4309 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

The namby-pamby paragon ending would undermine their rhetoric about "hard decisions" but then that's nothing new for either Mass Effect or just Bioware games in general. They almost always provide an easy out which I think does a great disservice to the aspects of decision-making they try so hard to implement.

I mean, I think if you really want a player to explore what it means to be virtuous, then it should be done in such a way that being virtuous may come with a heavy cost. Because isn't that what virtue is supposed to be about? Remaining true to ones' values even through adversity? 

Not this "miraculous third option" which always seems to present itself at the last moment and allow best possible outcome for all parties involved. Connor and the Circle Mages in DAO is one of the most explicit examples.

Modifié par marshalleck, 14 octobre 2011 - 01:50 .

[Biotic Sage]

marshalleck wrote...

The namby-pamby paragon ending would undermine their rhetoric about "hard decisions" but then that's nothing new for either Mass Effect or just Bioware games in general. They almost always provide an easy out which I think does a great disservice to the aspects of decision-making they try so hard to implement.

But maybe, just maybe, this time Bioware will have such respect for the weight a true galactic war would carry in their most beloved franchise, they will actually take some risks and opt for REAL hard decisions instead of pandering to Talimancers.

This is my great hope.  Foolish though it may be.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 14 octobre 2011 - 01:48 .

[Captain_Obvious]

Sorry, did someone call for a namby pamby paragon? Reporting for duty, and still wanting my no squad mate dies for the sake of someone else's idea of drama ending.

[Medhia Nox]

@Marshalleck: So the answer is: "I won't answer your question."

*shrugs* Okay, no big - I was just curious.

[Biotic Sage]

Captain_Obvious wrote...

Sorry, did someone call for a namby pamby paragon? Reporting for duty, and still wanting my no squad mate dies for the sake of someone else's idea of drama ending.

Why do you want Mass Effect to be romantic comedy? It is an epic war story.  You want to make it a completely different genre, and you talk about other people imposing their ideas...

[marshalleck]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Marshalleck: So the answer is: "I won't answer your question."

*shrugs* Okay, no big - I was just curious.

I'm not evading your question. In case I was unclear--the answer is a resounding "no" if it means sacrificing the quality of the narrative, which as they have said on many occasions, is about "hard decisions" for the entire trilogy in general, and "all out galactic war" for ME3 specifically. If all parties come out unscathed and unblemished, I'd say they just ruined what they set out to accomplish.

However, is that what I am hoping for? Also no, because I know such a hope is in vain. Follow me?

Modifié par marshalleck, 14 octobre 2011 - 01:57 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Biotic Sage: You might have missed it - or didn't care to answer, but I was curious about your thoughts.

I wrote at the bottom of page 62 about other options to grim/dark - why just "death". I'd be curious as to your thoughts.

[Il Divo]

marshalleck wrote...

The namby-pamby paragon ending would undermine their rhetoric about "hard decisions" but then that's nothing new for either Mass Effect or just Bioware games in general. They almost always provide an easy out which I think does a great disservice to the aspects of decision-making they try so hard to implement.

I mean, I think if you really want a player to explore what it means to be virtuous, then it should be done in such a way that being virtuous may come with a heavy cost. Because isn't that what virtue is supposed to be about? Remaining true to ones' values even through adversity? 

Not this "miraculous third option" which always seems to present itself at the last moment and allow best possible outcome for all parties involved. Connor and the Circle Mages in DAO is one of the most explicit examples.

And here we run into the key flaw of Bioware games, much as I may love them. Seriously, this post needs to be stickied.

[SandTrout]

I would be OK with being able to save your squad if it costs other things, like a group of civilians gets slaughtered by Cannibals or something.

[Dave of Canada]

Throwing out this hypothetical scenario for fun and I'm bored.

*loud talking in the war room*

Turian Admiral: I fear we shouldn't tell him, he's been rather impul-

*Shepard walks in*

Hackett: *nod* Commander.

