4309 réponses à ce sujet

[AdmiralCheez]

Chewin3 wrote...

True, but maybe Shepard knows that if Morinth tries to pull anything drastic, she will end up dead as everyone else. And besides, she does wanna have "hot death sex" with Shepard after the SM (if you pursued a romance with her, that is).

Hey, it doesn't have to be a perfect reason, just good enough to get folks killed in the SM without personally feeling like your Shepard is a moron.

[SnowHeart1]

sorentoft wrote...

So in the end it could all boil down to "Well, I would love to shag that Asari chick and hope it does not fry my brains out."



Well I suppose that makes sense.

Risk takers take risks, some less sensible than others. But some more fun.  (Besides, after a certain number of play-throughs, it's a little hard not to metagame it and just come up with weird ShepConcepts to play through the game.)

[Yezdigerd]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And let's not get into the 'Zaeed failed as a leader but Garrus was good' bit.

Why not? Zaeed is a complete sociopath as you can see from his loyalty mission. After seeing him burn innocent people for "revenge" no sane person would trust in his leadership to keep you alive.

Garrus on the other hand obsesses about the people he commands and, while harsh, has strong feelings about right and wrong.


A more strange thing is why Samara with her 800 years of experience and immaculate integrity fails as a fire team leader but not Jacob.

[sorentoft]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

So in the end it could all boil down to "Well, I would love to shag that Asari chick and hope it does not fry my brains out."



Well I suppose that makes sense.

Risk takers take risks, some less sensible than others. But some more fun.  (Besides, after a certain number of play-throughs, it's a little hard not to metagame it and just come up with weird ShepConcepts to play through the game.)

True enough. Though, I just got thinking - whatever happens when an Ardat-Yakshi mates with another Ardat-Yakshi?

[sorentoft]

Yezdigerd wrote...

A more strange thing is why Samara with her 800 years of experience and immaculate integrity fails as a fire team leader but not Jacob.

Samara usually works alone.

[Athayniel]

sorentoft wrote...

True enough. Though, I just got thinking - whatever happens when an Ardat-Yakshi mates with another Ardat-Yakshi?

I believe they have an immunity to the effects but are infertile. Certain of the latter, could be wrong about the former.

[AdmiralCheez]

AwesomeName wrote...

Yeah she is... who the player has decided to pick over Samara in this version of events.  Imo, I don't see why it would be a tough decision (you jumped that hurdle way back when you brought her on the ship to begin with) - if she agrees to do it then she has to protect all of you otherwise she's dead; 1. she'll know how vulnerable she'll be when she has to put all her concentration into maintaining a bubble and following you at the same time and 2. she'll know that the team itself will probably be under collector fire.

Maybe, but again, Jacob may seem like a "safer" option by benefit of being more trustworthy, plus we know the guy has barrier skillz.

I am not saying everyone who wants people to die in the SM should make Jacob the bubble guy.  All I'm saying is, were I to make Jacob the bubble guy, I wouldn't feel it was a "stupid" choice.  It seems just as logical to me as having Zaeed lead the fire team, or having Miranda do the bubble, or taking both Zaeed and Garrus on the end run while having Grunt be the escort or whatever.

[SnowHeart1]

Yezdigerd wrote...

A more strange thing is why Samara with her 800 years of experience and immaculate integrity fails as a fire team leader but not Jacob.

Integrity doesn't have much place on the battlefield, IMO -- not if you want to win. Sure, okay, fine, don't torture people or shoot unarmed people, but past that? And she's too much of a lone wolf. All of the Asari are afraid of her, she works alone, she's not used to coordinating others. Add to that a flat affect, and she may not be that inspiring to people who are being shot at. As for Jacob... um... who's that?

[AdmiralCheez]

Anyway, the point of all this is that it's possible to make fairly logical decisions and still f*ck up enough that people die.  Thefore it's still excusable to let those of us that want to get away with it save the whole team without the story being horribly contrived to those on a quest for drama and realism.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 11 octobre 2011 - 08:59 .

[Wulfram]

Even if it's a reasonably logical choice in character, it still feels very wrong to me if it's done with the intention of killing off a party member.

[sorentoft]

So, agreement that SM-system >= VS-system?

Edit; I positively found the best smiley... ever.

Modifié par sorentoft, 11 octobre 2011 - 09:06 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Wulfram wrote...

Even if it's a reasonably logical choice in character, it still feels very wrong to me if it's done with the intention of killing off a party member.

I agree.  However, things will feel very different if you go into ME3 blind.  You might not see this sort of thing coming, and it will definitely not feel like you let someone die on purpose.  Just ask all of the people that failed to talk Wrex down.

All you have to do is resist the urge to look at spoilers and have the balls to not reload.

[Wulfram]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
I agree.  However, things will feel very different if you go into ME3 blind.  You might not see this sort of thing coming, and it will definitely not feel like you let someone die on purpose.  Just ask all of the people that failed to talk Wrex down.

All you have to do is resist the urge to look at spoilers and have the balls to not reload.

Well, that didn't work the last two games.

edit:@sorentoft I don't agree.  But I'm awkward like that.

Modifié par Wulfram, 11 octobre 2011 - 09:06 .

[Yezdigerd]

AwesomeName wrote...

Surely it depends on how the scripted death is done?  Things like: how well written the characters are, how believable they are, how much depth they have, how good the acting is, how well written the story is and the series of events that led to their death are, how well the themes throughout the story resonate with the scene itself, how well storyboarded it is, how good the music for the scene is if it's used at all, etc..

Because I wasn't moved at all by the Virmire death, but there are plenty of good examples in other media which have moved me.

