4309 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Athayniel wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I have been reading your post, and no, your position is not clear on that.
What you're doing is evasion, trying to pass the ball back to me.

Provide an example of how it can be done.

You obviously haven't or you would have read where I say the only thing I am asking for is a chance to fight for my squadmates, I'm not asking to prevent the millions of deaths that will occur, or to negate the loss of planets or fleets. Only to have the chance to keep my squaddies alive.

And I have also posted earlier an example of how the SM could have been made different in which Tali would die in the ducts if Shepard could not fight his/her way to the next valve in time, but instead of her death being a critical mission failure it was just her death. That would be an example of fighting for her survival and player skill and choices being the factors going into that.

So no. You haven't been reading my posts.

Yes, I have. But you haven't been reading mine, because at no point did you adress any of my issues.

Again, the only way for Tali to die in that scenario would be for me (Shepard) to fail deliberately.

[Athayniel]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Nobody said you shouldn't have control over Shepard's choices and actions. However you should not have control over the outcomes or the nature of the choices themselves.

You can choose who Shepard sends into the vents, but you can't choose whether or not there is a way out for the person who you send in there. (ex: the vents is a one-way trip and everyone knows it at the get-go. Now pick who is going to die)

Yay, the false dichotomy again, because we haven't discussed that before at all. I also like how you ignored the part of my post where I say that I want that much control because it is my story as much as it is BioWare's.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Squadmates dying for no good reason beyond drama is not what I would call a good suspense.

Any reason for you will be "no good reason".

"He who tries to defend everything defends nothing."

That's the Alliance Navy's motto and it should be true for Mass Effect.

QFT.

[Athayniel]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yes, I have. But you haven't been reading mine, because at no point did you adress any of my issues.

Again, the only way for Tali to die in that scenario would be for me (Shepard) to fail deliberately.

I have stated in no uncertain terms that I want you to get your ending. I hope the game is implemented in such a way that your Shepard can get such an ending without being a derp or failing deliberately. The example I gave you was to emphasise that I would prefer these outcomes to be tied to player skill and strategy and choice. It is possible to fail such a scenario without it being deliberate.

Modifié par Athayniel, 13 octobre 2011 - 01:37 .

[GodWood]

Athayniel wrote...
Like many others before you in this thread you seem convinced that the OP and the proponents of 'Earning Your Happy Ending' are asking for squadmates to gain plot armour.

Earning your happy ending doesn't show how Shepard can fail.
Earning your happy ending doesn't show how tough the war is.
And earning your happy ending doesn't show that Shepard can't always win.

All 'earning your happy ending' does is show that despite impossible odds Shepard can charge through unscathed and still live happily ever after with no losses.

[jamesp81]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
Here's what I want.  The ability to:

1.  Save Earth
2.  Destroy the Reapers permanently
3.  Prevent any races from being completely exterminated
4.  Keep all my crew alive

Anyone who thinks I shouldn't be given a path of choices that results in this can go die in a huge ****ing fire:devil:

That's what I don't want. Anyone who thinks this should be possible can go die in an even bigger fire.

Fortunately for me, Bioware has a history of allowing a 'best possible' scenario ending for most of their games.

Most of the human population likes heroic stories where the hero rescues the girl, kills the badguy, and saves the world.  It makes for damned good storytelling, a fact that Bioware is likely quite well aware of.

The fact that you not only don't want a full heroic ending, but want to deny others the same, smacks strongly of a large sense of entitlement where your fellow gamers are concerned.

Wait..

And you denying me my ending is NOT a large sense of entiltement?
Do explain to me how that works...
Because wating the cake and eaiting it too, does sound very self-entilted from where I'm sitting.

Not to mention that I never said you can't kill the bad guy, kiss the girl and save the wrold. I just said that you can't save everyone you like. But I guess anything less that perfection is not heroic enough for you?

I'm not denying you your ending.  You entire supposition is wrong.

