4309 réponses à ce sujet

[Soul Cool]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
So if the fine folks at Bioware have squeezed in one little possible endgame scenario in which the crew makes it out alive again and I don't have to basically murder my space-BFFs to win, even if there's like a 10% chance of getting that ending, I'd be eternally grateful.  Too late to really impact the story at this point, sure, but if the tweets are to be believed, I'm going to spend half the game sobbing anyway, so is wanting to watch the credits roll with a stupid, satisfied grin on my face too much to ask?

The reason I play Mass Effect can be summed up in one sentence.

"You know what, reality? #$*% you. We're winning."

[Biotic Sage]

marshalleck wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Renegades: it is possible to sustain quite heavy casualties during the suicide mission without a derpy Shepard. In my canon run we lost Kasumi, Samara, Thane and Jack, and Shepard did everything right. It was just bad luck.

Nonsense. You obviously did not do everything right, otherwise they would have survived. There are no random character deaths.

I'm gonna have to agree with Marshy here...that is complete nonsense.  If you upgraded your ship and got everyone's loyalty, you should have no deaths.  Maybe ONE death on the last part since Bioware kind of got sneaky with making it matter how many assault rifles/what type of armor you left at the "hold the line."  But that one death is very unlikely.  I avoided it by luck.

[marshalleck]

Soul Cool wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...
So if the fine folks at Bioware have squeezed in one little possible endgame scenario in which the crew makes it out alive again and I don't have to basically murder my space-BFFs to win, even if there's like a 10% chance of getting that ending, I'd be eternally grateful.  Too late to really impact the story at this point, sure, but if the tweets are to be believed, I'm going to spend half the game sobbing anyway, so is wanting to watch the credits roll with a stupid, satisfied grin on my face too much to ask?

The reason I play Mass Effect can be summed up in one sentence.

"You know what, reality? #$*% you. We're winning."

Oh, so you play for cheap escapism.

[Biotic Sage]

Soul Cool wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...
So if the fine folks at Bioware have squeezed in one little possible endgame scenario in which the crew makes it out alive again and I don't have to basically murder my space-BFFs to win, even if there's like a 10% chance of getting that ending, I'd be eternally grateful.  Too late to really impact the story at this point, sure, but if the tweets are to be believed, I'm going to spend half the game sobbing anyway, so is wanting to watch the credits roll with a stupid, satisfied grin on my face too much to ask?

The reason I play Mass Effect can be summed up in one sentence.

"You know what, reality? #$*% you. We're winning."

They are tweeting that you'll be sobbing because there is going to be loss.  I mean, this is an assumption, yes, but it's better than the other assumption: that it's possible to come away unscathed from a galactic war.  They aren't going to take away that emotional experience from the dedicated completionist fans, especially from the dedicated completionist fans.  I really think you need to look more at what's likely to happen in ME3, and less at what you want to happen.  For your own sake.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 14 octobre 2011 - 12:02 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Biotic Sage wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Renegades: it is possible to sustain quite heavy casualties during the suicide mission without a derpy Shepard. In my canon run we lost Kasumi, Samara, Thane and Jack, and Shepard did everything right. It was just bad luck.

Nonsense. You obviously did not do everything right, otherwise they would have survived. There are no random character deaths.

I'm gonna have to agree with Marshy here...that is complete nonsense.  If you upgraded your ship and got everyone's loyalty, you should have no deaths.  Maybe ONE death on the last part since Bioware kind of got sneaky with making it matter how many assault rifles/what type of armor you left at the "hold the line."  But that one death is very unlikely.  I avoided it by luck.

Well, that's only true if you metagame.  In-universe, you'd have a hard time arguing that any of the decisions that led to those casualties were the wrong ones.

[Soul Cool]

marshalleck wrote...
 Oh, so you play for cheap escapism.

Absolutely. There's nothing else to this game. What were you expecting, some actual meaning or emotional involvement? Hah, go play some other game.

[TobyHasEyes]

marshalleck wrote...

Soul Cool wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...
So if the fine folks at Bioware have squeezed in one little possible endgame scenario in which the crew makes it out alive again and I don't have to basically murder my space-BFFs to win, even if there's like a 10% chance of getting that ending, I'd be eternally grateful.  Too late to really impact the story at this point, sure, but if the tweets are to be believed, I'm going to spend half the game sobbing anyway, so is wanting to watch the credits roll with a stupid, satisfied grin on my face too much to ask?

The reason I play Mass Effect can be summed up in one sentence.

"You know what, reality? #$*% you. We're winning."

Oh, so you play for cheap escapism.

 What is so cheap about escapism?

[Biotic Sage]

Soul Cool wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
 Oh, so you play for cheap escapism.

