4309 réponses à ce sujet

[Biotic Sage]

Il Divo wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

No matter how difficult it is to find that button or how hard it is to push.

Agreed, although in this case I would argue that if a perfect ending must exist, I would (at the least) prefer it to be more obscure, which would prevent the likelihood of my knowing its existence. But let's be honest: how many Bioware games have featured obsure perfect endings? 

Haha 0 until now, as we both know.  But I'm hoping they take some real risks with ME3.  It's their baby, after all, and the climax they've been waiting for.  There's never been a Bioware game like ME3.

[Soul Cool]

Athayniel wrote...

TS2Aggie wrote...

You know what would be a good compromise? Entirely random deaths of squadmates, both the identity and the number of them done in such a way that you can't just 'save and reload' after it happens (i.e. it is randomly determined at the start of a new game as an "invisible number" sort of deal)..

Imagine it: you do nothing right, you actively try to get everyone killed and then...everyone lives as a random act of code. Or, conversely, you do everything absolutely right but you lose 1/3 of your squadmates.

Now, imagine if this code changed for every playthrough: you would be guaranteed to get a different outcome every time you played the game and it would take longer for you to get bored because you really wouldn't know what was coming until it happened.

I think you've found the one idea everyone in this thread would hate.Those who want hard choices which lead to deaths wouldn't get what they want, and those who want to be able to save everyone wouldn't get what they want.

Then that is obviously the choice BioWare should go with.

[Athayniel]

Soul Cool wrote...
Then that is obviously the choice BioWare should go with.

But that just means that the first order of business for ME3 saved game editor programmers would be to find that invisible number.

Modifié par Athayniel, 14 octobre 2011 - 12:27 .

[Soul Cool]

Athayniel wrote...

Soul Cool wrote...
Then that is obviously the choice BioWare should go with.

But that just means that the first order of business for ME3 saved game editor programmers would be to find that invisible number.

Yes.

[Il Divo]

Athayniel wrote...


I think you've found the one idea everyone in this thread would hate.Those who want hard choices which lead to deaths wouldn't get what they want, and those who want to be able to save everyone wouldn't get what they want.

This. If who dies is affected based on my decisions, then that's fine, but quite literally random character death is the worst possible solution. If Bioware kills a character, it should be because I chose to make the sacrifice or because they designed the plot around it.

[Biotic Sage]

Il Divo wrote...

Athayniel wrote...


I think you've found the one idea everyone in this thread would hate.Those who want hard choices which lead to deaths wouldn't get what they want, and those who want to be able to save everyone wouldn't get what they want.

This. If who dies is affected based on my decisions, then that's fine, but quite literally random character death is the worst possible solution. If Bioware kills a character, it should be because I chose to make the sacrifice or because they designed the plot around it.

You are laying down so much truth so effortlessly right now my head is about to explode.

[Il Divo]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Athayniel wrote...


I think you've found the one idea everyone in this thread would hate.Those who want hard choices which lead to deaths wouldn't get what they want, and those who want to be able to save everyone wouldn't get what they want.

This. If who dies is affected based on my decisions, then that's fine, but quite literally random character death is the worst possible solution. If Bioware kills a character, it should be because I chose to make the sacrifice or because they designed the plot around it.

You are laying down so much truth so effortlessly right now my head is about to explode.

Good, good. Use your aggressive feelings, boy! Let the hatred flow through you!

[Biotic Sage]

Il Divo wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Athayniel wrote...


I think you've found the one idea everyone in this thread would hate.Those who want hard choices which lead to deaths wouldn't get what they want, and those who want to be able to save everyone wouldn't get what they want.

This. If who dies is affected based on my decisions, then that's fine, but quite literally random character death is the worst possible solution. If Bioware kills a character, it should be because I chose to make the sacrifice or because they designed the plot around it.

You are laying down so much truth so effortlessly right now my head is about to explode.

Good, good. Use your aggressive feelings, boy! Let the hatred flow through you!

