4309 réponses à ce sujet

[Prince Zeel]

STILL? What else is there to say?

He wants the pansy ending, we all know that'll ruin all the endings. Thus discussion over.

What's so hard about this, BSN? Jesus lord mercy.

[Medhia Nox]

@Dean_The_Young: "When the death of a character is optional-failure like in the suicide mission, it really has less weight than an absolute-scripted death."

I'm the opposite here - if something "must" happen, then I am resolved to accept it.

Virmire I said: We'll, one of you have got to go - and since in my mind Kaidan and the bomb are more important than Ashley on a tower - I save Kaidan.

Arrival was a total waste on me. It was as deep as reading the prologue of a novel: "The world has burned - evil has won." OKay, big deal - now where are we going from here?

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 13 octobre 2011 - 11:34 .

[Someone With Mass]

Prince Zeel wrote...

STILL? What else is there to say?

He wants the pansy ending, we all know that'll ruin all the endings. Thus discussion over.

What's so hard about this, BSN? Jesus lord mercy.

Here's a proposition: Either contribute to the thread or ****** off with your lame comments that are just a waste of space, you pathetic troll.

[KotorEffect3]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Athayniel wrote...

Yay, the false dichotomy again, because we haven't discussed that before at all. I also like how you ignored the part of my post where I say that I want that much control because it is my story as much as it is BioWare's.

No it is not your story and it never should be. Catering to the fans to such a degree is a bad thing.

Weren't you renegades crying about having to fight against Cerberus and not having the option to join them?

[KotorEffect3]

Saphra Deden wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Weren't you renegades crying about having to fight against Cerberus and not having the option to join them?

Some might, but I'm not. My only beef with it (was) that it didn't make sense. Though I actually think it makes sense enough now. Albeit, since I've become rather disillusioned with the protagonist of ME3 I've lost a lot of my drive to play it.

Fair enough though I have seen other renagade players complain about it.

[AdmiralCheez]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The thing is, I disagree. I don't feel guilty about having to leave a Virmire survivor to die at all, therefore the other emotions can have weight. Best of all possible worlds.

I didn't feel guilty about Virmire, either.  In fact, I rolled my eyes at the plot being stupid.  It was jumping up and down all like HEY LOOK AT ME I'M DRAMATIC.  So I let it kill people so it would shut up and leave me alone.  Leaving Ash/Kaidan stung a little (mostly because of the damn music), but it was more forced and tedious than anything else.

You know what got me, though?  The conversation with Ashley afterwards.  When she says she should have been the one to die, when she talks about how useless she feels against the Reapers, when she expresses her guilt, then I feel it.

Whereas while I (don't) feel guilty about the Council, in ME2 there was a rather heavy-handed 'better' and 'worse' treatment for saving them or not, even though leaving them to die was well called for at the end of ME1.

That cinematic/Udina's speech pretty much foreshadowed the hell out of how things would suck more if you let them die.  And I really don't know how you can watch this cinematic and not feel like an ass.

"Commander...  They've closed the channel..."

Me: FFFFUUUUU---

Should have been more 50/50, I agree.  There shouldn't have been a "better" solution.

When the death of a character is optional-failure like in the suicide mission, it really has less weight than an absolute-scripted death. Having someone die at just about any phase is because you chose the 'bad' option, while there was a 'good' option. About the only place where a death is beyond clear-control is the Hold the Line score... and that kills poor Mordin for no clear or dramatic reason at all.

I dunno, Wrex's death was handled really well, and that one was optional...

I think the SM's deaths were made to suck on purpose.  They wanted you to get everyone out alive, I think.  Even offered a big, shiny achievement.

The problem you come to with this is Bioware's capability for actually having a good reconciliation sub-plot. Which is, in my estimation, low.

Poorly written reconciliation is better than poorly written plot death.

The reason why 'random strangers versus your love interest' delimmas rarely work is because, well, when you can keep your love interest (and that includes a love-redemption), very few people care about who gets the shaft even if they 'lost' the mission. Kelly Chambers dying has more weight than Horizon Colonist dying because one is personal and the other is, well, not.

Then make it personal.  Give us a General Pickett moment.

"We're secure on this end.  Is the Plot Device safe?"