I'm perfectly fine with BW putting in many endings, one of which will likely suit you, as long as they provide one that suits those that think like me as well.

[Lotion Soronarr]

GodWood wrote...

Athayniel wrote...
No. I want to fight for their lives.

Even if they're deaths are inevitable you can still try 

I want a chance to save them not a guarantee. Forced death in an interactive story is the cheap and lazy option.

Why is it cheap/lazy and why isn't the death of any other character's cheap/lazy?
Why do you limit this to companions?

Because he likes the companions. Becuise of his sense of self-entiltement?

He wants choices, but only if the choices are to his liking.

[jamesp81]

SandTrout wrote...

@Biotic Sage,

While some of the decisions are relatively obvious ones, some are less so. My first time through the SM, I lost Mordin because I put him through the pipes. After the fact, I could look back and see "Ah, that is what they meant," but before knowing how how their jargon translated, it was not all that obvious.

I lost Mordin first time as well, for different reasons though.

I picked the right people for vents, biotic bubble, and fire team leaders.  But at the end, I sent Zaeed to escort the crew and then I took Grunt and Garrus to the final battle, so I made ALL the wrong choices about who to leave on the line.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Athayniel wrote...

Again, I'm not arguing against my squadmates dying. I'm arguing against it being done without my ability to affect it. I'm not asking for plot armour. I'm asking to have the chance to save them through my skill and my choices and my strategy. Because this is my story as much as it is BioWare's. A stance they readily agree with.

No, it's not your story or your universe. It's their really. You're just along for the ride.

And you ability to affect everything is self-entiltement.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Athayniel wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yes, I have. But you haven't been reading mine, because at no point did you adress any of my issues.

Again, the only way for Tali to die in that scenario would be for me (Shepard) to fail deliberately.

I have stated in no uncertain terms that I want you to get your ending. I hope the game is implemented in such a way that your Shepard can get such an ending without being a derp or failing deliberately. The example I gave you was to emphasise that I would prefer these outcomes to be tied to player skill and strategy and choice. It is possible to fail such a scenario without it being deliberate.

Again, I want for both me and Shep to give it our best and still not be able to save everyone.

I want choices both hard and personal. I want choices Sheappard(or any person) wouldn't want to make.
You don't want such choices.

[jamesp81]

Saphra Deden wrote...

People like you have no love for suspense.

Actually, I adore it.

I love to look at a hopeless situation and wonder aloud how the goodguys are going to get out of this one.

And when the solution is well written, it's pretty awesome.

[Lotion Soronarr]

jamesp81 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Wait..

And you denying me my ending is NOT a large sense of entiltement?
Do explain to me how that works...
Because wating the cake and eaiting it too, does sound very self-entilted from where I'm sitting.

Not to mention that I never said you can't kill the bad guy, kiss the girl and save the wrold. I just said that you can't save everyone you like. But I guess anything less that perfection is not heroic enough for you?

I'm not denying you your ending.  You entire supposition is wrong.

I'm perfectly fine with BW putting in many endings, one of which will likely suit you, as long as they provide one that suits those that think like me as well.

You are.
Because they are both NOT COMPATIBLE. How many times must I repeat that.

you have yet to demonstrate it is even possible for them to co-exist.

[jamesp81]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Athayniel wrote...

They can create the threat of death without it being forced. You're making my points for me! =P

No, there is no real fear when you know you can always load your save and do it over again.

It's like dying in say... Oblivion or Fallout 3, or any modern game. There is no penalty, no fear. If you die you just start over from where you were a minute or two ago.

And that's the privilege you get for plunking down your $60 USD to purchase the software.

Perhaps you think a player playing Oblivion should have to start from the beginning if he gets killed in the final battle with Mehrunes Dagon?  No one would play the game if that were the case, as no one has enough time to devote to something like that.

[Athayniel]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Again, I want for both me and Shep to give it our best and still not be able to save everyone.

