4309 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

@marshalleck: People always die actually.

@Saphra_Deden: And that makes something emotionally engaging for you? (It's a genuine question - not a criticism.)

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 14 octobre 2011 - 01:21 .

[Biotic Sage]

Medhia Nox wrote...

"Deaths should be unavoidable, but they should be up to the player." - that's a paradox.

What if I don't want any deaths?

That's not at all a paradox. 

A) There must be deaths
The player decides, either directly or indirectly, who/how the deaths will play out

As to your question: If you don't want any deaths then watch a romantic comedy.  Epic war stories are going to have death.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 14 octobre 2011 - 01:19 .

[Medhia Nox]

You guys travel in packs I see.

I've had plenty of deaths in my play through - and I've already listed them.

Since I don't have a bromance or a LI - I don't have some selfish connection to the fawning sycophants on the Normandy. Losing them is hardly "emotional".

The choice becomes a cold, calculating one (arguably making me a better commander) - based on the needs of the "team" and the functions already filled by others.

[Biotic Sage]

Medhia Nox wrote...

You guys travel in packs I see.

I've had plenty of deaths in my play through - and I've already listed them.

Since I don't have a bromance or a LI - I don't have some selfish connection to the fawning sycophants on the Normandy. Losing them is hardly "emotional".

The choice becomes a cold, calculating one (arguably making me a better commander) - based on the needs of the "team" and the functions already filled by others.

You are in the very small minority.  Squadmate deaths are going to be more meaningful to the vast majority of players than random NPCs you encounter or the numerous deaths that will occur offscreen.

As a commander, you would still need to make those calculated choices, whether you feel emotion from them or not, so I'm not sure what your point is.  It seems like you are agreeing, that there should not be an ending where everybody lives.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 14 octobre 2011 - 01:23 .

[marshalleck]

Medhia Nox wrote...

The choice becomes a cold, calculating one (arguably making me a better commander) - based on the needs of the "team" and the functions already filled by others.

Sounds good to me. Bioware: make it so.

[Medhia Nox]

Let me ask Biotic Sage, Saphra Deden, and Marshalleck - and your thought about Shepard letting himself die? I suppose you're against it? Is that not a double standard?

Would you be for it if you could - somehow - continue the game with just the rest of the crew (not viable with the way this game is designed).

[Biotic Sage]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Let me ask Biotic Sage, Saphra Deden, and Marshalleck - and your thought about Shepard letting himself die? I suppose you're against it? Is that not a double standard?

Would you be for it if you could - somehow - continue the game with just the rest of the crew (not viable with the way this game is designed).

If my Shepard had the opportunity to sacrifice himself instead of letting a squadmate take the hit, then he would.  I would be thrilled to have the opportunity to make that decision at the end game.  My idea of a true hero is someone willing to make the ultimate sacrifice; that's why my Warden didn't let Alistair kill the Arch Demon, he did it himself.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 14 octobre 2011 - 01:26 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Saphra_Deden: But I had finished everything before the Collectors took my crew - even Legion's loyalty mission - should I have simply tooled around the galaxy waiting for some timer to tick off (don't know what triggers their deaths) instead of rushing to the Collectors since that was where I was going anyway?

[KotorEffect3]

Squadmates will most likely be killable as they were in the first two games. However I don't want a speficific person to die no matter what every time. A virmire type situation is fine with me if you are forced to choose between squadmates but I don't want a situation where the same person dies in every playthrough because it is scripted that specific person will die every time.

Modifié par KotorEffect3, 14 octobre 2011 - 01:28 .

[Biotic Sage]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Squadmates will most likely be killable as they were in the first two games. However I don't want a speficific person to die no matter what every time. A virmire type situation is fine with me if you are forced to choose between squadmates but I don't want a situation where the same person dies in every playthrough because it is scripted that specific will die every time.

Agreed.  Your actions should dictate who dies or doesn't die, either by direct choice or inadvertantly.  But SOMEONE should bite it.  I think it's necessary for these kinds of stories.