Absolutely. There's nothing else to this game. What were you expecting, some actual meaning or emotional involvement? Hah, go play some other game.

I think Bioware would be insulted by this.  At the very least they would feel like they have failed in their vision thus far.

[Soul Cool]

Biotic Sage wrote...
They are tweeting that you'll be sobbing because there is going to be loss.  They aren't going to take away that emotional experience from the dedicated completionist fans, especially from the dedicated completionist fans.  I really think you need to look more at what's likely to happen in ME3, and less at what you want to happen.  For your own sake.

I won't be sobbing. I''d gladdy kill every single one of my squadmates as long as I get to beat the Reapers. I'd sacrficie entire star systems, entire races. I'd kill off the galaxy if it meant I won.

[Biotic Sage]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Renegades: it is possible to sustain quite heavy casualties during the suicide mission without a derpy Shepard. In my canon run we lost Kasumi, Samara, Thane and Jack, and Shepard did everything right. It was just bad luck.

Nonsense. You obviously did not do everything right, otherwise they would have survived. There are no random character deaths.

I'm gonna have to agree with Marshy here...that is complete nonsense.  If you upgraded your ship and got everyone's loyalty, you should have no deaths.  Maybe ONE death on the last part since Bioware kind of got sneaky with making it matter how many assault rifles/what type of armor you left at the "hold the line."  But that one death is very unlikely.  I avoided it by luck.

Well, that's only true if you metagame.  In-universe, you'd have a hard time arguing that any of the decisions that led to those casualties were the wrong ones.

I've already argued that, and it wasn't a hard time at all. 

[Biotic Sage]

Soul Cool wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...
They are tweeting that you'll be sobbing because there is going to be loss.  They aren't going to take away that emotional experience from the dedicated completionist fans, especially from the dedicated completionist fans.  I really think you need to look more at what's likely to happen in ME3, and less at what you want to happen.  For your own sake.

I won't be sobbing. I''d gladdy kill every single one of my squadmates as long as I get to beat the Reapers. I'd sacrficie entire star systems, entire races. I'd kill off the galaxy if it meant I won.

Hahaha Then you are not on the same page as the others arguing for "escapism" around here, just fyi.

Edit* I'm starting to feel like a troll in this thread.  I'm not this passionate about anything else, but when it comes to storytelling and narrative theory, I mean, that's what my background is in.  That's what I've written 20+ page papers on and got 2 degrees for.  That's my passion.  I've read countless articles and books on the subject.  So I apologize if I'm arguing too hard, but honestly, I can't walk away from this discussion.  I'd like to, but I can't.  I am compelled to stay, it's my nature and my programming.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 14 octobre 2011 - 12:08 .

[Soul Cool]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Soul Cool wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...
They are tweeting that you'll be sobbing because there is going to be loss.  They aren't going to take away that emotional experience from the dedicated completionist fans, especially from the dedicated completionist fans.  I really think you need to look more at what's likely to happen in ME3, and less at what you want to happen.  For your own sake.

I won't be sobbing. I''d gladdy kill every single one of my squadmates as long as I get to beat the Reapers. I'd sacrficie entire star systems, entire races. I'd kill off the galaxy if it meant I won.

Hahaha Then you are not on the same page as the others arguing for "escapism" around here, just fyi.

I don't mind. I never claimed to be on the same page as them, and they definitely don't want to claim me.

[Athayniel]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Yeah...that's not my assertion at all.  I hope I'm not being lumped in with the "they" in your statement there.  In fact, I'm not sure I've seen anyone in this thread make that assertion (at least recently, I haven't read all the way back).

It has actually been put forward before in this thread which is why I used it.

As you already know, my way of doing it wouldn't bring up any kind of either/or decision like that. Not a story-based one, I should say. It would be a situation such as Shep's team being under heavy fire, as is another of your squad's teams, because I always felt it was vaguely ridiculous to leave so many able fighters on board the Normandy when they could be useful on the ground. So depending on how you play, how well the AI fights you and keeps you pinned and how the fight progresses, it's possible one or more characters on the other team might die. So the choice becomes do you accept the death or do you reload and replay the mission? Shepard didn't do anything wrong, didn't make any sub-optimal choices, the enemy just happened to kill one or more of Team Shep in battle. If it's an important enough battle they could even add cutscenes showing you the moment they are overwhelmed and killed. That's the sort of thing I could accept, because I would definitely reload and try again.

[marshalleck]

Soul Cool wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...
They are tweeting that you'll be sobbing because there is going to be loss.  They aren't going to take away that emotional experience from the dedicated completionist fans, especially from the dedicated completionist fans.  I really think you need to look more at what's likely to happen in ME3, and less at what you want to happen.  For your own sake.

