4309 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

@Biotic Sage: Right - and I was asking what felt real to you? I'm actually not being confrontational (as in, trying to win some argument) - just trying to hold a conversation.

You said you were an English major - I'm intrigued about your thoughts.

[Captain_Obvious]

@ Biotic Sage, sorry for all of the @ but I can't quote on my iPad.

Anyway, you wrote that i want it to be something it's not, and that's where you are incorrect. It was possible to get the no squadmates die ending in ME2. You want to change that. You want the genre to change. Someone else mentioned that Bioware always provides an out. You want that to change. by all accounts, you should be seeking another game, not me. I want that aspect of the status quo to be maintained. You do not.

[Computer_God91]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Captain_Obvious wrote...

@ biotic sage, I'm still not understanding how making the ending I want and the ending you want are mutually exclusive. I don't care how your game ends. Why do you care how mine does? Why do you have to create a false dichotomy of death=correct ending? I want to play the hero. I want everyone to make it out. Why do you not want me to be able to do that? It doesn't affect you at all.

You are able to make a choice.
> Sacrifice X, Y survives.
> Sacrifice Y, X survives.
> X and Y survive.

X and Y can be anything, from planet to Shepard's fish. A player who wants a happy ending is -never- going to pick the first two options, they'll always pick the X and Y survives option. Where's the hard choice there? Why advocate hard choices?

Those who want hard choices can pretend they are blind and don't see "X and Y survive." as an option, however it's sheer existances removes from the drama of having the character die. Do you feel like you truly failed Tali when she gets shot in the face on your third playthrough because you decided to make Grunt your team leader for forced drama or do you feel bored because you had to force yourself to do it?

Now let's temper the choice a bit:
> Sacrifice X, Y survives.
> Sacrifice Y, X survives.
> X and Y survive [IF Z WAS DONE BEFORE]

There, you've made the happier ending slightly harder to achieve on the first playthrough. The only difference is, most completionists will easily fill the criteria for Z (regardless of wanting drama or not) or it will become pretty standard quite quickly.

Dragon Age: Origins had fangirls crying their eyes out after Alistair sacrificed himself ontop of Fort Drakon or when Alistair dumped them post-Landsmeet because they weren't getting married and he was going to be king, it certainly created a memorable playthrough because it scarred most people (NOT ALL) into forever doing Female Cousland and Dark Ritual to make sure there's a "happy ending".

A tough choice isn't when you can point at a certain path and say "Oh hey, I did it". A tough choice is when you're uncomfortable with your decision or you agree with it completely but many others do not. When there's forum arguments about choices which usually doesn't dissolve into "just do the third option", you know you've got a winner.

You discribe exactly why having an ultimate happy ending exist is just bad for people like us that want good writing and drama. I play games like a completionist but I also enjoy hard choices. This creates a problem because if there is an option for me to save both X and Y I won't see the point of letting either of those happen. I strive for the happy ending but I don't want it. So if the happy ending presents itself I'll run right at it. That's why giving the option for one is a problem for people like me who play their hardest because if you have to work for the happy ending I'll still get it and if I want it to have some death to make the story realistic and meaningful I have ot purposely make bad choices and be bored watching Tali take a bullet to the head or Samara being carried off by seekers. that's why these options can't exist because then the alternatives are just boring and have no impact. Example is Virmire. I still regret my choice on Virmire I wish I could've saved both but I couldn't and that's why it was a good choice because if I could then leaving either to die wouldn't leave this effect on me.

That's what was great about Dragon Age. There wasn't an ultimate happy ending like you discribed above. Which is why I always do ultimate sacrifice. It's the "best" ending in my opinion.

I've probably failed once again to get my point out properly but we'll see.

[SandTrout]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Pragmatic to the end, SandTrout.  It just doesn't seem like Garrus would make the decision to walk away, and I know my Shepard wouldn't and most other people's Shepards wouldn't either, regardless of pragmatism.

To be honest, I probably would save the refugees as well. I'm just saying that it there is a valid line of thought resulting in sacrificing the civilians in favor of a squad-mate.

[Saaziel]

Renegade ending ought to be the no one dies ending.

Do it Bioware , it would be hilarious.

[Biotic Sage]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Biotic Sage: Right - and I was asking what felt real to you? I'm actually not being confrontational (as in, trying to win some argument) - just trying to hold a conversation.

You said you were an English major - I'm intrigued about your thoughts.

