4309 réponses à ce sujet

[Biotic Sage]

Captain_Obvious wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Athayniel wrote...

Such a situation would only come about for the sake of "Drama!" Any situation with a forced death is written specifically for dramatic purposes. They don't get written by accident.

Yeah, fancy That. Drama in a narrative. You know, that thing that makes stories fun?

I hate drama.  I want all my squadmembers alive.  I really don't care what dramatic stuff happens to yours. 

http://dictionary.re...om/browse/drama

Why are you playing a story-driven game if you don't like drama.  Seriously, think about it.  Play checkers/chess/real time strategy games or sports games if you don't like stories.  Or read choose your own adventure novels.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 11 octobre 2011 - 11:12 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Captain_Obvious wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

And what I'm saying is that you may not always get that chance, and you shouldn't be able to save them every single time.  There should be times when a squadmate makes a decision, on their own, that puts the situation out of your control.  I know a lot of us gamers are control freaks, but a good story does not mesh with that paradigm; Mass Effect is aspiring to be a good story.

Bioware did that in DA2 and got soundly hammered for it.   Anders does his thing?  Hawke can't stop it.  Orsino goes starkers?  Hawke can't stop it.  Sebastian leaves party?  Hawke can't stop it.  You're saying that Bioware is damned if they do, damned if they don't.  They can either give the player agency and ****** off the story/drama purists, or they can withhold agency from the player and ****** off the RPG purists. 

Yes DA2 sucked. But that is because it went overboard with it and in the process, made Hawke and CO. look incompetent.

That is not what I am asking for. I am only asking for one of these situation with the squad, with every other time them being able to get out of harms reach. And in a way that does not make the squad less terrible.

[Athayniel]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Really?  As a romantic epic, Lord of the Rings gives all of its heroes/good guys their just deserts.  King Theoden wanted to redeem himself and die in glory on the battlefield, so he got what he wanted.  Simple as that.  Same thing with Boromir.  This doesn't really apply to Mass Effect though, since its universe does have more verisimillitude that Middle Earth.

Sorry for arguing with you again :innocent:

I don't mind the arguing. Just the going in circles bit. And your views on Theoden's death are very interesting nonetheless.

[JeffZero]

Captain_Obvious wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Athayniel wrote...

Such a situation would only come about for the sake of "Drama!" Any situation with a forced death is written specifically for dramatic purposes. They don't get written by accident.

Yeah, fancy That. Drama in a narrative. You know, that thing that makes stories fun?

I hate drama.  I want all my squadmembers alive.  I really don't care what dramatic stuff happens to yours. 

Just give me the opportunity to lose a few squadmates without coming across as the galaxy's most incompetent commander and I'm happy.

[Biotic Sage]

Athayniel wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

Ah that would be my side.  Yes, because as a completionist, like most of the people on this forum, I am going to be doing every side mission, every loyalty quest, and be 100% ready for the Reapers.  And by the other argument's assertion, all of this should lead to roses and butterflies and everybody surviving, whereas I disagree.  So no, it's not a simple case of don't tread on me and I won't tread on you.

Yup, and at least I have voiced my own opinon that the mechanincs behind the SM were flawed. That achieving the 'everyone lives' ending only required, as you've pointed out, a completionist mindset, and that making the choices involved in the outcome of the mission should have been tied in to the action taking place at the time just as much as your squad choices. One example I gave being Tali dying in the ducts because Shepard couldn't open the valves quickly enough. I believe in the original mission it causes a critical mission failure if she dies, but what if it didn't? What if Tali just died because Shepard wasn't good enough?

I don't advocate completionism to be the solution to all problems. I want skill and strategy to be involved.

Ok, then I misunderstood.  That's at least better.  But I still think Shepard shouldn't be a straight up god.  Even Achilles had weaknesses and made mistakes, even though he was the best fighter there was, and I liken Shepard to his demi-god status.

I definitely think your paradigm is waayy better than the SM's.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 11 octobre 2011 - 11:15 .

[Hathur]

JeffZero wrote...

I hate drama.  I want all my squadmembers alive.  I really don't care what dramatic stuff happens to yours.

Just give me the opportunity to lose a few squadmates without coming across as the galaxy's most incompetent commander and I'm happy.

 ... I can see it now, "Commander Magoo."

Modifié par Hathur, 11 octobre 2011 - 11:16 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Saphra Deden: Just as an note, you're not using the word drama as Aristotle originally intended its use. (But it's alright - must people aren't.)