[Biotic Sage]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Saphra_Deden: But I had finished everything before the Collectors took my crew - even Legion's loyalty mission - should I have simply tooled around the galaxy waiting for some timer to tick off?

No, what you should have done is grabbed the IFF as soon as possible. It was too mission critical to leave laying around out there. It was your only means of success so I'm curious as to why you delayed picking it up.

Yeah I picked it up right away.  In my first playthrough the Normandy crew/Kelly died because I prepared my team/ship to the optimum level for the mission.  None of my squadmates died.

[BlueMagitek]

Thane is likeliest to die, I mean, he's going to die soon anyway; if you have to choose someone to die, he's the obvious choice. >_>

[marshalleck]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Let me ask Biotic Sage, Saphra Deden, and Marshalleck - and your thought about Shepard letting himself die? I suppose you're against it? Is that not a double standard?

It would have to depend on the context. If it's some "noble sacrifice" thing where Shepard's throwing himself into the meatgrinder just to play at being a big guddam hero, then that would be pretty lame. But if for some reason he's the only one who can accomplish said task, and it will guarantee victory against the Reapers for good, then that's a compelling motivation.

It's too bad Bioware's notion of self-sacrifice always comes down to indulging the Paragon/light-side player's messianic-wannabe ego trip.

Modifié par marshalleck, 14 octobre 2011 - 01:32 .

[KotorEffect3]

Biotic Sage wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Squadmates will most likely be killable as they were in the first two games. However I don't want a speficific person to die no matter what every time. A virmire type situation is fine with me if you are forced to choose between squadmates but I don't want a situation where the same person dies in every playthrough because it is scripted that specific will die every time.

Agreed.  Your actions should dictate who dies or doesn't die, either by direct choice or inadvertantly.  But SOMEONE should bite it.  I think it's necessary for these kinds of stories.

And I am fine with that as long as I can save that person in a different playthrough and let someone else bite the dust just like Ash/Kaidan in ME 1.

[Biotic Sage]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Squadmates will most likely be killable as they were in the first two games. However I don't want a speficific person to die no matter what every time. A virmire type situation is fine with me if you are forced to choose between squadmates but I don't want a situation where the same person dies in every playthrough because it is scripted that specific will die every time.

Agreed.  Your actions should dictate who dies or doesn't die, either by direct choice or inadvertantly.  But SOMEONE should bite it.  I think it's necessary for these kinds of stories.

And I am fine with that as long as I can save that person in a different playthrough and let someone else bite the dust just like Ash/Kaidan in ME 1.

Then we are not at odds.  I am at odds with the people who want there to be a possibility for Shepard and co. to go through the galactic war completely unscathed.  That's ridiculous, even if you are the most completionist, prepared and awesome fighter there is.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 14 octobre 2011 - 01:33 .

[KotorEffect3]

Biotic Sage wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Squadmates will most likely be killable as they were in the first two games. However I don't want a speficific person to die no matter what every time. A virmire type situation is fine with me if you are forced to choose between squadmates but I don't want a situation where the same person dies in every playthrough because it is scripted that specific will die every time.

Agreed.  Your actions should dictate who dies or doesn't die, either by direct choice or inadvertantly.  But SOMEONE should bite it.  I think it's necessary for these kinds of stories.

And I am fine with that as long as I can save that person in a different playthrough and let someone else bite the dust just like Ash/Kaidan in ME 1.

Then we are not at odds.  I am at odds with the people who want there to be a possibility for Shepard and co. to go through the galactic war completely unscathed.  That's ridiculous, even if you are the most completionist, prepared and awesome fighter there is.

When I said someone else I meant a different squadmate.  I didn't mean some random NPC.

[Medhia Nox]

@Saphra_Deden: Well, in the past - if you haven't liked an answer you've simply stated "Wrong, you're stupid" - but I'll give it anyway.

Though the Normandy still functions in theory - because, after all, Bioware couldn't just end the game there - we are shown a Normandy without a full working crew.

My engineers - and my doctor - even my cook - are all important aspects of making the Normandy function.