Oh, I wasn't trying to be confrontational either.  And I'm sorry if it came out that way.  I am interested in discussion, and sometimes I feel like the best way to be clear in expressing my thoughts is to be direct/blunt and concise.  

What feels real to me is the fact that the codex goes into detail to explain the politics of the galaxy, which very much resemble real-world politics, and also explain how tech works.  There is disease, poverty, and crime in the Mass Effect universe; all of these seedy, realistic elements are quite prevalent all the time.

Of course sci-fi isn't completely realistic, that's where the fiction part comes in, but it is much more realistic than a myth/fantasy or something like Star Wars.

[Biotic Sage]

SandTrout wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

Pragmatic to the end, SandTrout.  It just doesn't seem like Garrus would make the decision to walk away, and I know my Shepard wouldn't and most other people's Shepards wouldn't either, regardless of pragmatism.

To be honest, I probably would save the refugees as well. I'm just saying that it there is a valid line of thought resulting in sacrificing the civilians in favor of a squad-mate.

And I agree with you on that.  Sorry if I didn't make that clear.  You made a good point.

[marshalleck]

Nashiktal wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

There are better ways to make things "dark and gritty" than just killing people you care about.

Like killing a bunch of redshirts we don't know and don't care about, as per your suggestion?

If I roll my eyes any harder they might fall out of my head.

Redshirts? Reread my friend. I am only suggesting the same cheap death trick you are pushing. Jenkins and that tech dude from me2 were obvious redshirts yes, but have you played Dragon age awakening expansion? They had a nice character who they let you get plenty familiar with. You fought side by side, had conversations, saved the day together and then as things settled down and you were ready to explore more of her character... She dies a rather anticlimatic death from the taint, reminding us how dangerous it is being a warden.

Of course you probably can't read this right now, since you seem to be rolling your eyes at the moment. But hey we can't all have perfect vision.

Maihri, or however you spell it. Don't think you're enlightening me to anything. I play Bioware games too.

[Biotic Sage]

Captain_Obvious wrote...

@ Biotic Sage, sorry for all of the @ but I can't quote on my iPad.

Anyway, you wrote that i want it to be something it's not, and that's where you are incorrect. It was possible to get the no squadmates die ending in ME2. You want to change that. You want the genre to change. Someone else mentioned that Bioware always provides an out. You want that to change. by all accounts, you should be seeking another game, not me. I want that aspect of the status quo to be maintained. You do not.

Well one of us is misjudging Bioware's vision for Mass Effect, you think it's me and I think it's you.  I am ok with ME2's "perfect" ending because it is the middle chapter.  The Reapers haven't actually come yet.  When ME3 comes out, we will just have to see which one of us is correctly interpretting Bioware's vision.

[Medhia Nox]

@Saaziel: Actually - that's how I see it working.

To me - Renegade Shepard is so willing to kill everyone and their mother - that his crew should be far safer than the Paragon Shepard's crew.

[jeweledleah]

slightly of topic, since DA was brought up - my personal preferred ending is Alistair as Warden. sure you still need to do the dark ritual but you stay together with no issues afterwards. no need to be a princess, just a committed couple is good. so yes, there were different options for happy ending in DAO. now imagine if you had no dark ritual as an option. someone always has to die to archdemon. THIS is what you all are asking for.

WE? we are asking for dark ritual.

[jeweledleah]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Yeah, a get out of jail free card. 'cause you're weak.

a woudln't call a baby old god growing up somewhere with a woman who is very moraly grayto be a get out of jail free card. neither is letting Balak go.

[Medhia Nox]

I absolutely LOVED having Alistair throw a hissy fit and forcing him into alcoholism.

And I would have melted that scab of a witch into slag if the game gave me options. You want me to what you sick twisted wench? How's about I impregnate you with a fireball instead?

I have such little toleration for weak, craven individuals.

[Nashiktal]

Really? I thought if you were a male character you could get a happy ending. Saved the day, got alistair as king with lenora (or whatever her name is) did the dark ritual (which wasn't hard for me, preserving the soul of the old god without corruption was amazing for me) and then travelled the world with leliana.

Wasn't all that dark to me.

[Nashiktal]

I miss the original concept of paragon and renegade. As it is now, its just light side darkside.