I'm all paragon light side my friend.  :innocent:  But the frustration from this endless discussion has brought me the closest I've ever come to renegading using force lightning.

[Il Divo]

Fair enough. Rather than fight you on this, we'll simply have to allow our philosophical differences on the morality of using force choke.

[Biotic Sage]

Il Divo wrote...

Fair enough. Rather than fight you on this, we'll simply have to allow our philosophical differences on the morality of using force choke.

Haha no I was joking.  I liked Jolee Bindo's view of the force, but George Lucas has since stated "you're doing it wrong!"  Apparently Star Wars is only for kids...George Lucas could have told me earlier, then I wouldn't have gone into my mid 20's thinking about the philosophical nature of the Force and the inherent good/evil of the light and dark sides. 

Apparently I'm not allowed to like it once I reach The Age of Not Believing.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 14 octobre 2011 - 12:40 .

[Il Divo]

Ah, George Lucas. Fun Guy. I've heard that the Blu-Ray editions of the original trilogy are even worse. Now, Darth Vader actually screams "NO!" Episode 3-style right before tossing Palpatine into the pit.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Il Divo wrote...

Ah, George Lucas. Fun Guy. I've heard that the Blu-Ray editions of the original trilogy are even worse. Now, Darth Vader actually screams "NO!" Episode 3-style right before tossing Palpatine into the pit.

Yeah...

What is worse is that he refuse to release the original versions of the movies.

[Soul Cool]

Lizardviking wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Ah, George Lucas. Fun Guy. I've heard that the Blu-Ray editions of the original trilogy are even worse. Now, Darth Vader actually screams "NO!" Episode 3-style right before tossing Palpatine into the pit.

Yeah...

What is worse is that he refuse to release the original versions of the movies.

It's the reason I still own a VCR and the original series.

[CaptainZaysh]

Biotic Sage wrote...

I've already argued that, and it wasn't a hard time at all. 

Challenge accepted!  Here's my after action report:

The mission was to disrupt Collector attacks on human colonies.  We breached enemy defences beyond the Omega-4 Relay, located the enemy base of operations, and assaulted it.  The base was neutralised by means of a timed neutron energy pulse and is now in human control.

During the assault we suffered the following casualties:
Goto, K (KIA)
Samara (KIA)
Krios, T (KIA)
Jack (KIA)

Mission Specialist Goto was killed as we secured the first rendezvous point.  She was killed by an enemy rocket while helping me seal a blast door against the enemy counter attack.

Mission Specialist Samara was killed by the seeker swarms as we fired and manoeuvred through the swarm chamber.

Mission Specialist Krios was mortally wounded while leading a diversion attack to cover our move through the swarm chamber.  He died of a gunshot wound shortly after we secured the second RV.

Mission Specialist Jack was killed by a debris fall caused by our destruction of the human reaper larva.

The mission was a stunning success.  We lost four guys.  I honestly can't see a way to second guess this Shepard's decisions without metagaming.  Like I said: Shepard did everything right.  It was just bad luck.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

I've already argued that, and it wasn't a hard time at all. 

Challenge accepted!  Here's my after action report:

The mission was to disrupt Collector attacks on human colonies.  We breached enemy defences beyond the Omega-4 Relay, located the enemy base of operations, and assaulted it.  The base was neutralised by means of a timed neutron energy pulse and is now in human control.

During the assault we suffered the following casualties:
Goto, K (KIA)
Samara (KIA)
Krios, T (KIA)
Jack (KIA)

Mission Specialist Goto was killed as we secured the first rendezvous point.  She was killed by an enemy rocket while helping me seal a blast door against the enemy counter attack.

Mission Specialist Samara was killed by the seeker swarms as we fired and manoeuvred through the swarm chamber.

Mission Specialist Krios was mortally wounded while leading a diversion attack to cover our move through the swarm chamber.  He died of a gunshot wound shortly after we secured the second RV.

Mission Specialist Jack was killed by a debris fall caused by our destruction of the human reaper larva.