What you "seem" to be desiring is melodrama. You are suggesting that things be written with the express purpose of appealing to a specific emotion - and you seem to want it done in an exaggerated fashion.

- I want to feel tension - so someone must DIE!

There are many ways of achieving tension (just an example of one emotion) without being so overt.

===

Also - any searching for "realism" has nothing inherently to do with drama.

Drama may include bad things occurring, but not all bad things that occur are dramatic.

====

@Athayniel: Not everything is for drama. The passing of Theodin King is simply a transition.

It also happens to be a touching scene - but I don't believe it's main purpose is for the drama.

The purpose it served - was to put a punctuation on a man who had utterly redeemed his life.

It does also serve the purpose of underscoring the Witch King's power - since, before this - we really don't see the Witch King "do" anything. We are "told" that he's a devastating force prior to this - but this is "the" example in the books of what the force means.

He is an ancient king - seduced by a Ring of Power - utterly corrupt, and to show this, he lays waste to a redeemed king - courageous and pure. His act is one of utter blasphemy.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 11 octobre 2011 - 11:17 .

[JeffZero]

Hathur wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

I hate drama.  I want all my squadmembers alive.  I really don't care what dramatic stuff happens to yours.

Just give me the opportunity to lose a few squadmates without coming across as the galaxy's most incompetent commander and I'm happy.

 ... I can see it now, "Commander Magoo."

Yes, indeed... 

[Athayniel]

AwesomeName wrote...

Maybe nothing, I guess.  Maybe it did just add more drama to an already dramatic situation - I think that's a good thing though...  Why is adding more drama bad?  A lot of people want drama, to feel something, to be moved, when they get into a story.  And most in the audience are bound to feel more moved by Theoden dieing compared to random knight 12-48.

Oh certainly, but different people have different thresholds at which more drama just becomes tiring instead of stimulating. And the specific flavour of drama which is acceptable is very personal and subjective too. I'm not big on death myself as you may have guessed, but I like romantic drama quite a lot, heartache and all that good stuff which I'm sure a lot of folks find enbearably sickening.

I want you to get your drama. Just not so as I have to play through it too.

[JeffZero]

Athayniel wrote...

AwesomeName wrote...

Maybe nothing, I guess.  Maybe it did just add more drama to an already dramatic situation - I think that's a good thing though...  Why is adding more drama bad?  A lot of people want drama, to feel something, to be moved, when they get into a story.  And most in the audience are bound to feel more moved by Theoden dieing compared to random knight 12-48.

Oh certainly, but different people have different thresholds at which more drama just becomes tiring instead of stimulating. And the specific flavour of drama which is acceptable is very personal and subjective too. I'm not big on death myself as you may have guessed, but I like romantic drama quite a lot, heartache and all that good stuff which I'm sure a lot of folks find enbearably sickening.

I want you to get your drama. Just not so as I have to play through it too.

I'm one of those who tends to find most romantic drama pretty boring. But yeah, likewise -- I want you to get what you want while I get what I want. I'd love for there to be the option to keep everyone alive so that you, Cheez, and other likeminded forumites can go that route every playthrough if you so desire. I just want my preferred style of storytelling deliverable as well.

[Someone With Mass]

JeffZero wrote...

Hathur wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

I hate drama.  I want all my squadmembers alive.  I really don't care what dramatic stuff happens to yours.

Just give me the opportunity to lose a few squadmates without coming across as the galaxy's most incompetent commander and I'm happy.

 ... I can see it now, "Commander Magoo."

Yes, indeed... 

I was thinking more of Cobra Commander, but that works too.  

[Arcadian Legend]

JeffZero wrote...

Hathur wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

I hate drama.  I want all my squadmembers alive.  I really don't care what dramatic stuff happens to yours.

Just give me the opportunity to lose a few squadmates without coming across as the galaxy's most incompetent commander and I'm happy.

 ... I can see it now, "Commander Magoo."

Yes, indeed... 

Oh, lawd.  :happy:

[Biotic Sage]

JeffZero wrote...

Athayniel wrote...

AwesomeName wrote...

Maybe nothing, I guess.  Maybe it did just add more drama to an already dramatic situation - I think that's a good thing though...  Why is adding more drama bad?  A lot of people want drama, to feel something, to be moved, when they get into a story.  And most in the audience are bound to feel more moved by Theoden dieing compared to random knight 12-48.