I won't be sobbing. I''d gladdy kill every single one of my squadmates as long as I get to beat the Reapers. I'd sacrficie entire star systems, entire races. I'd kill off the galaxy if it meant I won.

That's so inefficient. If you're going to destroy the galaxy, just kick back and let the Reapers do it for you.

[Soul Cool]

marshalleck wrote...

Soul Cool wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...
They are tweeting that you'll be sobbing because there is going to be loss.  They aren't going to take away that emotional experience from the dedicated completionist fans, especially from the dedicated completionist fans.  I really think you need to look more at what's likely to happen in ME3, and less at what you want to happen.  For your own sake.

I won't be sobbing. I''d gladdy kill every single one of my squadmates as long as I get to beat the Reapers. I'd sacrficie entire star systems, entire races. I'd kill off the galaxy if it meant I won.

That's so inefficient. If you're going to destroy the galaxy, just kick back and let the Reapers do it for you.

The Reapers aren't going to destroy the galaxy, they're going to harvest it.

[marshalleck]

Soul Cool wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Soul Cool wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...
They are tweeting that you'll be sobbing because there is going to be loss.  They aren't going to take away that emotional experience from the dedicated completionist fans, especially from the dedicated completionist fans.  I really think you need to look more at what's likely to happen in ME3, and less at what you want to happen.  For your own sake.

I won't be sobbing. I''d gladdy kill every single one of my squadmates as long as I get to beat the Reapers. I'd sacrficie entire star systems, entire races. I'd kill off the galaxy if it meant I won.

That's so inefficient. If you're going to destroy the galaxy, just kick back and let the Reapers do it for you.

The Reapers aren't going to destroy the galaxy, they're going to harvest it.

I'm aware of that. I'm also aware of the intent behind your saying you'd "kill off the galaxy" so no need to split hairs over it. 

[Soul Cool]

marshalleck wrote...
I'm aware of that. I'm also aware of the intent behind your saying you'd "kill off the galaxy" so no need to split hairs over it.

But that leaves out accomplishing my primary goal. Do you hate people that want to be successful?

[Il Divo]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Well, that's only true if you metagame.  In-universe, you'd have a hard time arguing that any of the decisions that led to those casualties were the wrong ones.

While that might be true, it's still problematic because it's not always so simple to distance myself from outside knowledge. Quite simply, when the game world says "there is no  third option", as in the case of saving Kaidan or Ashley, there is no opportunity for metagame knowledge to even take hold; you're stuck in the middle of a "hard decision" because there is no way out, without some sacrifice. A perfect ending is in defiance of this.

Someone brought up the Circle Ritual in DA:O earlier. I certainly could take an in-character perspective and assume that something bad will happen while I'm gone, but that's still playing the game. As the player, I don't think the world is going to respond to my time away. For a choice to be genuinely "hard" and not simply in-character hard, there cannot be an "I win" button.

Modifié par Il Divo, 14 octobre 2011 - 12:16 .

[Biotic Sage]

Il Divo wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Well, that's only true if you metagame.  In-universe, you'd have a hard time arguing that any of the decisions that led to those casualties were the wrong ones.

While that might be true, it's still problematic because it's not always so simple to distance myself from outside knowledge. Quite simply, when the game world says "there is no  third option", as in the case of saving Kaidan or Ashley, there is no opportunity for metagame knowledge to even take hold; you're stuck in the middle of a "hard decision" because there is no way out, without some sacrifice. A perfect ending is in defiance of this.

Someone brought up the Circle Ritual in DA:O earlier. I certainly could take an in-character perspective and assume that something bad will happen while I'm gone, but that's still playing the game. As the player, I don't think the world is going to respond to my time away. For a choice to be genuinely "hard" and not simply in-character hard, there cannot be an "I win" button.

No matter how difficult it is to find that button or how hard it is to push.

[Aggie Punbot]

You know what would be a good compromise? Entirely random deaths of squadmates, both the identity and the number of them done in such a way that you can't just 'save and reload' after it happens (i.e. it is randomly determined at the start of a new game as an "invisible number" sort of deal)..

Imagine it: you do nothing right, you actively try to get everyone killed and then...everyone lives as a random act of code. Or, conversely, you do everything absolutely right but you lose 1/3 of your squadmates.

Now, imagine if this code changed for every playthrough: you would be guaranteed to get a different outcome every time you played the game and it would take longer for you to get bored because you really wouldn't know what was coming until it happened.

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 14 octobre 2011 - 12:18 .

[Il Divo]

Biotic Sage wrote...

No matter how difficult it is to find that button or how hard it is to push.

Agreed, although in this case I would argue that if a perfect ending must exist, I would (at the least) prefer it to be more obscure, which would prevent the likelihood of my knowing its existence. But let's be honest: how many Bioware games have featured obsure perfect endings? 