*silence*

"This is Shepard.  Come in.  Is the Plot Device secure?"

*silence, static, then an answer*

"... This is General Pretty Cool NPC.  The Plot Device... gone.  My men... everything's gone."

*LI and othe squadmates look at you in horror*

"General, what happened?"

"They're GONE, Shepard!  Hear me?  GONE."

Squadmate: "My god... an entire division..."

Other Squadmate: "And without that Plot Device..."

Shep: "There probably wasn't anything we could have done.  We should get out of here."

*cue fight with LI*

I prefer my space operas like I prefer my Gundam anime: with lots of angst and a bloody victory in which only a few survive.

I might not be the best opinion.

Argh, Gundam.  What a bunch of emo, melodramatic BS.  Needs more robot fights and less filler with whiny pretty-boys in-between.

FullMetal Alchemist?  That's some good anime right there.  Not Brotherhood, though (it's just not the same!).

I support the Conrad Verner interrupt.

If the player presses the interrupt, Conrad Verner comes out, kicks ass, and makes explosions... and Shepard breaks the fourth wall to look at the camera and go 'wtf'?

Press X to Conrad.  Yes.

[nitefyre410]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The thing is, I disagree. I don't feel guilty about having to leave a Virmire survivor to die at all, therefore the other emotions can have weight. Best of all possible worlds.

I didn't feel guilty about Virmire, either.  In fact, I rolled my eyes at the plot being stupid.  It was jumping up and down all like HEY LOOK AT ME I'M DRAMATIC.  So I let it kill people so it would shut up and leave me alone.  Leaving Ash/Kaidan stung a little (mostly because of the damn music), but it was more forced and tedious than anything else.

You know what got me, though?  The conversation with Ashley afterwards.  When she says she should have been the one to die, when she talks about how useless she feels against the Reapers, when she expresses her guilt, then I feel it.

Whereas while I (don't) feel guilty about the Council, in ME2 there was a rather heavy-handed 'better' and 'worse' treatment for saving them or not, even though leaving them to die was well called for at the end of ME1.

That cinematic/Udina's speech pretty much foreshadowed the hell out of how things would suck more if you let them die.  And I really don't know how you can watch this cinematic and not feel like an ass.

"Commander...  They've closed the channel..."

Me: FFFFUUUUU---

Should have been more 50/50, I agree.  There shouldn't have been a "better" solution.

When the death of a character is optional-failure like in the suicide mission, it really has less weight than an absolute-scripted death. Having someone die at just about any phase is because you chose the 'bad' option, while there was a 'good' option. About the only place where a death is beyond clear-control is the Hold the Line score... and that kills poor Mordin for no clear or dramatic reason at all.

I dunno, Wrex's death was handled really well, and that one was optional...

I think the SM's deaths were made to suck on purpose.  They wanted you to get everyone out alive, I think.  Even offered a big, shiny achievement.

The problem you come to with this is Bioware's capability for actually having a good reconciliation sub-plot. Which is, in my estimation, low.

Poorly written reconciliation is better than poorly written plot death.

The reason why 'random strangers versus your love interest' delimmas rarely work is because, well, when you can keep your love interest (and that includes a love-redemption), very few people care about who gets the shaft even if they 'lost' the mission. Kelly Chambers dying has more weight than Horizon Colonist dying because one is personal and the other is, well, not.

Then make it personal.  Give us a General Pickett moment.

"We're secure on this end.  Is the Plot Device safe?"

*silence*

"This is Shepard.  Come in.  Is the Plot Device secure?"

*silence, static, then an answer*

"... This is General Pretty Cool NPC.  The Plot Device... gone.  My men... everything's gone."

*LI and othe squadmates look at you in horror*

"General, what happened?"

"They're GONE, Shepard!  Hear me?  GONE."

Squadmate: "My god... an entire division..."

Other Squadmate: "And without that Plot Device..."

Shep: "There probably wasn't anything we could have done.  We should get out of here."

*cue fight with LI*

I prefer my space operas like I prefer my Gundam anime: with lots of angst and a bloody victory in which only a few survive.

I might not be the best opinion.

Argh, Gundam.  What a bunch of emo, melodramatic BS.  Needs more robot fights and less filler with whiny pretty-boys in-between.

