gamers, why does your opinion matter more than other people (like, say, myself or AdmiralCheez)? Why should you get everything that you want that denies other players what they want? What makes your opinion so much more valid than other peoples'?

The difference between the two of us is that I have no problem with you having the options to get the endings you want in the game, whereas you actively want to deny me the mere possibility of the ending I want because you personally dont like it. You're being awfully selfish.

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 07 octobre 2011 - 11:28 .

[wright1978]

I don't want forced deaths(i.e character x dies no matter what you do)
What i do want is at least one situation where Shepherd's choices have a real consequences on who lives and who dies and where there isn't a perfect path. If deaths are avoidable will try and avoid them and that will lessen the impact of the story imo. Virmire was a very powerful mission which would have been lessened if there had been a way to bypass the character death. i want a system where if Shep prioritises certain missions over others that has an effect on those missions placed down the pecking order and characters associated with them.

[Aggie Punbot]

I highly suspect that the happy ending that the detractors of such a thing are talking about won't be possible, anyways. I fully expect that at least one (or more) of the "main homeworlds" will get destroyed regardless because Shepard just can't be everywhere at once. And that's fine. That is somewhat realistic.

I just don't think that ending the series on a potentially hopeful note is (if you'll pardon the phrase) the end of the world.

[Lotion Soronarr]

TS2Aggie wrote...

I really cannot fathom why some people feel the need to expect that options be removed from a game entirely just because it's something they personally don't want. What, do they not have the will power to play in a manner that will ensure they get the outcome that they want?

Should there be an ultimate failure option? Absolutely. This is galactic war we're taking about.
Should there be a 'happy ending' option? Absolutely. Not everyone wants to play a game trilogy just to have nothing they've done matter.

Not the dirreference between "every little thing" and "nothing". Learn it.