4309 réponses à ce sujet

[AdmiralCheez]

chickenchasa wrote...

...and the last ten or so Animorph books were Ghost Written and filled with Angst.

So THAT'S why they sucked!

Suddenly, everything is clear.

...wait? Weren't we talking about something involving aliens?

This thread never stays on topic.  Ever.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

I want to play a completionist, make smart, rational choices...and still not not be able to save everyone.

I understand the need for loss and drama, but I still find this standpoint to be a bit silly.  "I want to do everything as well as I possibly can and not be rewarded for it."  Eh... what?

Saving the galaxy, Earth, and SOME squad memebrs is not a reward?

According to you, it's only possible if I specifcly try to doctor it (by RP-in a different sheppard that I want). This defeats the whole purpose and makes hte entire experience feel artificial.

It's going to feel a little artifical regardless.  It's a game.  Besides, it's impossible to account for everyone's perception of what they want Shep to be.  A few angles will be missed.

Well, it will feel a lot more artificial. Enough to run the atmosphere.

I want logic and reason to rule the reaper invasion.

You want compromise..how about this? - you can save your entire team - But you loose Earth, Hackket, Anderson and almost every other interesting NPC that's not a party member in the process.

No.  That's dumb.  Overkill, even worse writing, needless punishment for liking the characters, which is what Bioware wants you to do.  Writer suicide.

You don't even know how and why they die.
So your statement is utter bollocks. You may call it a bad idea, but bad writing? Your statement makes no sense. Does not compute.

No?

No.  Quit being a dick about your opinion.

Only if you stop being a b*** about yours.

[jeweledleah]

@ Cheez - thank you. @ Biotic Sage - I'm not being illogical, you guys are just being stubborn and somewhat narrow in your thinking. even with some of the suggestions where decisions from prior games affecting what happens in ME3 it will be eventually possible to figure out an ultimate shiniest most perfect ultimate playthrough where everything goes the best possible way. eventually.

but this part apparently bothers you all, the fact that its possible at all,no matter how hard it may be to achieve. you want to impose a sense of grim dark on everyone by requesting (or demanding) writing where its not possible under no circumstance, no matter what you do - like virmire. I don't know about you all - but to me that pretty much defeats the purpose of trying at all. it basically removes any emotional impact it may have had. it makes me feel like I have wasted my time.

YMMV

but I would rather they gave players an option for the ultimate, every squadmate survives and they live happily ever after ending. in Star wars? there were victims. in the very first movie - princess Leia watches her entire planet get blown up. Luke loses the only family he had left. there's loss, there's tragedy. but in the end - the gang, the principal characters? they are intact. Han, Leia, Luke, Chewy, Lando, c3po, r2dr - they were all there to get their medals to epic music. the fact that they all survived in the end didn't lessen the impact of the story. and it didn't somehow negate the losses that they all suffered.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 14 octobre 2011 - 09:43 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

MEh..SW is not good writing. It is ENTERTAINING ESCAPISM.

It's not a dep story. It's not a heavy story. Death of Alderaan and Luke's parents? did anyone even give a damn about those?


And yes, you are being illogical.
ME3 is armageddon scenario. There should be no-win scenarios. If there aren't any than it makes me feel like I wasted my time.

[Biotic Sage]

jeweledleah wrote...

@ Cheez - thank you. @ Biotic Sage - I'm not being illogical, you guys are just being stubborn and somewhat narrow in your thinking. even with some of the suggestions where decisions from prior games affecting what happens in ME3 it will be eventually possible to figure out an ultimate shiniest most perfect ultimate playthrough where everything goes the best possible way. eventually.

It is illogical.  Your logic is flawed.  Here is your argument:

A) Some people want an ending where someone dies even when you make all of the optimal decisions
Some people want an ending where no one dies when you make all of the optimal decisions
C) These two things can both be present in the game

Flawed.  Logic.  Einstein said, "Doing the same thing and expecting different results is insanity."

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 14 octobre 2011 - 09:51 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Saving the galaxy, Earth, and SOME squad memebrs is not a reward?

It is, but working your ass off and wanting to do poorly is... weird.

Well, it will feel a lot more artificial. Enough to run the atmosphere.

Not if presented well.  Unbelievable stuff can happen all over the place and you might not know the difference if the story is told well enough.

I want logic and reason to rule the reaper invasion.

