4309 réponses à ce sujet

[KBomb]

wright1978 wrote...

Apologies Kbomb. I misconstrued your point as i thought your talk about options referring to the Suicide Mission meant you wanted a repeat the zero consequences in it for saving everyone.

It's okay. No harm done.

[jamesp81]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

So I read all the new posts and it seems that quite a few people think I'm a big sissy who wants everything to be perfect with Care Bears and sh*t.

You people. Learn how to goddamn read.

Furthermore, those that disagree tend to advocate realism over escapism, saying that engaging in a positive fantasy would be too unrealistic to keep their attention. To which I say this: MULTIPLE ENDINGS. STOP RAINING ON MY PARADE.

I think the problem here is that most of you would try to save everyone if you knew it was possible, and since you are operating under the assumption that the most powerful way for a story to move you is to make you feel grief, you don't want that option to be available to you since your tendency towards perfectionism is at odds with your tastes in literature. This can be balanced by having both positive and negative consequences to your actions. For example, doubling back to rescue Liara would mean leaving a certain point undefended. Reaper forces capture that point, and you lose a lot of soldiers and a strategic stronghold. Or have the factors that prevent/trigger a death be subtle and hard to predict: befriending a batarian squadmate shows him that the fight is worth fighting after all, and later in the game he sacrifices himself to defend the team. Be a dick to him/don't talk to him, and he's more interested in saving himself, thus he takes off and you're short a squadmate for the rest of the mission.

+1 to the bolded.

The best stories are the ones that leave you thinking "there's no way in hell the goodguys are getting out of this one" but they still do anyway.  Lord of the Rings did this masterfully.

[AdmiralCheez]

Lizardviking wrote...

Jugding by ME2. Multiple ending are anything but a compromise.

You did read the paragraph after that where I explained how to fix it, right?

[Prince Zeel]

jamesp81 wrote...



The best stories are the ones that leave you thinking "there's no way in hell the goodguys are getting out of this one" but they still do anyway.  Lord of the Rings did this masterfully.

Who are you kidding?

Do those endings HONESTLY convince you that the MAIN characters are going to die? LOL. Joking aside man. A good ending is not so much "everyone survive" or "everyone die" . I like an ending that is unexpected and wraps up the plot nicely. yet, still brings forth new questions. Also, though we have an ending, the story still feels like it continues outside the audience. if you get my drift. Good example; Princess Mononoke.




By the way, Lord of The Ring had to have been one of the ****tiest, longest peice of craps I ever did watch,

[Dave of Canada]

 The sheer existence of a happy ending ruins the drama, tension and emotions created from such scenes when you have to force yourself into it. There's no drama when I intentionally let half my team die, there's no sadness when I see Tali take a face rocket because that's not how my protagonist would act.

I'd have to force my protagonist to act stupid in the sake of throwing in ineffective drama into the story, something which I've done countless times in Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age: Origins but it doesn't make me feel anything. Slicing Connor's throat means nothing because I had to pick the dialogue line which was essentially "I don't want to go the Circle, it's too far away and my legs are sore".

During my first playthrough of Mass Effect 2, nobody died on the Suicide Mission. The scene which they had advocated for it's difficulty and had prepared me up for.... dropped me flat, no emotion had be invoked and I finished the game without a care in the world.

Oh right, I guess it's my fault for playing the game correctly. I should achieve the "stupid" ending because I want drama, an ending which means absolutely nothing because I orchestrated everything. How should I feel sad if I intentionally left Tali to die? How should I feel sad if Zaeed decided to eat bullets because I wanted to make it sad?

[Prince Zeel]

Okay. WHAT IS this topic about?

You guys want poetic, meaningful crap?

stop playing video games.

[littlezack]

Prince Zeel wrote...

Okay. WHAT IS this topic about?

You guys want poetic, meaningful crap?

stop playing video games.

You again? Really? Do you have nothing better to do with your day?

[BubbleSauce]

Prince Zeel wrote...

Okay. WHAT IS this topic about?

You guys want poetic, meaningful crap?

stop playing video games.