I want choices both hard and personal. I want choices Sheappard(or any person) wouldn't want to make.
You don't want such choices.

I have never said I didn't and have in fact stated I would choose against saving my squaddies if forced to make those choices. My contention is that most of those times those choices aren't choices at all, and many times do not benefit the story in any meaningful way, serving only to add melodrama to an already dramatic situation. You would know this if you bothered to read any of my posts. I have said the same thing multiple times.

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

You are the Paragon example of why moderm games suck.

There are no consquences for choices. No surprising outcomes anymore. You get what you expect and if you don't get what you want you just re-do it over and over again. It's bland, it's boring.

Excuse me for not wanting something that just sucks and serves no other purpose but to annoy me.

Also, by your logic, I should just restart every playthrough every time I die or just deal with a bad surprise happening (like another Virmire) simply because I did a mistake that I didn't like the outcome of and then I should never try to do it differently. God forbid that I might try to correct those mistakes to enjoy the game a bit more according to my own preferences.

Quit whining about outcomes you have no clue of. Then again, that's what most people on this forum do. Whine about how so few choices in the middle game mattered when the main goal is to stop the Reapers, which is available in the last game.

And you really need to expand your views beyond "It's Paragon's fault"

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 13 octobre 2011 - 02:53 .

[jamesp81]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I've been playing video games for about 25 years - and I've never felt fear from any of them.

Even games that only had three lives and then you had to start all over - you could still "start all over."

====

And - everyone isn't living just because 10 heroes survive. Pressly has died, Kaidan/Ashley has died, X amount of human colonists have died, 300,000 Batarians have died, a not insignificant number of indoctrinated individuals have died, for those that think machines are relevant - a whole faction of Geth might have died, not to mention that your entire team "could" have died in the last game.

Killing Shepard's friends is a stretch for a cheap emotion - having Shepard's choices lead to possible friend deaths is a much more interactive and intimate way to carry through with these things (but that must leave room for no deaths).

====

Godwood - the conclusion of your statement is not a fact. 

I could just as easily suggest that if you feel rage - then you should go write your own story or gain some perspective on what's important in life. "Rage" should not be wasted on a video game.

I can agree with this.

Even if Shepard and his crew all survive, at least 300k batarians are dead, and millions of humans on Earth are dead, right from the outset.  Millions.  It could be billions before it's over with.

That does make for a fairly weighty scenario.

[Athayniel]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You are.
Because they are both NOT COMPATIBLE. How many times must I repeat that.

you have yet to demonstrate it is even possible for them to co-exist.

Except that we have, several times. The caveat being that it would be the ending to your Shepard's story, not the ending to all Shepards' stories. Insisting that your ending be the only or even the happiest possible ending is entitlement on your part.

Modifié par Athayniel, 13 octobre 2011 - 02:07 .

[Athayniel]

jamesp81 wrote...

I can agree with this.

Even if Shepard and his crew all survive, at least 300k batarians are dead, and millions of humans on Earth are dead, right from the outset.  Millions.  It could be billions before it's over with.

That does make for a fairly weighty scenario.

Unfortunately it seems all those deaths don't count.

[jamesp81]

Athayniel wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I think the Arrival is proof that Bioware is afraid now to let their players suffer any loss in the game. Arrival is proof of that because rather than making the choice a difficult one that would pull at our heart strings, Bioware made sure the planet we were destroying was on occupied by a species that is known for slavery, piracy, and  general nastiness.

We didn't even get to see the people we were killing either. No great cities, no happy families.

It was a total copout.

I would have hit that button even if it had been a planetful of asari. And I can tell you my Shepard is suffering for that choice just as much now even though it's a planetful of batarians. Call it a cop-out for your Shepard if you wish. It wasn't for mine.

I agree with this.  The counter on the screen that counted up the exact population of the world really brought that home.

[Xilizhra]

I will admit that Arrival may have been helped by the fact that their deaths were all instantaneous.

[jamesp81]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Wait..