The Reapers are all about logic and reason.  You'll get along fine.  Meanwhile, don't mind me while I Care Bear it up and win through MY EMOTIONS.

You don't even know how and why they die.
So your statement is utter bollocks. You may call it a bad idea, but bad writing? Your statement makes no sense. Does not compute.

In a game about player choice, INTENTIONALLY forcing players to suffer for doing what you wanted them to do is a bad design decision.  Making the game basically unwinnable if somebody likes your characters will kill your whole story, because those that choose the plot will stop caring about the characters, and then are less likely to play again, while those that choose the characters will think the plot is an ass, and will also be less likely to play again.  If you plan on selling DLC later, you can't shoot replayability in the foot.  People will not replay the game if their efforts are not rewarded.

Only if you stop being a b*** about yours.

I know you are but what am I? *waggles eyebrows tauntingly*

[jeweledleah]

I'm sorry - Mass Effect is deep and heavy story now? since when? Mass Effect 1 and 2 are entertaining escapism with elements of chose your own adventure. you are looking for something that these games are not.

Sage - you are missing a small part of this equation. you will not know of the existence of every single ultimate choice until much much later. not to mention my ultimate choice may not be your ultimate choice

to bring it back to DAO. some people think that the best outcome is Warden sacrifice. for them its the ultimate choice. other people think that going through dark ritual and living with their LI is the best outcome. for them its the ultimate choice. NEITHER conclusion is mutually exclusive.

also - what Cheez said.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 14 octobre 2011 - 09:56 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

MEh..SW is not good writing. It is ENTERTAINING ESCAPISM.

Don't tell me you like the prequels better.  I might have to give you a paddlin'.

Anyway, I don't know if you realized this, but ALL storytelling is escapism.  We don't watch movies or read books to be constantly reminded of the chair we are sitting in or that thing that we have to do by Monday.  All of it is entertainment; we do it to kill time and feel good.  I said this before, but immersion is really just a measure of how well a certain outlet is providing that escapist entertainment.

All fiction, all drama, all comedy is a temporary escape from our daily lives.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

MEh..SW is not good writing. It is ENTERTAINING ESCAPISM.

SW is a well told fairy tale set in space.

[DreamerOfMakeBelieve]

Honestly, I want it to be dark and emotional, with gut-wrenching decisions and plot twists that'll make your head spin. There should be decisions in the last hour of the game that can change the game completely. Seeing everybody I know and love die will be painful but isn't that what makes us feel connected to the game?

I know that I'll be devastated if, or when, Garrus dies. I swear that'll leave me heart broken if one decision I made will kill my all time favourite character, but this will make me determined to go back and figure out what I did wrong so that I can hopefully change the outcome.

Let's keep in mind that there are more than 100 different endings

Modifié par DreamerOfMakeBelieve, 14 octobre 2011 - 04:02 .

[Pepper4]

I want an "everyone survive" scenario to exist, but I want it to be VERY difficult to achieve (unlike the suicide mission). I want my first playthrough to be really tough and full of death.

[Biotic Sage]

AwesomeName wrote...

Star Wars was great but also a kids film; a lot of folk are hoping ME will be less juvenile and more moving than that.

In all likelihood I don't think both sides can get want they want from this. As I've said before both camps want to play the best playthrough possible but still get their outcome:

Camp A wants to: play a completionist run, make intelligent, informed decisions, all with the desire of saving everyone, and have no squaddies die.

Camp B wants to: play a completionist run, make intelligent, informed decisions, all with the desire of saving everyone, and have some squaddies die despite that.

You didn't get that in the SM (which, incidentally, I was cool with, since the collectors are small-time compared to the Reapers). In the SM, you had to either not be a completionist (a casual player) or make poor decisions in order for anyone to die - and, personally, that feels awfully forced. Why would my Shepard, who wants to try to save everyone do all that, so that I can get that kind of drama? I would have to assume my Shepard was quite foolish for those playthroughs, and I don't like that. Just as a lot of you would hate having an ending where the only way to save your whole squad is to lose a population in the process.

Right.  It's simple logic.  The two are mutually exclusive.  Premise A and Premise B do not lead to the same conclusion.  JeweledLeah, it doesn't matter if you know about the ending or not.  That's irrelevant to the mutual exclusivity.

AwesomeName, you and I are on the same page.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 14 octobre 2011 - 10:20 .