Video games are a very good source of "poetic meaningful crap." Videogames are a medium of art and should treated as such. Sure they have a younger, more open-minded fan base, so you can have a little bit more fun with how you portray them, but anyone who says they aren't a valid form of art is dragging the industry down.

[Prince Zeel]

Oh goodness, stop and listen. I'm making a point here.
Isn't a sci-fi fantasy game the WORST place to expect a "meaningful" ending?


Seriously guys, It'd be like going to a Highschool Football game, bringing orange juice and a warm sweater.

[wright1978]

jamesp81 wrote...

+1 to the bolded.

The best stories are the ones that leave you thinking "there's no way in hell the goodguys are getting out of this one" but they still do anyway.  Lord of the Rings did this masterfully.

Not sure i agree. Lord of Rings has several deaths(Boromir/Theoden) and consequences in the fact Frodo suffered continual pain from the witch king's wound. I'd argue the opposite the best films are often the ones that have a hard hitting death to drive home the seriousness of the situation. Wrath of Khan is a classic because of Spock's death. In Serenity, Wash's death was needed to highlight how crazy bringing an army of Reavers was.

[BubbleSauce]

Prince Zeel wrote...

Oh goodness, stop and listen. I'm making a point here.
Isn't a sci-fi fantasy game the WORST place to expect a "meaningful" ending?

No, not by any stretch of the imagination, the mass effect universe is one that brings up a variety topics that are rarely touched upon in games. Racism, oppresion, civil liberty, loss of control etc. Mass effect has conveyed a variety of emotions in me and fellow players. Do seriously you think that Mass Effect can't be meaningful or artistic just because it's set in space? Dear god man, listen to yourself.  

Modifié par BubbleSauce, 07 octobre 2011 - 07:39 .

[CptBomBom00]

To hell with this from now one I going to build a cryomachine and freeze my selff in it till 2185.

[AdmiralCheez]

Dave of Canada wrote...

 The sheer existence of a happy ending ruins the drama, tension and emotions created from such scenes when you have to force yourself into it. There's no drama when I intentionally let half my team die, there's no sadness when I see Tali take a face rocket because that's not how my protagonist would act.

Then make the SM more difficult.

I'd have to force my protagonist to act stupid in the sake of throwing in ineffective drama into the story, something which I've done countless times in Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age: Origins but it doesn't make me feel anything. Slicing Connor's throat means nothing because I had to pick the dialogue line which was essentially "I don't want to go the Circle, it's too far away and my legs are sore".

Then have smart decisions backfire.

During my first playthrough of Mass Effect 2, nobody died on the Suicide Mission. The scene which they had advocated for it's difficulty and had prepared me up for.... dropped me flat, no emotion had be invoked and I finished the game without a care in the world.

Really?  Because I kept holding my breath every time I thought someone would die, and when no one did, I was basically jumping up and down like YEAH, SUCK IT COLLECTORS.  Best damn ending ever.

Oh right, I guess it's my fault for playing the game correctly. I should achieve the "stupid" ending because I want drama, an ending which means absolutely nothing because I orchestrated everything. How should I feel sad if I intentionally left Tali to die? How should I feel sad if Zaeed decided to eat bullets because I wanted to make it sad?

Makes you realize how inherently dickish it is to kill off characters for drama, isn't it?  I feel just as empty and stupid when the plot does it for me, because I know the game's just trying to make me all sad and stuff.

[Xilizhra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

 The sheer existence of a happy ending ruins the drama, tension and emotions created from such scenes when you have to force yourself into it. There's no drama when I intentionally let half my team die, there's no sadness when I see Tali take a face rocket because that's not how my protagonist would act.

I'd have to force my protagonist to act stupid in the sake of throwing in ineffective drama into the story, something which I've done countless times in Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age: Origins but it doesn't make me feel anything. Slicing Connor's throat means nothing because I had to pick the dialogue line which was essentially "I don't want to go the Circle, it's too far away and my legs are sore".

During my first playthrough of Mass Effect 2, nobody died on the Suicide Mission. The scene which they had advocated for it's difficulty and had prepared me up for.... dropped me flat, no emotion had be invoked and I finished the game without a care in the world.