And you denying me my ending is NOT a large sense of entiltement?
Do explain to me how that works...
Because wating the cake and eaiting it too, does sound very self-entilted from where I'm sitting.

Not to mention that I never said you can't kill the bad guy, kiss the girl and save the wrold. I just said that you can't save everyone you like. But I guess anything less that perfection is not heroic enough for you?

I'm not denying you your ending.  You entire supposition is wrong.

I'm perfectly fine with BW putting in many endings, one of which will likely suit you, as long as they provide one that suits those that think like me as well.

You are.
Because they are both NOT COMPATIBLE. How many times must I repeat that.

you have yet to demonstrate it is even possible for them to co-exist.

You can repeat until you die of asphyxiation.  Doesn't make it true.

[jamesp81]

Athayniel wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

I can agree with this.

Even if Shepard and his crew all survive, at least 300k batarians are dead, and millions of humans on Earth are dead, right from the outset.  Millions.  It could be billions before it's over with.

That does make for a fairly weighty scenario.

Unfortunately it seems all those deaths don't count.

Maybe not to them.  For me, the idea that Reapers are smoothying the homeworld of the human race presents a problem that I have to solve.

[jamesp81]

I am going to laugh for a long time at all the rage on this forum when ME3 comes out, and one of the endings is 'sunshine and bunnies' as it's always been with Bioware games.

[AdmiralCheez]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The reaper invasion is super-extra-hard.

And you don't get to tell me what I enjoy and do not enjoy. I enjoy a good, deep story. I enjoy a well, crafted, immersive world.

As for your own explanations and wishes, yes...yes he does.
AS I said before - I'm RP'ing a samrt and cargin Sheppard. He WILL try to save everyone. He will search for the best outcome. He will take his time (if he can)

If there is a sensible way to get the perfect ending, then yes, my Shepprd would be an idiot. Hence, not satisfying.

All that BS of "I'll have to work hard for it" is irrelevant. Because it's not a matter of "working hard". My Sheppard will work hard. And by that logic will get the same ending as you.

Don't you get it?

Yeah, I get it.

I get that you aren't going to understand where I'm coming from because you've apparently never seen unavoidable failure up-close.

I'm not saying that you're some sheltered, naive little cupcake or anything.  But I was clamoiring for the same stuff you are just a year ago.  I challenged Bioware to "make me cry" in ME3, to slap me in the face with "real" failure, to make me "feel" the gravity of the situation personally.

And then real life went into b*tch mode.  Opportunities were missed, people died, and it became disturbingly apparent that the person I love most in my life wasn't going to get better, in fact would only get worse, and I could do nothing but watch.

The difference between Mass Effect and your average work of fiction is that you are actually getting to know your teammates personally.  Unlike characters in a movie or book, you can talk to them, love them, protect them, guide them to find innner peace and do good in the world--gain their absolute loyalty, have them completely trust you--in some strange 30-hour (60-hour) heroic fantasy in space.  Because they count on you to see them through to the end, you start to care about them--they are your responsibility.

Being able to be more than human, to come to the rescue of the people you care about no matter what...  That's exactly the kind of escapism I need.  Call it pathetic if you want, but having that power, even if it's not real, feels better than the most well-crafted story you could ever tell.

[Medhia Nox]

@Saphra Deden: I know you weren't, but you keep saying "video games" or "games" and what you mean is: "The **** I make up in my head."

"You are the Paragon example of why moderm games suck." Saphra Deden

You failed to answer - where is the mythical "games with weighty decisions" era? What time period? What system? What series of games bearing such gravity that you have a genuinely difficult time making the decisions and you 'feel' the weight of them.

Some people say that the Dragon Age and Mass Effect series have provided them with deeply moving moments. Who are you to refute that? I did not feel what they did - but I have had games that have made me feel the gravity of the proposed situation.

Name these magical games, the storytelling style which, Bioware has betrayed in their move toward "Paragon games".