*Every Admiral from every fleet briefly goes silent*

Salarian Admiral: We musn't risk a rescue operation, seventeen lives mean nothing while countless more are dying.
Hackett: You wouldn't say that if those were your men.
Salarian Admiral: I would, I'm thinking with cold hard facts.
Shepard: What's going on?
Salarian Admiral: Nothing that involves you, I'm afraid.
Kal'Reegar: He's helped us all, least we should do is respect enough to tell him.
Hackett: Commander, I'm afraid it isn't pretty.
Shepard: Tell me.
Hackett: While you went out playing hero, we spotted a Reaper orbiting Terra Nova. In fear of an imminent attack, we tried to contact the colony and found it's communications were cut off.
Turian Admiral: Spectre Williams suggested we'd send out a vessel with a lone operative to warn the colonies, though the chance of one vessel possibly surviving the voyage wasn't high.
Salarian Admiral: It's probability was 5.6-
Kal'reegar: He doesn't need to know that.
Hackett: We sent down a team, Williams was involved. A Spectre on hand boosted their morale.
Salarian Admiral: It was a trap.
Shepard: What?!

*the Admirals plays a recording of Ashley mirroring her distress call from Eden Prime, husks / brutes / cannibals are attacking the team*

Han'Gerrel: We cannot risk rescue, the Reapers don't know our position. Any movement can compromise our location and we don't have time to move the entire fleet quickly enough.
Shepard: Send in the Normandy.
Turian Admiral: Wouldn't do anything, they'd still track you. We have to remain in position.
Shepard: We can't just leave them down there!
Han'Gerrel: We have to.
Kal'reegar: Dammit Admiral, have some respect for the Commander.
Hackett: Commander, we'll do everything we can but I'm afraid we can't do anything right now.
Shepard: Do more, dammit!
Turian Admiral: I'm afraid it would come to this. Men.

*Turian soldiers come in with assault rifles drawn*

Hackett: Surely this is a little bit too much, Admiral?
Turian Admiral: He has to be restrained, take him to his quarters. Guard the door, make sure he doesn't do anything irrational.
Hackett: I refuse to let you do this to my soldier.
Turian Admiral: He's a war criminal who's just lucky he's useful, not any "soldier".

*Shepard is carried away, forcibly if you take the Renegade interrupt*
*cutscene of Shepard sitting in his temp quarters onboard the "shared"  vessel*

Joker: Commander, are you okay?
Shepard: Do I sound like I'm okay?
Joker: I've got a plan to rescue Williams.
Shepard: What is it, Joker?
Joker: EDI made this channel secure, none of the Admirals or their man can hear any of this.
EDI: Down the hall across your chamber, there's an airlock.
Shepard: Good that does me, the entire ship is guarded by Alliance and Turian personel.
Joker: Seriously, Commander? That hasn't stopped you before.
Shepard: Hurry up and get the Normandy in place, Joker. I'll be right there.
Joker: Gotcha.

*Shepard opens his door and knocks out the Turian guards, he grabs a pistol and starts fighting through the hall as Turian and Alliance personel try to stop him. On the intercom, a voice is trying to contact the SSV Normandy and tells us to desist*

EDI: There should be a space suit nearby, locate it.

*Shepard dresses in a suit and goes into the airlock, a brief scene of the Admirals hearing the ruckus and realizing what's occuring happens and you see Shepard drift outside the spacecraft into the Normandy and the Normandy flying away. The Admirals immediately advise every ship that can to make a break for the relay*

*you drop down on the Hammerhead, you fight through Terra Nova's streets and see the entire colony is apparently huskified. You arrive to Ashley's locations to see her essentially repeating the "War Hero" story and defending civilians from the husks*

Ashley: You came for us?
Shepard: *smile, reaches his hand down* I never abandon my team.
Civilians: Thank heavens! / We're saved! / Yaaaay! / I'm going to post on the forums about this!
Ashley: *picks herself up* but... the fleet...
Shepard: They'll be fine.
Ashley: You placed them all at risk!

*Reaper moving in distance towards you*

Joker: Commander, we have to get out of here!

*You all leave back onboard the Normandy, you narrowly escape the Reapers and the civilians are thankful for their lives and the soldiers who were present are speechless. Ashley looks around worried as Joker tries to call the fleet*

Joker: There's no response.
EDI: I'm not picking up any life at the fleet's location.
Shepard: They've probably left, maybe we'll be able to follow the trail.

*The Normandy drifts where the ships were, wreckage is everywhere and bodies of dead soldiers are floating in space (think Dead Space's corpses)*

Ashley: Oh no...
Joker: We're getting a message, Commander.
Shepard: Play it.
Hackett: *furious* Commander, we need to talk.