[Renegade133]

This why i thought the casualty of virmire was important in the first game it showed that sacrifices have to be sometimes made to safe guard the mission Mass effect 2 didn't have that same kind of emotion because every battle wasn't hopeless

but for me i like it when games use the tool of a main character getting killed for me it it brings out that little voice inside that say's No never again which makes crazy

[Captain_Obvious]

@ Biotic Sage, sorry but that smacks of moving the goalposts. Required death in ME1 good, no required death in ME2 good, required death in ME3 good. That's shifting your argument from good narrative to acceptable narrative, back to good narrative. Anyway, I'm sure I'll be happy, Bioware hasn't disappointed me yet.

[Computer_God91]

jeweledleah wrote...

slightly of topic, since DA was brought up - my personal preferred ending is Alistair as Warden. sure you still need to do the dark ritual but you stay together with no issues afterwards. no need to be a princess, just a committed couple is good. so yes, there were different options for happy ending in DAO. now imagine if you had no dark ritual as an option. someone always has to die to archdemon. THIS is what you all are asking for.

WE? we are asking for dark ritual.

The dark ritual. Don't even get me started. That's not even a choice! You're allowing the archdemon to live into some satan child you know nothing about. You've completely defeated the purpose of all that work you did all game just to cower in fear at your own death or the death of another. I don't understand how anyone with a brain can let the Archdemon survive just to live or save someone else.

That's like in ME3 you can either Sacrifice yourself, or your LI/favorite charactor/best friend to stop the Reapers once and for all. OR you can let the Reapers return to dark space so you can all live for a bit longer before f*cking up millions of other peoples lives. How selfish is that?

[nitefyre410]

Biotic Sage wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

and thus it continues... forever

As an English major I cannot walk away haha.  I must champion what I believe to be good storytelling.  It is a compulsion.

 


I have problem when my favorate characeters killed when some moronic author/writer  comes up with the notion in his head that because he is stupid  to pull together plot for drama that are already there. Thus in the process also handing my favorate characters   the Idoit  Ball , Forgot my Powers and Stupid Sacrifce. 

Ironically  you be suprised that I may very well be more on your side than anything else if of course the main premise of the Mass Effect series was not built around Shepard being a choose you own adventure character.  

Modifié par nitefyre410, 14 octobre 2011 - 02:50 .

[Biotic Sage]

Captain_Obvious wrote...

@ Biotic Sage, sorry but that smacks of moving the goalposts. Required death in ME1 good, no required death in ME2 good, required death in ME3 good. That's shifting your argument from good narrative to acceptable narrative, back to good narrative. Anyway, I'm sure I'll be happy, Bioware hasn't disappointed me yet.

Nah, I look at the trilogy as all one narrative.  So no goalpost movement, just different expectations for different Acts of the story.  If you turn out to be right I will gladly admit I am wrong in judging what Mass Effect's identity is, and you can gladly say "I told you so."

[jeweledleah]

Computer_God91 wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

slightly of topic, since DA was brought up - my personal preferred ending is Alistair as Warden. sure you still need to do the dark ritual but you stay together with no issues afterwards. no need to be a princess, just a committed couple is good. so yes, there were different options for happy ending in DAO. now imagine if you had no dark ritual as an option. someone always has to die to archdemon. THIS is what you all are asking for.

WE? we are asking for dark ritual.

The dark ritual. Don't even get me started. That's not even a choice! You're allowing the archdemon to live into some satan child you know nothing about. You've completely defeated the purpose of all that work you did all game just to cower in fear at your own death or the death of another. I don't understand how anyone with a brain can let the Archdemon survive just to live or save someone else.

That's like in ME3 you can either Sacrifice yourself, or your LI/favorite charactor/best friend to stop the Reapers once and for all. OR you can let the Reapers return to dark space so you can all live for a bit longer before f*cking up millions of other peoples lives. How selfish is that?

the Matrix.  Neo.  Trinity.  (of course they had to go ahead and ruin it and make her randomly die anyway, but that's not the point)

its an option.  its a choice.  you don't have to take it if you think its the wrong one.  its as simple as that.

[Golden Owl]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Thane is likeliest to die, I mean, he's going to die soon anyway; if you have to choose someone to die, he's the obvious choice. >_>

No, that would come down to who has the most to offer to the war effort/who is the most useful to Shep on his team, etc....As my Shep finds Thane an extremely useful and effective squaddie (thus adding a higher percentage to the teams ability to survive), Thane would take precedence over one lesser able.

[Captain_Obvious]

There's no right or wrong here. Opinions are like that.

Off topic: I thought you could leave Alistair behind at the city gate to keep him from doing the sacrifice thing?