The mission was a stunning success.  We lost four guys.  I honestly can't see a way to second guess this Shepard's decisions without metagaming.  Like I said: Shepard did everything right.  It was just bad luck.

Everything right?

You selected an assasin as your squad leader`
"EDIT"

Who was your biotic specialist?

Modifié par Lizardviking, 14 octobre 2011 - 12:58 .

[Athayniel]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

The mission was a stunning success.  We lost four guys.  I honestly can't see a way to second guess this Shepard's decisions without metagaming.  Like I said: Shepard did everything right.  It was just bad luck.

They cannot divorce their Shepard's decisionmaking from their meta-knowledge of events. From what I can tell you didn't have Kasumi's or Jack's loyalty, and you picked the wrong character to lead the fire team and create the bubble. As far as they are concerned your Shep's a derp.

[Biotic Sage]

Athayniel wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

The mission was a stunning success.  We lost four guys.  I honestly can't see a way to second guess this Shepard's decisions without metagaming.  Like I said: Shepard did everything right.  It was just bad luck.

They cannot divorce their Shepard's decisionmaking from their meta-knowledge of events. From what I can tell you didn't have Kasumi's or Jack's loyalty, and you picked the wrong character to lead the fire team and create the bubble. As far as they are concerned your Shep's a derp.

Haha no.  The player is derp; don't pawn it off on Shepard.  You would have to be derp if you selected someone who had no small squad leadership experience for the fire teams, no tech expertise for the vents, and if you selected someone who wasn't a biotic master for the biotic bubble.  How in the hell is that meta-game knowledge?  That's just common sense if you are truly paying attention to the game.

And you know loyalty is important.  Bioware tells you that loyalty is important.  In the game they make it clear that loyal squadmates will perform better; they get upgraded powers/abilities, they say they aren't distracted anymore, and they even put a convenient little red circle under them to beat the point over your head.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 14 octobre 2011 - 01:12 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Lizardviking wrote...
You selected an assasin as your squad leader`
"EDIT"

Yeah.  It was a diversion attack, a ruse.  I think Thane was the most experienced at manipulating the psychology of a security force.  It was the right call: they pulled a lot of heat off us enabling us to make it through the swarm chamber.

Lizardviking wrote...
Who was your biotic specialist?

Jack.  She kept the field up right up to the doorway.  Samara and I were firing and manoeuvring behind her, and Samara just fell behind.  It happens.  I would have loved to have kept everybody alive but the enemy always gets a vote.

[Athayniel]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Haha no.  The player is derp; don't pawn it off on Shepard.  You would have to be derp if you selected someone who had no small squad leadership experience for the fire teams, no tech expertise for the vents, and if you selected someone who wasn't a biotic master for the biotic bubble.  How in the hell is that meta-game knowledge?  That's just common sense if you are truly paying attention to the game.

Possibly, but I bet they picked Miranda or Jacob as their biotic specialist and a case could be made for either one as to why they *should* be effective in the job.

*edit* they picked a disloyal Jack, whose loyalty it is possible to lose after attaining it. That cost them two lives. I am of the mindset that I'd have prefered if BioWare hadn't put so much emphasis on having loyal squadmates during the course of the game.

Modifié par Athayniel, 14 octobre 2011 - 01:14 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Saving the galaxy, Earth, and SOME squad memebrs is not a reward?

It is, but working your ass off and wanting to do poorly is... weird.

Why would that result be poor?
Given the circumstances, the result itself is miracolous.

You don't even know how and why they die.
So your statement is utter bollocks. You may call it a bad idea, but bad writing? Your statement makes no sense. Does not compute.

In a game about player choice, INTENTIONALLY forcing players to suffer for doing what you wanted them to do is a bad design decision.  Making the game basically unwinnable if somebody likes your characters will kill your whole story, because those that choose the plot will stop caring about the characters, and then are less likely to play again, while those that choose the characters will think the plot is an ass, and will also be less likely to play again.  If you plan on selling DLC later, you can't shoot replayability in the foot.  People will not replay the game if their efforts are not rewarded.

you know, hamming about "player choice" is getting old.