END RESULT:

• Ashley is saved.
• Terra Nova survivors are saved.
• War Assets -5
• People aren't going to trust Shepard's judgement and might question his leadership, an Admiral or two could possibly die creating tensions between Shepard and that species.
• Ashley is absolutely furious with Shepard for deciding to save her causing a lot of drama in the friendship/relationship, though she eventually understands she/you can't change the past and you can "get over it".
• Bittersweet, you saved your love one at the cost of something else. No "happy ending" choice where you can have your cake and eat it too.
• No forced companion death.

[Biotic Sage]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Biotic Sage: You might have missed it - or didn't care to answer, but I was curious about your thoughts.

I wrote at the bottom of page 62 about other options to grim/dark - why just "death". I'd be curious as to your thoughts.

Narrative theory says there are no other options.  If you want a story to be grim/dark, you can't just say "there is a lot of death happening."   You have to show the audience, not tell them, and by "show" I mean actually impact the established diegesis, not just show a bunch of random people dying; they have to be characters you know, they have to be characters you have invested time with.  

[Captain_Obvious]

@ biotic sage, I'm still not understanding how making the ending I want and the ending you want are mutually exclusive. I don't care how your game ends. Why do you care how mine does? Why do you have to create a false dichotomy of death=correct ending? I want to play the hero. I want everyone to make it out. Why do you not want me to be able to do that? It doesn't affect you at all.

[Biotic Sage]

SandTrout wrote...

I would be OK with being able to save your squad if it costs other things, like a group of civilians gets slaughtered by Cannibals or something.

I would be ok with that too, since no person truly role playing would choose that ridiculous option haha. 

Civilians: "Shepard!  Help us!"
Shepard: "Nah, that's too dangerous.  Good luck with that."

Even renegade Shepards wouldn't do that.  It goes against the parameters of Shep's character.

[Biotic Sage]

Captain_Obvious wrote...

@ biotic sage, I'm still not understanding how making the ending I want and the ending you want are mutually exclusive. I don't care how your game ends. Why do you care how mine does? Why do you have to create a false dichotomy of death=correct ending? I want to play the hero. I want everyone to make it out. Why do you not want me to be able to do that? It doesn't affect you at all.

I have explained why many times.  I'm sorry if you are not hearing me. 

One more time: If there is a perfect ending, then of course I am going to achieve it; I am an experienced gamer who always plays games in a completionist fashion.  So the paradigms ARE mutually exclusive.  You are going to try your hardest, I am going to try my hardest.  We are both going to achieve all that we can and save everyone we can.  The difference is, I still want the galactic war to feel authentic even when I'm being a completionist.

There is inevitability and death that comes with good war stories.  Playing as a completionist should not suddenly make ME3 a bad war story.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 14 octobre 2011 - 02:05 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Biotic_Sage: Yes, I'm aware of "show don't tell" - did you go back and read what I wrote? ((Which is actually only modern narrative theory - and all masters of the craft are willing to break it if it adds to a story. Rules are for commoners - of which I am one - lest you think I'm being condescending))

Death isn't grim/dark to me - as I stated. It's just a function of existence - and yes, I've had close people die - as I stated.

I would find my proposed options much more emotionally engaging - in real life.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 14 octobre 2011 - 02:05 .

[Il Divo]

Captain_Obvious wrote...

@ biotic sage, I'm still not understanding how making the ending I want and the ending you want are mutually exclusive. I don't care how your game ends. Why do you care how mine does? Why do you have to create a false dichotomy of death=correct ending? I want to play the hero. I want everyone to make it out. Why do you not want me to be able to do that? It doesn't affect you at all.

Primarily because the notion of a perfect ending is mutually exclusive with the notion of hard choices. How can my choices be difficult, if I'm guaranteed that some outcome exists where everyone gets a happy ending?

Edit: As an example, it would be similar to Bioware placing a magical third solution which allowed you to save both Kaidan and Ashley. Sure, there is a scenario in which one dies, but it has less meaning since a scenario also existed where both lived. Unless that third choice has some other cost associated with it, you're not making difficult decisions, merely motivational ones.

Modifié par Il Divo, 14 octobre 2011 - 02:07 .

[marshalleck]

Captain_Obvious wrote...

@ biotic sage, I'm still not understanding how making the ending I want and the ending you want are mutually exclusive. I don't care how your game ends. Why do you care how mine does? Why do you have to create a false dichotomy of death=correct ending? I want to play the hero. I want everyone to make it out. Why do you not want me to be able to do that? It doesn't affect you at all.

The catch here is that Bioware keep playing at suggesting the game will be "dark" and involve "tough decisions."