Good examples off the top of my head:
Izzy in the Fountain, Aenea in Rise of Endymion, Catherine in Wuthering Heights, Anthony Hopkins' "family" in Instinct, Katsumoto in Last Samurai, Asuka in End of Evangelion, Elias in Platoon

Well, the ones I recognice from your list are movies and books. In the case I I don't have any agency in the plot its no problem. It's when you have come to plot scene 14 in the game and suddenly you are just to accept the death of someone for the DRAMA, nevermind that as squad member he been incapacitade dozens of times without you feeling worried about it.

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 11 octobre 2011 - 09:07 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Wulfram wrote...

Well, that didn't work the last two games.

Oh ho ho, couldn't keep our noses out of the strategy guides, could we?

That's okay, I couldn't, either. >_>;

[sorentoft]

Wulfram wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...
I agree.  However, things will feel very different if you go into ME3 blind.  You might not see this sort of thing coming, and it will definitely not feel like you let someone die on purpose.  Just ask all of the people that failed to talk Wrex down.

All you have to do is resist the urge to look at spoilers and have the balls to not reload.

Well, that didn't work the last two games.

edit:@sorentoft I don't agree.  But I'm awkward like that.

It's okay. I found a new smiley, so I am happy.

I should have used the word consensus anyway. Also you people looking at strategy guides need to stop metagaming before you get renegade interrupted. 

Modifié par sorentoft, 11 octobre 2011 - 09:15 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

sorentoft wrote...

So, agreement that SM-system >= VS-system?

Edit; I positively found the best smiley... ever.

Wait what?

No. Most definetly not. Okay to be able to save most of your squadmates, but not all.

[Captain_Obvious]

Lizardviking wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

So, agreement that SM-system >= VS-system?

Edit; I positively found the best smiley... ever.

Wait what?

No. Most definetly not. Okay to be able to save most of your squadmates, but not all.

Yes.  Most definitely okay.  Okay to be able to save all or most of your squadmates. 

It wouldn't be the BSN if we weren't going around in circles.  And nice smiley. 

[sorentoft]

Lizardviking wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

So, agreement that SM-system >= VS-system?

Edit; I positively found the best smiley... ever.

Wait what?

No. Most definetly not. Okay to be able to save most of your squadmates, but not all.

Why?

Edit: I made a macro for it.

:innocent:

Modifié par sorentoft, 11 octobre 2011 - 09:19 .

[Yezdigerd]

Lizardviking wrote...


Samara and Jack are both powerful biotics. Them not having the ability to create singularity is just gameplay/story segreagation.

If that is so, I certainly missed that in all my playthroughs. In my game people specializes and it seems to work like any other skill. You might be more deft then a carpenter, but his experience will still yield a better product despite your superior talent.

And please, stop assuming things. I do in fact find it illogical that Jacob is a succsesful squad leader. Same with if he was an able biotic specialist.

Yet you harped on the thing that supported your stance and ignored the other.

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 11 octobre 2011 - 09:19 .

[AdmiralCheez]

AwesomeName wrote...

I dunno, Jacob doesn't sound like a bad candidate as you say, but to Shepard he's not the best; so why wouldn't Shepard pick someone who's obviously better at it than him?  The whole discussion amongst teamates emphasises biotic ability, and assuming the crazies are loyal, generally the player is going to gravitate toward the obvious choices of Morinth/Jack.  In any case, Morinth's lack of trustworthyness is rather moot when you decided to pick her over Samara in the first place, and the fact that Shepard knows that Morinth knows she's dead on that base without them.  And I agree it's as logical as those other choices you've suggested in that they're just as lolwut! :/

To YOUR Shepard.  To others, someone less powerful but far more reliable may feel like a smarter choice.

It's hard to think about this when you already know the "correct" answer.  Try to get into the mindset of someone who is doing their first run and didn't read any spoilers.

Seriously, I probably wouldn't have saved Wrex if my friend didn't give me the heads up about maxing persuasion and/or doing the "family armor" sidequest.  I seriously derped my way through ME1 the first time I played it.  On my second run, I couldn't believe how much I missed by virtue of not knowing what the hell I was doing.

Unfortunately, I didn't have the same pleasure in ME2.  Upon hearing that squadmates could permanently die if I goofed up, I surrounded myself in strategy guides because I was paranoid I'd screw it up.  In hindsight, I regret that, because I ruined the whole game for myself.

[Almostfaceman]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Anyway, the point of all this is that it's possible to make fairly logical decisions and still f*ck up enough that people die.  Thefore it's still excusable to let those of us that want to get away with it save the whole team without the story being horribly contrived to those on a quest for drama and realism.

Yup.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Yezdigerd wrote...
If that is so, I certainly missed that in all my playthroughs. In my game people specializes and it seems to work like any other skill. You might be more deft then a carpenter, but his experience will still yield a better product despite your superior talent.

Liara had helluva alot more skills back in ME1. What? Did she get more dumb? What about those awesome powers Samara and Jack had in the cutscenes? Did they forget them too?

Don't use the squadmates skilltrees as a sign for what they can or cannot do.

And please, stop assuming things. I do in fact find it illogical that Jacob is a succsesful squad leader. Same with if he was an able biotic specialist.

Yet you harped on the thing that supported your stance and ignored the other.

I never once stated that Jacob being a good fire team leader was logical. When in fact it is one of those things that suprised me. Jacob is described as a disciplined biotic in his dossie, but remember he is just human lika Miranda (who is also said to be a good biotic for her species). He is not a freak experiment like Jack nor a 700 year-old Asari with hardcore training like Samara. So Jacob being unable to do the biotic trick is not suprising.