FullMetal Alchemist?  That's some good anime right there.  Not Brotherhood, though (it's just not the same!).

I support the Conrad Verner interrupt.

If the player presses the interrupt, Conrad Verner comes out, kicks ass, and makes explosions... and Shepard breaks the fourth wall to look at the camera and go 'wtf'?

Press X to Conrad.  Yes.

 


You think  Gudam is bad just READ about Tomino earlier works - there is  reason why he is called and father of   "Kill'em  all" .  In one when you think it just can't get any worse... guesswhat  it does... the universe goes BOOM.   


And I agree and its given the  poor written character death across the board is bad and worse than Deus Ex Machina ending.  

[jeweledleah]

unnecessary character deaths just to create more drama make me want to strangle the writers. I'm looking at you, Joss Whendon, yes you >_>

[nitefyre410]

jeweledleah wrote...

unnecessary character deaths just to create more drama make me want to strangle the writers. I'm looking at you, Joss Whendon, yes you >_>

 


I agree -    "Death  Glare at  Claremount."  depending the how much I like the character it can go from  straggle to imma beat them with bag full of oranges and  a glare.   

Espically if the author  hands the character the idot ball and they forget just how badass they are.... 

[Golden Owl]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Imagine if Arrival had been played with Shepard not fighting indoctrinated Alliance soldiers, but Batarian Special Response commandos sent to stop the asteroid? Shepard's role isn't in restarting the project: Shepard is fighting dozens of people who are trying to stop a massacre. When Shepard is the agent of destruction, the role changes.

We could even have had a clearly sympathetic Batarian try and reason with Shepard throughout the fighting. Nods to Bring Down the Sky, appeals to backstory (this won't bring back your parents, Colonist!), and just about every reasonable appeal from someone who doesn't believe that the Reapers will be here right now, in three hours, if we don't blow up a populated planet immediately.

I brilliant alternative....would have made a blubbering mess of me......but the emotive point would have certainly been made.

[Yezdigerd]

Funny people bring up Arrival. I thought that is the perfect example of meaningless drama for the sake of it. 300k dead that will die no matter what you do. Creates no emotional investment whatsoever.

As I said before I thought the suicide mission would have been much better if the death checks had been much harder. Like even with every upgrade and and right decision there is a high probability someone would die.
Having to keep your fingers crossed that in this 5th replay all people will make it at last, would have a had great replay value as well.

[Someone With Mass]

jeweledleah wrote...

unnecessary character deaths just to create more drama make me want to strangle the writers. I'm looking at you, Joss Whendon, yes you >_>

I honestly felt nothing about Wash's death, because it came out of the blue with absolutely no build up.

"Oh, he's dead. Bummer."

[Prince Zeel]

I want this topic locked. it's spam now.

[Someone With Mass]

Yezdigerd wrote...
As I said before I thought the suicide mission would have been much better if the death checks had been much harder. Like even with every upgrade and and right decision there is a high probability someone would die.
Having to keep your fingers crossed that in this 5th replay all people will make it at last, would have a had great replay value as well.

I've heard that Mordin dies at the drop of a hat on the SM for some. That wouldn't motivate me for future playthroughs, if the teammates' fate rests on luck.

I can see where the appeal of a high probability of casualties comes from, though.

[jeweledleah]

Someone With Mass wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

unnecessary character deaths just to create more drama make me want to strangle the writers. I'm looking at you, Joss Whendon, yes you >_>

I honestly felt nothing about Wash's death, because it came out of the blue with absolutely no build up.

"Oh, he's dead. Bummer."

exactly.  well, I fell irritation with Joss.  I pretty much went - WTF, Joss?  what the hell was that all about?  and Paul Ballard was no better.  and honestly?  that's how Virmire felt to me as well.  WTF bioware?

[Prince Zeel]

It's not fair that topics of actual discussion get locked but this blasted thing stays open.

Lock please.

[Medhia Nox]

"Deaths should be unavoidable, but they should be up to the player." - that's a paradox.

What if I don't want any deaths?

[marshalleck]

Medhia Nox wrote...

"Deaths should be unavoidable, but they should be up to the player." - that's a paradox.

What if I don't want any deaths?

Too bad. Sometimes people die. Especially during war.