IT DOES NOT MEAN WHAT YOU THINK IT DOES.
Player choice being important doesn't mean that the player gets to make a decision on everything OR that the outcome of everything will be as the player desires.

It only means that there will be planety of choices and they will have consequences.

And consequences do give replayability. The issue here is that you want the consequences to be to your liking. Player 2suffering" has nothing to with it.

[Biotic Sage]

Athayniel wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

Haha no.  The player is derp; don't pawn it off on Shepard.  You would have to be derp if you selected someone who had no small squad leadership experience for the fire teams, no tech expertise for the vents, and if you selected someone who wasn't a biotic master for the biotic bubble.  How in the hell is that meta-game knowledge?  That's just common sense if you are truly paying attention to the game.

Possibly, but I bet they picked Miranda or Jacob as their biotic specialist and a case could be made for either one as to why they *should* be effective in the job.

The biotic abilities of each squadmate is made quite clear.  Jack and Samara are KNOWN to be more adept at biotics than Jacob and Miranda.  This is in game knowledge.  No case can be made that Miranda/Jacob are the better choice, although you could of course make the case that they should be able to do the job too.  It boils down to this: you know to choose Jack/Samara over them when it comes to biotic specialization.

And good lord, this argument, AGAIN, is irrelevant to the argument of whether or not squadmate deaths are good for the storytelling.  You have gotten me off on this tangent for the last time, people, this I swear.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 14 octobre 2011 - 01:13 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

CaptainZaysh wrote...
Yeah.  It was a diversion attack, a ruse.  I think Thane was the most experienced at manipulating the psychology of a security force.  It was the right call: they pulled a lot of heat off us enabling us to make it through the swarm chamber.

Here is a hint. Thane is an assasin, a lone wolf. Thane has no buisness leading others into battle. He is better off being the distraction, not the distraction leader.

Jack.  She kept the field up right up to the doorway.  Samara and I were firing and manoeuvring behind her, and Samara just fell behind.  It happens.  I would have loved to have kept everybody alive but the enemy always gets a vote.

One question. Was Samara loyal?. If yes, then Shepard should have used the powerful Asari justicar who was 100% commited to the mission to hold the barrier, not the mental wreck.

Your Shepard displayed poor jugdement and poor usage of resources given to complete the mission.

[CaptainZaysh]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Athayniel wrote...

Possibly, but I bet they picked Miranda or Jacob as their biotic specialist and a case could be made for either one as to why they *should* be effective in the job.

The biotic abilities of each squadmate is made quite clear.  Jack and Samara are KNOWN to be more adept at biotics than Jacob and Miranda.  This is in game knowledge.  No case can be made that Miranda/Jacob are the better choice, although you could of course make the case that they should be able to do the job too.  It boils down to this: you know to choose Jack/Samara over them when it comes to biotic specialization.

Yeah, I picked Jack.  Samara was the alternative choice, but frankly I needed her on an assault rifle.  I don't think we'd have made it the other way around.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

MEh..SW is not good writing. It is ENTERTAINING ESCAPISM.

Don't tell me you like the prequels better.  I might have to give you a paddlin'.

Anyway, I don't know if you realized this, but ALL storytelling is escapism.  We don't watch movies or read books to be constantly reminded of the chair we are sitting in or that thing that we have to do by Monday.  All of it is entertainment; we do it to kill time and feel good.  I said this before, but immersion is really just a measure of how well a certain outlet is providing that escapist entertainment.

All fiction, all drama, all comedy is a temporary escape from our daily lives.

To a point.

Difference is, I want to escape in a credible, immersive world...not happy sunshine land.

I dont' watch movies or read books to feel all happy and gushy. I watch moves and read books to follow interesting stories - and wherever those stories take me.

EDIT: prequels? If you refer to the young Anakin bits with Jar-Jar..than that's garbage.