If I rush onward for glory - only to watch my crew take damage, but have no medic - to have problems with the Mass Effect drive, but nobody to fix it - etc. then what good would it be to have a scuttled Normandy floating in space with no way for it to get where it needs to go?

Even something so stupid as food... that's the supply lines in space (not to mention he's the plumber, and a slew of other things). On a spaceship I would imagine these things are absolutely critical.

I would say it is a short sighted strategist that does not take "menials" into account to win his war. Wars are not won with soldiers alone.

Anyway - it is "a reason" - you can feel free to tell me how stupid a reason it is.

=========

@Marshalleck: But you don't want "room for both" - you want only the "grim dark" yes? You don't want allow those namby pamby paragons to enjoy the game - you want the game to not even have an ending for them. Am I correct in this? 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 14 octobre 2011 - 01:39 .

[KotorEffect3]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Let me ask Biotic Sage, Saphra Deden, and Marshalleck - and your thought about Shepard letting himself die? I suppose you're against it? Is that not a double standard?

Would you be for it if you could - somehow - continue the game with just the rest of the crew (not viable with the way this game is designed).

I know this wasn't asked of me but I think it would be interesting that the option to sacrifice Shepard would come up if Shepard didn't adequately prepare for the end game and since conditions are not as optimal as they could have been because the player didn't take time to prepare then the player shouold get the option to sacrifice Shepard or something very bad happens.

[Biotic Sage]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Squadmates will most likely be killable as they were in the first two games. However I don't want a speficific person to die no matter what every time. A virmire type situation is fine with me if you are forced to choose between squadmates but I don't want a situation where the same person dies in every playthrough because it is scripted that specific will die every time.

Agreed.  Your actions should dictate who dies or doesn't die, either by direct choice or inadvertantly.  But SOMEONE should bite it.  I think it's necessary for these kinds of stories.

And I am fine with that as long as I can save that person in a different playthrough and let someone else bite the dust just like Ash/Kaidan in ME 1.

Then we are not at odds.  I am at odds with the people who want there to be a possibility for Shepard and co. to go through the galactic war completely unscathed.  That's ridiculous, even if you are the most completionist, prepared and awesome fighter there is.

When I said someone else I meant a different squadmate.  I didn't mean some random NPC.

Yeah I know.  We are in agreement.

[marshalleck]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Marshalleck: But you don't want "room for both" - you want only the "grim dark" yes? You don't want allow those namby pamby paragons to enjoy the game - you want the game to not even have an ending for them. Am I correct in this? 

Where did I say any such thing? I'm under no fool belief that Bioware won't cater to the self-martyrdom of their paladin contingent. Entertaining such a notion is a waste of time.

Modifié par marshalleck, 14 octobre 2011 - 01:40 .

[Biotic Sage]

marshalleck wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Marshalleck: But you don't want "room for both" - you want only the "grim dark" yes? You don't want allow those namby pamby paragons to enjoy the game - you want the game to not even have an ending for them. Am I correct in this? 

Where did I say any such thing? I'm under no fool belief that Bioware won't cater to the self-martyrdom of their paladin contingent.

There are degrees of grim/dark.  ME3 is a grim/dark story by nature, so there should always be a degree of grim/dark regardless of decisions you make.  Making good decisions and preparing adequately, however, should allow you to soften the blow of the grim/darkness., but not erase it completely.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 14 octobre 2011 - 01:42 .

[Medhia Nox]

@mashalleck - I'm not one to talk, but can we put away the snide condescension for a sec?

All I was wondering is if they allowed the namby pamby Paragons to get their ending - but you got one that could be deemed equally as awesome - would you be fine with that?

==============

EDIT: @Biotic Sage: What if it doesn't go so far as death. Death is sometimes too 'easy'.

What if Tali could be crippled? Garrus blind? Grunt loses an arm?

Does it always have to be "death"?

I have a really screwed up view of death - lost a friend when we were kids, and I've never looked at it "right" (meaning, like other folks). It's really not that big of a deal to me.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 14 octobre 2011 - 01:46 .