[jeweledleah]

was Bring down the sky choice - cheesy? was Legion's loyalty mission choice cheesy? Bioware is capable of creating situations where either choice has its issues. I just fail to understand why squadmates having a chance to survive as being one side of a choice like that - is a problem. oh right, I keep on forgetting - there's no such thing as both choices having merit >_> even with Geth decision there's the whole "my choice is the only right choice" thing going on.

edited, beats head ondesk - once again. Sage - my ultimate choice is not necessarily YOUR ultimate choice. and even after you learn everything there is to learn about whcih decisions result in which outcome and for whatever reason decide that you are forced to replaying your shepard into achieveing an ultimate playtrhough - YOUR ultimate playtrhough is not necessarily the same as MY ultimate playtrhough and it is possible to create variety of those where one allows you to save every squadmate.  it is NOT mutualy exclusive.  its a matter of individual priorities.

here - an example.  final battle.  some of the quadmates are on different ships.  we're finding the last straglers of a reaper variety... one of them criticaly damages the ship some of my squadmates are on and tries to flee.   escape pods aren't working for whatever reason lets say that the damaging hit landed on the side where they were located and destroyed them. do I chase and finish off the reaper? or do I stop and rescue the people still alove on the ship, including my squadmates?

if I don't chase the reaper right now - that means it will still be out there, somewhere, and Shepard would have to go back and hunt for it, Shepard is risking that reaper finding a way to rebuild itself, build more and start the sycle all over again. but if I kill it right this moment?  people Shepard cares about die. not in a fiture, not maybe.  right there and then.  to you most likely the ultimate decision wqould be to finish off the reapers once and for all.  but for some of my Shepards?  they will take that risk to save theones they love.  all I want is that choice existing.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 14 octobre 2011 - 10:38 .

[Majin Paul]

 I'd certainly like to see endings where we can save as much people as possible. I'd understand if some deaths had to happen as long as the endings aren't a variety of everyone dying.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Saphra Deden wrote...

It's just cheesy.

That's quite the intricate pun, dear.

[Aggie Punbot]

Good heavens, this has hit 70 pages?

[Athayniel]

jeweledleah wrote...

was Bring down the sky choice - cheesy? was Legion's loyalty mission choice cheesy? Bioware is capable of creating situations where either choice has its issues. I just fail to understand why squadmates having a chance to survive as being one side of a choice like that - is a problem. oh right, I keep on forgetting - there's no such thing as both choices having merit >_> even with Geth decision there's the whole "my choice is the only right choice" thing going on.

edited, beats head ondesk - once again. Sage - my ultimate choice is not necessarily YOUR ultimate choice. and even after you learn everything there is to learn about whcih decisions result in which outcome and for whatever reason decide that you are forced to replaying your shepard into achieveing an ultimate playtrhough - YOUR ultimate playtrhough is not necessarily the same as MY ultimate playtrhough and it is possible to create variety of those where one allows you to save every squadmate.  it is NOT mutualy exclusive.  its a matter of individual priorities.

But their way of thinking is that every choice is 'right/wrong' as opposed to equally valid 'one way/other way' choices. If a choice leads to a squadmate living without horrendous repercussions then it's a "right" choice in their worldview. So they propose that you can only save a squadmate if Earth is destroyed or something equally ridiculous.

It's easy enough for us to say that something like the Arrival chioice is 'right/wrong' and something like the Balak choice is 'one way/other way', but they don't want to allow sparing the life of a squadmate to be anything but the wrong choice in a 'right/wrong' decision. I was going to use saving/losing the Council as an example of a 'one way/other way' choice, but they'd dispute that, especially with the paragon prejudice you see a lot on the BSN.

*edit* and what's up with you lot adding ten pages to this thread while I was asleep? Do you have any idea how much reading I've had to do this morning? For pity's sake....

Modifié par Athayniel, 14 octobre 2011 - 10:43 .