Oh right, I guess it's my fault for playing the game correctly. I should achieve the "stupid" ending because I want drama, an ending which means absolutely nothing because I orchestrated everything. How should I feel sad if I intentionally left Tali to die? How should I feel sad if Zaeed decided to eat bullets because I wanted to make it sad?

Unfortunately, this involves destroying the hopes of those who wanted a better ending and leaves it impossible for us to win as much as we'd like to, and plenty of people, including me, could still be pulled into the drama regardless. Leaving worse endings tries to meet you halfway as best as possible.

[Prince Zeel]

BubbleSauce wrote...

Prince Zeel wrote...

Oh goodness, stop and listen. I'm making a point here.
Isn't a sci-fi fantasy game the WORST place to expect a "meaningful" ending?

No, not by any stretch of the imagination, the mass effect universe is one that brings up a variety topics that are rarely touched upon in games. Racism, oppresion, civil liberty, loss of control etc. Mass effect has conveyed a variety of emotions in me and fellow players. Do seriously you think that Mass Effect can't be meaningful or artistic just because it's set in space? Dear god man, listen to yourself.  

"brings up" as in, lightly mentions and then runs as far away as possible. Sorry, "racism" was HARDLY touched on, a quick racist remark (im hoping by racism you mean humans vs aliens, because otherwise, racism was NOT touched upon)

"oppression" isn't a Controversial topic and it wasn't touched on at all. What game were you playing?!

Civil liberty. LOL!!! now you're just stretching. Me and you must be playing completely different games. My game had me punching people and visiting a asari strip club.
loss of control. Okay, not worth debunking

I not only think Mass Effect cant be meaningful, I KNOW. I've played both these games. Each of them had a strip club, some bull**** romance sex scene (the second game being as amped up as possible) and then a bunch of hardcore renegade options involving punching, shooting or kicking the **** out of something.

I'm sorry if you've mistaken this series for more than a fun shoot-em-up-with-a-decent-story. But its time to grow up.

[FeralEwok]

People are going to die in ME3. I do not think it can be avoided, but with squadmates dying I'd like to have multiple options from having majority of the team die or none at all. Afterall havent enough people on BSN complained that there are not enough options? and dont like having to be forced into situations? But thats just me talking, take it for what its worth.

I will say this, the original Star Wars triology got away with having all of the gang (luke, han, leia, chewie and the droids) make it through all 3 movies and yet there was still plenty of tension and drama. Its knowing that the threat of death is looming that creates a certain kind of tension, and doesnt necessarily mean that a bunch of people or at least main characters have to die in order to achieve it. Stargate Sg-1 managed to have many episodes over 10 years where you know none of the main cast is going to die (except for Dr. Jackson like 5 or 6 times) and yet you get caught up in the moment.

I think its important to note that there is not a set in stone structure to story telling but rather just some basic guidelines, as long as it is well written just about any author, director or whatever can pull off things that if it had been done by someone else would have made alot of people angry.

I will admit, however, that as long as it's done tastefully and not for the sake of just adding drama...a person's death can add alot of emotional weight. It just shouldnt be a mandatory thing simply because one group wants it that way.

If i am not saying anything thought provoking or meaningful I'll shut up now

[wright1978]

Xilizhra wrote...

Unfortunately, this involves destroying the hopes of those who wanted a better ending and leaves it impossible for us to win as much as we'd like to, and plenty of people, including me, could still be pulled into the drama regardless. Leaving worse endings tries to meet you halfway as best as possible.

Having an ending without consequences isn't meeting anyone halfway.

[KBomb]

Dave of Canada wrote...

 The sheer existence of a happy ending ruins the drama, tension and emotions created from such scenes when you have to force yourself into it. There's no drama when I intentionally let half my team die, there's no sadness when I see Tali take a face rocket because that's not how my protagonist would act.

I'd have to force my protagonist to act stupid in the sake of throwing in ineffective drama into the story, something which I've done countless times in Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age: Origins but it doesn't make me feel anything. Slicing Connor's throat means nothing because I had to pick the dialogue line which was essentially "I don't want to go the Circle, it's too far away and my legs are sore".