[jamesp81]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You are.
Because they are both NOT COMPATIBLE. How many times must I repeat that.

you have yet to demonstrate it is even possible for them to co-exist.

You can repeat until you die of asphyxiation.  Doesn't make it true.

Actually it does.
Because you have the gall of telling me what I want. You're telling me that your "solution" (which isn't one) will satisfy me, I'm telling you it will not....and you're telling me I'm wrong?
Without actually ever bothering to explain why...

From what planet do you hail fiend? Because it seems you have some very poor grasp of basic communication.

I didn't tell you what you wanted.  I told you what I wanted, and that there's no reason why we both can't have what we want.

There is a lack of communication skill going on here, and it's certainly not coming from my direction.

[wright1978]

Biotic Sage wrote...

AwesomeName wrote...

Star Wars was great but also a kids film; a lot of folk are hoping ME will be less juvenile and more moving than that.

In all likelihood I don't think both sides can get want they want from this. As I've said before both camps want to play the best playthrough possible but still get their outcome:

Camp A wants to: play a completionist run, make intelligent, informed decisions, all with the desire of saving everyone, and have no squaddies die.

Camp B wants to: play a completionist run, make intelligent, informed decisions, all with the desire of saving everyone, and have some squaddies die despite that.

You didn't get that in the SM (which, incidentally, I was cool with, since the collectors are small-time compared to the Reapers). In the SM, you had to either not be a completionist (a casual player) or make poor decisions in order for anyone to die - and, personally, that feels awfully forced. Why would my Shepard, who wants to try to save everyone do all that, so that I can get that kind of drama? I would have to assume my Shepard was quite foolish for those playthroughs, and I don't like that. Just as a lot of you would hate having an ending where the only way to save your whole squad is to lose a population in the process.

Right.  It's simple logic.  The two are mutually exclusive.  Premise A and Premise B do not lead to the same conclusion.  JeweledLeah, it doesn't matter if you know about the ending or not.  That's irrelevant to the mutual exclusivity.

AwesomeName, you and I are on the same page.

Very eloquently put AwesomeName. Those on extreme ends who want forced deaths or a complete pain free playthrough won't find a middle ground. Those inbetween though i feel can be accomodated in the same game but It just requires not using completionism as the primary determining factor in life & death and instead to introduce more intelligent choices. Choices where the rational choice and the emotional choice are at odds with eachother and there are reasonable consequences. By that i don't mean lose a species etc but losing a strategic resource etc if you get the emotional reward of saving a squaddie which puts you on the path for a slightly different ending than if you sacrificed him/her for the greater good.

[Biotic Sage]

TS2Aggie wrote...

You know what would be a good compromise? Entirely random deaths of squadmates, both the identity and the number of them done in such a way that you can't just 'save and reload' after it happens (i.e. it is randomly determined at the start of a new game as an "invisible number" sort of deal)..

Imagine it: you do nothing right, you actively try to get everyone killed and then...everyone lives as a random act of code. Or, conversely, you do everything absolutely right but you lose 1/3 of your squadmates.

Now, imagine if this code changed for every playthrough: you would be guaranteed to get a different outcome every time you played the game and it would take longer for you to get bored because you really wouldn't know what was coming until it happened.

Haha While that would be interesting, it would not be good storytelling.  There needs to be some level of scriptedness.  For example, I think it would be great if on a certain mission, a situation arises where your squadmate will take it upon his/herself to make the decision to sacrifice his/herself.  I don't think this should be in a random side mission or happen sometimes and not happen others.  If it makes sense from a storytelling perspective for something like that to happen at a certain point, then it should happen at that point.  Of course, characters should be making decisions that stay true to their characterization, so if in my example you have Jack or Zaeed with you, they would obviously not make the selfless-sacrifice decision; they are not selfless characters. 

So yes, a degree of possible variation, but also a degree of scriptedness.

[Athayniel]

TS2Aggie wrote...

You know what would be a good compromise? Entirely random deaths of squadmates, both the identity and the number of them done in such a way that you can't just 'save and reload' after it happens (i.e. it is randomly determined at the start of a new game as an "invisible number" sort of deal)..

Imagine it: you do nothing right, you actively try to get everyone killed and then...everyone lives as a random act of code. Or, conversely, you do everything absolutely right but you lose 1/3 of your squadmates.

Now, imagine if this code changed for every playthrough: you would be guaranteed to get a different outcome every time you played the game and it would take longer for you to get bored because you really wouldn't know what was coming until it happened.

I think you've found the one idea everyone in this thread would hate.Those who want hard choices which lead to deaths wouldn't get what they want, and those who want to be able to save everyone wouldn't get what they want.