[Biotic Sage]

jeweledleah wrote...

edited, beats head ondesk - once again. Sage - my ultimate choice is not necessarily YOUR ultimate choice. and even after you learn everything there is to learn about whcih decisions result in which outcome and for whatever reason decide that you are forced to replaying your shepard into achieveing an ultimate playtrhough - YOUR ultimate playtrhough is not necessarily the same as MY ultimate playtrhough and it is possible to create variety of those where one allows you to save every squadmate.  it is NOT mutualy exclusive.  its a matter of individual priorities.

here - an example.  final battle.  some of the quadmates are on different ships.  we're finding the last straglers of a reaper variety... one of them criticaly damages the ship some of my squadmates are on and tries to flee.   escape pods aren't working for whatever reason lets say that the damaging hit landed on the side where they were located and destroyed them. do I chase and finish off the reaper? or do I stop and rescue the people still alove on the ship, including my squadmates?

if I don't chase the reaper right now - that means it will still be out there, somewhere, and Shepard would have to go back and hunt for it, Shepard is risking that reaper finding a way to rebuild itself, build more and start the sycle all over again. but if I kill it right this moment?  people Shepard cares about die. not in a fiture, not maybe.  right there and then.  to you most likely the ultimate decision wqould be to finish off the reapers once and for all.  but for some of my Shepards?  they will take that risk to save theones they love.  all I want is that choice existing.

Of note: When I say "optimal choices," or "ultimate" choices," I am not referring to the this-or-that decisions like keeping the Collector base or destroying it.  When I say "optimal choices," I'm referring to things like upgrading your ship completely, doing all of the loyalty missions, and acquiring the best gear. 

And for the last time: you don't need to metagame to achieve the perfect ending in ME2.  I did it the very first time, no guide.  You just have to be paying attention and be an experienced gamer.  Your argument concerning this is not only invalid, it's also really irrelevant to the main argument of whether or not there should be squadmate death in some shape or form regardless of the path you take.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 14 octobre 2011 - 11:53 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Renegades: it is possible to sustain quite heavy casualties during the suicide mission without a derpy Shepard. In my canon run we lost Kasumi, Samara, Thane and Jack, and Shepard did everything right. It was just bad luck.

[Biotic Sage]

Athayniel wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

was Bring down the sky choice - cheesy? was Legion's loyalty mission choice cheesy? Bioware is capable of creating situations where either choice has its issues. I just fail to understand why squadmates having a chance to survive as being one side of a choice like that - is a problem. oh right, I keep on forgetting - there's no such thing as both choices having merit >_> even with Geth decision there's the whole "my choice is the only right choice" thing going on.

edited, beats head ondesk - once again. Sage - my ultimate choice is not necessarily YOUR ultimate choice. and even after you learn everything there is to learn about whcih decisions result in which outcome and for whatever reason decide that you are forced to replaying your shepard into achieveing an ultimate playtrhough - YOUR ultimate playtrhough is not necessarily the same as MY ultimate playtrhough and it is possible to create variety of those where one allows you to save every squadmate.  it is NOT mutualy exclusive.  its a matter of individual priorities.

But their way of thinking is that every choice is 'right/wrong' as opposed to equally valid 'one way/other way' choices. If a choice leads to a squadmate living without horrendous repercussions then it's a "right" choice in their worldview. So they propose that you can only save a squadmate if Earth is destroyed or something equally ridiculous.

It's easy enough for us to say that something like the Arrival chioice is 'right/wrong' and something like the Balak choice is 'one way/other way', but they don't want to allow sparing the life of a squadmate to be anything but the wrong choice in a 'right/wrong' decision. I was going to use saving/losing the Council as an example of a 'one way/other way' choice, but they'd dispute that, especially with the paragon prejudice you see a lot on the BSN.

*edit* and what's up with you lot adding ten pages to this thread while I was asleep? Do you have any idea how much reading I've had to do this morning? For pity's sake....

Yeah...that's not my assertion at all.  I hope I'm not being lumped in with the "they" in your statement there.  In fact, I'm not sure I've seen anyone in this thread make that assertion (at least recently, I haven't read all the way back).  Honestly, some of us just believe that there should be some squadmate death for the sake of a good story, regardless of how uberskilled you are.  I trust Bioware to tell a good story; they are professional storytellers so I wouldn't get your hopes up for the peaches&cream everyone/lives scenario.  I would adjust your expectations to reality.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 14 octobre 2011 - 11:57 .

[marshalleck]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Renegades: it is possible to sustain quite heavy casualties during the suicide mission without a derpy Shepard. In my canon run we lost Kasumi, Samara, Thane and Jack, and Shepard did everything right. It was just bad luck.

Nonsense. You obviously did not do everything right, otherwise they would have survived. There are no random character deaths.