Oh certainly, but different people have different thresholds at which more drama just becomes tiring instead of stimulating. And the specific flavour of drama which is acceptable is very personal and subjective too. I'm not big on death myself as you may have guessed, but I like romantic drama quite a lot, heartache and all that good stuff which I'm sure a lot of folks find enbearably sickening.

I want you to get your drama. Just not so as I have to play through it too.

I'm one of those who tends to find most romantic drama pretty boring. But yeah, likewise -- I want you to get what you want while I get what I want. I'd love for there to be the option to keep everyone alive so that you, Cheez, and other likeminded forumites can go that route every playthrough if you so desire. I just want my preferred style of storytelling deliverable as well.

Yeah, well said Jeff.  If there IS a way for us to have both, while not disrespecting us completionists/kick-ass combat experts, then that would be great.  I just can't think of what that way would be.

[Athayniel]

JeffZero wrote...

I'm one of those who tends to find most romantic drama pretty boring. But yeah, likewise -- I want you to get what you want while I get what I want. I'd love for there to be the option to keep everyone alive so that you, Cheez, and other likeminded forumites can go that route every playthrough if you so desire. I just want my preferred style of storytelling deliverable as well.

I can always count on John Crichton to be the voice of reason. With a nuclear bomb strapped to his chest. And multiple dead man switches. We each deserve the story we want.

[JeffZero]

Athayniel wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

I'm one of those who tends to find most romantic drama pretty boring. But yeah, likewise -- I want you to get what you want while I get what I want. I'd love for there to be the option to keep everyone alive so that you, Cheez, and other likeminded forumites can go that route every playthrough if you so desire. I just want my preferred style of storytelling deliverable as well.

I can always count on John Crichton to be the voice of reason. With a nuclear bomb strapped to his chest. And multiple dead man switches. We each deserve the story we want.

Damn straight. 

[Biotic Sage]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Saphra Deden: Just as an note, you're not using the word drama as Aristotle originally intended its use. (But it's alright - must people aren't.)

What you "seem" to be desiring is melodrama. You are suggesting that things be written with the express purpose of appealing to a specific emotion - and you seem to want it done in an exaggerated fashion.

No, now you are making a strawman.

But strawmen are so easy to BURN.  Haha

BTW, you are making an appeal to logic...to someone who is making a logical fallacy.  PARADOX>

[sorentoft]

JeffZero wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

sorentoft wrote...
Honestly, I just never geared, used or talked to Kaidan because I knew I was going to kill him later in the game. That is in all my ME1 playthroughs except the first. That's no fun.

That is your loss. I still talk to Ashley in my playthroughs. Even through she is going to die. Does not mean I can't appreciate the character she has.

I don't see the point in it. He is going to blow up anyway.

Meh.... Why should I care about king Theodon. He's gonna die anyway.

Meh.... Why should I care about Sirius Black or Dumbledor. They are going to die anyway.

Meh.... Why should I care about Darth vader. He is going to die anyway.

Meh.... Why should I care about the story anway?

None of those stories were written for an interactive media.

But they're all well written -- just like Mass Effect. (Well to be fair I have little familiarity with Harry Potter. But otherwise.)

I don't see the relevance here. Talking to Kaidan despite him dying on a file of mine is the same as hearing Theoden and Vader speak with the same prior knowledge. I'm definitely with Lizardviking here.

The relevance is that we have an actual effect of what is going on in the story, and that is what makes computer games compelling as a media. It is interactive in contrast to movies and books. The same rules do not apply (not even to movies and books) when you are to tell a good story.

[Medhia Nox]

@Saphra Deden - no, you're just wrong.

@Biotic Sage - there is very little, educated use of logic in Saphra's arguments.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 12 octobre 2011 - 12:50 .

[sorentoft]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Biotic Sage - there is very little, educated use of logic in Saphra's arguments.

*snicker* You know I had a fun talk about grammar the other day, especially about how commas can obscure the meaning of a sentence.

Modifié par sorentoft, 12 octobre 2011 - 01:01 .

[Enmystic]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...
And, another thing. Perhaps "realistic" is the wrong word.

It is the wrong word when science fiction is the genre we're talking about.

Death isn't the only way to express drama.  Characters not getting along, hopes, fears, love, revenge, failures or the threat of failures, etc.  These can all be used for drama.  I understand death's place in drama, but I don't feel death is always necessary for a story to be dramatic, meaningful or good.  How about dramatic irony?  When the player knows something that the characters don't.  Stuff like that makes me squirm.

Just my input on drama.

Modifié par Enmystic, 12 octobre 2011 - 02:05 .