If they disposed of that language, and simply stated the game will be a heroic war saga then there'd be no problem. 

[Nashiktal]

If they want to show us how grim things are, let them just do what they do every mass effect game. Introduce us to someone in the beginning, then kill them a little later on. Hell make it a group of people instead.

We get to keep out squaddies, you get your grimness. Yay.

In any case things can be plenty grim without killing squaddies. Garrus' family is on palaven (the turian homeworld that was abandoned due to reaper attack) If garrus' can't find out about his family, or hell even get to save them, would that not provide both the grimness, and character developments points we could all like?

There are better ways to make things "dark and gritty" than just killing people you care about. Thats cheap and quick "emotional" tricks, not anything that would make me think "oh man this game is deep."

[Biotic Sage]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Biotic_Sage: Yes, I'm aware of "show don't tell" - did you go back and read what I wrote? ((Which is actually only modern narrative theory - and all masters of the craft are willing to break it if it adds to a story. Rules are for commoners - of which I am one - lest you think I'm being condescending))

Death isn't grim/dark to me - as I stated. It's just a function of existence - and yes, I've had close people die - as I stated.

I would find my proposed options much more emotionally engaging - in real life.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to stick with cognitive research on the emotional impact of certain literary devices.  Good stories do follow a certain set of rules.  Period.

Of course you can adhere to a different belief, but I hope you understand why I adhere to mine.

[Medhia Nox]

But if you know there is a requisite "must die" moment - you all still feel emotionally charged by it?

I don't - I say: "Ahh, death of the week moment."

====

@Biotic Sage: Your prerogative of course. I'm sure you write wonderful technically appropriate material.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 14 octobre 2011 - 02:08 .

[Biotic Sage]

Nashiktal wrote...

If they want to show us how grim things are, let them just do what they do every mass effect game. Introduce us to someone in the beginning, then kill them a little later on. Hell make it a group of people instead.

We get to keep out squaddies, you get your grimness. Yay.

In any case things can be plenty grim without killing squaddies. Garrus' family is on palaven (the turian homeworld that was abandoned due to reaper attack) If garrus' can't find out about his family, or hell even get to save them, would that not provide both the grimness, and character developments points we could all like?

There are better ways to make things "dark and gritty" than just killing people you care about. Thats cheap and quick "emotional" tricks, not anything that would make me think "oh man this game is deep."

Haha that's the most contrived and cheap thing I've ever heard of, and you are talking about "cheap and quick" emotional tricks? lol.  Sorry, but that's not a compromise.  That doesn't give either of us what we want.

[Il Divo]

Nashiktal wrote...

There are better ways to make things "dark and gritty" than just killing people you care about. Thats cheap and quick "emotional" tricks, not anything that would make me think "oh man this game is deep."

I'd actually argue the opposite. Killing someone I know well means more than killing random mook #567. It's precisely because that character is so familiar that it puts me on my guard; it says that anyone I care about could die at any moment, depending on circumstances.

[Sajuro]

Dave of Canada wrote...

END RESULT:

• Ashley is saved.
• Terra Nova survivors are saved.
• War Assets -5
• People aren't going to trust Shepard's judgement and might question his leadership, an Admiral or two could possibly die creating tensions between Shepard and that species.
• Ashley is absolutely furious with Shepard for deciding to save her causing a lot of drama in the friendship/relationship, though she eventually understands she/you can't change the past and you can "get over it".
• Bittersweet, you saved your love one at the cost of something else. No "happy ending" choice where you can have your cake and eat it too.
• No forced companion death.

I like it, though I would need the option to go with them willingly (since doing those little party horns would probably be out of the question)

[marshalleck]

Nashiktal wrote...

There are better ways to make things "dark and gritty" than just killing people you care about.

Like killing a bunch of redshirts we don't know and don't care about, as per your suggestion?

If I roll my eyes any harder they might fall out of my head.

[Biotic Sage]

Medhia Nox wrote...

But if you know there is a requisite "must die" moment - you all still feel emotionally charged by it?

I don't - I say: "Ahh, death of the week moment."

====

@Biotic Sage: Your prerogative of course. I'm sure you write wonderful technically appropriate material.

Every time I watch Saving Private Ryan, I still feel emotionally charged by the deaths.  Every time I watch the Lord of the Rings, I still feel emotionally charged by Boromir's death.  I don't engage with stories for plot first and foremost, I engage with them for quality.