During my first playthrough of Mass Effect 2, nobody died on the Suicide Mission. The scene which they had advocated for it's difficulty and had prepared me up for.... dropped me flat, no emotion had be invoked and I finished the game without a care in the world.

Oh right, I guess it's my fault for playing the game correctly. I should achieve the "stupid" ending because I want drama, an ending which means absolutely nothing because I orchestrated everything. How should I feel sad if I intentionally left Tali to die? How should I feel sad if Zaeed decided to eat bullets because I wanted to make it sad?

 
Wow, really David? I don’t consider it a stupid ending and the fact you want to make it “sad” is just that. It’s what you feel that should happen. You. Having an option for an ending where you can save your teammates isn’t going to ruin the ending you want, you know. Your post is your opinion and I respect that, but it isn’t what I want to see happen for my Shepard. I don’t want to play the end of this trilogy and walk away with a sad feeling. Screw that, and if you or anyone else thinks it’s “stupid”, well. I don’t care. This is my gaming experience as much as it is yours.

[AdmiralCheez]

wright1978 wrote...

Having an ending without consequences isn't meeting anyone halfway.

I fail to see how an ending in which six specific people make it out alive is an ending without consequences.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 07 octobre 2011 - 08:03 .

[DoNotIngest]

Wait... Prince Zeel?


OMGNOWAI! KING ZEEL IS BACK! =DDD

[Homey C-Dawg]

I myself rather hope that we do get to save everyone as well.

I don't want it to be easy though. Not easy at all. But I do want it to be possible.

[Someone With Mass]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

 The sheer existence of a happy ending ruins the drama, tension and emotions created from such scenes when you have to force yourself into it. There's no drama when I intentionally let half my team die, there's no sadness when I see Tali take a face rocket because that's not how my protagonist would act.

Then make the SM more difficult.

I'd have to force my protagonist to act stupid in the sake of throwing in ineffective drama into the story, something which I've done countless times in Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age: Origins but it doesn't make me feel anything. Slicing Connor's throat means nothing because I had to pick the dialogue line which was essentially "I don't want to go the Circle, it's too far away and my legs are sore".

Then have smart decisions backfire.

During my first playthrough of Mass Effect 2, nobody died on the Suicide Mission. The scene which they had advocated for it's difficulty and had prepared me up for.... dropped me flat, no emotion had be invoked and I finished the game without a care in the world.

Really?  Because I kept holding my breath every time I thought someone would die, and when no one did, I was basically jumping up and down like YEAH, SUCK IT COLLECTORS.  Best damn ending ever.

Oh right, I guess it's my fault for playing the game correctly. I should achieve the "stupid" ending because I want drama, an ending which means absolutely nothing because I orchestrated everything. How should I feel sad if I intentionally left Tali to die? How should I feel sad if Zaeed decided to eat bullets because I wanted to make it sad?

Makes you realize how inherently dickish it is to kill off characters for drama, isn't it?  I feel just as empty and stupid when the plot does it for me, because I know the game's just trying to make me all sad and stuff.

This. 

There are other ways to create drama besides killing people too.

[wright1978]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Having an ending without consequences isn't meeting anyone halfway.

I fail to see how an ending in which six specific people make it out alive is an ending without consequences.

Dave of Canada was talking about the fact there are no consequences to the suicide mission 'happy ending'. I don't have a problem with the entire team making it out as long as there are serious consequences for keeping a full team alive. Having only deaths as screw up options isn't meeting anyone halfway.

[MiniMosher]

to be honest, I would like to have something like holding the line and dying with your entire crew together... going down in spartan style!

[Dave of Canada]

wright1978 wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Having an ending without consequences isn't meeting anyone halfway.

I fail to see how an ending in which six specific people make it out alive is an ending without consequences.

Dave of Canada was talking about the fact there are no consequences to the suicide mission 'happy ending'. I don't have a problem with the entire team making it out as long as there are serious consequences for keeping a full team alive. Having only deaths as screw up options isn't meeting anyone halfway.

I wasn't the one who said the quoted thing that time.