[onelifecrisis]

Finally got around to readint teh wot.

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Okay, here comes my weird and creepy sleep-deprived wall of text of the week.

I was doing a little reflecting earlier about how I'm paragon like 75% of the time and no one ever dies in the Suicide Mission.  I asked myself, "Why the hell do I keep doing this?  It's unrealistic and stupid to save the galaxy by being a nice person, and coming out of a mission like that unscathed borders on ridiculous."

And then I realized, hey, it's because it's unrealistic that I do it in the first place.

Spoiler alert: Real life sucks.  Every day, we have to face how powerless we are, how often we screw up, how bad things will keep happening to good people no matter how hard we try to stop it.  Sure, we can contribute our hearts and souls to good causes, work until our backs break to make things better, and offer all the help and comfort to the ones we love, but ultimately, the happy endings don't last.  The bad guys stay in power, the good guys get shoved to the wayside, and we retreat into our religions and philosophies to try to make sense of it all and make it hurt less.  Pessimistic, I know.  I do try hard (and should try harder), but really, I can't get over how insignificant I am in the grand scheme of things.

SSRIs make that **** go away better than ME2 does.

AdmiralCheez wrote...

So then this game comes along.  It has cool aliens, good voice acting, and you get to shoot people.  Awesome, sign me up.  But then when I played it a certain way, I couldn't help but feel a little better about myself.

Basically, Mass Effect (2) offers an elaborate fantasy in which the player has the power to save the world in his or her own way.  It gave me a mature, deep, and (despite the sci-fi thing) incredibly realistic environment in which I could take those kindergarten morals I'd never quite let go of and put them in the hands of an unstoppable and charismatic space marine.

Sure, I can't stop genocide or corporate corruption.  I can't intervene when a close friend is about to get seriously hurt.  I can't fight wars or sway entire populations or protect the innocent.  But Shepard can.

And even though it's all just pretend, I can't help but think the experience has been a little therapeutic.

I know it's silly to think I can have sunshine and bunnies in the face of a galactic apocalypse, but I want 'em anyway.  I want to keep playing pretend, to screw the rules and do the impossible, to protect the people I care about in a way I can't protect them in real life.

So if the fine folks at Bioware have squeezed in one little possible endgame scenario in which the crew makes it out alive again and I don't have to basically murder my space-BFFs to win, even if there's like a 10% chance of getting that ending, I'd be eternally grateful.  Too late to really impact the story at this point, sure, but if the tweets are to be believed, I'm going to spend half the game sobbing anyway, so is wanting to watch the credits roll with a stupid, satisfied grin on my face too much to ask?

Do you really think there's any chance that you'll be denied that ending? I say: no chance. BW might manage to pluck up the guts to make that ending difficult to achieve, but it'll be there. I'm sure, FWIW.

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Because that's one of the reasons I keep playing these games: Shepard is the hero I wished I could be back in kindergarten, and both the kid and the adult in me would like to see hundreds of hours and dollars conclude with a happy ending.  Granted, I'll get over it if it doesn't, but still, I'm more likely to play it again if it makes me feel good when I'm done, right?

And if you think this rant is weird, blame Bioware for making a game good enough for me to care this much.  It's hard to get people to care this much about the fate of a few lumps of programming with voices attached.  What strange voodoo are you crazy bastards practicing, anyway?  I'll bet you can make a god damn plastic bottle that people would get emotionally attached to, sheesh...

Also, I'm a selfish, socially reclusive crybaby in desperate need of therapy.  That could also attribute to any and all WTF-ness of this thread.

SSRIs. You know you want to. Why look for answers when a pill can delete the questions!

AdmiralCheez wrote...

OVER TO YOU, MY LOVELIES: What weird, childish fantasies has Mass fulfilled for you, if any?  Do you think happy endings and No One Left Behinds belong in a game like ME3?  If not, why?  Would you accept that sort of thing if it was optional/difficult to achieve?  How do you want to feel when the credits roll?

EDIT: Bolded the point of the thread since some people think I want to avoid every single dark and gloomy aspect of a war story altogether.  Nope, just no completely forced squad deaths.

If happy endings don't belong in a space opera franchise like ME then where the hell DO they belong? That said, unlike you I do like to do "realistic" (ahaha) playthroughs in which people die, and I think ME3 should provide those as well.

[Captain_Obvious]

No one is ever going to convince me that I deserve to loose part of my squad for the sake of someone else's idea of what makes a good game, good drama, or sufficient realism. My good game includes an uber-happy ending.