4309 réponses à ce sujet

[BatmanPWNS]

If someone is about to kill me then my squadmate better jump in the way! Shep is the leader, Shep is the one with the beacon and all the experience, Shep is the most important and any soldier should be willing to die for the cause.

Just my 2 pennies.
(No cents from me.)

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Well, I got choked up when the "sacrifice the Council" cutscene played.  And I actually felt shocked, hurt, and pissed when Al-Jilani brings up the Alliance casualties if you did it the other way.


Tears were not shed, but there was some OH F*CK all up in this.

Okay I admit I did shed a small tear in the "save the council", but it is the type of tear I shed when I see an awesome "Big goddamn heroes" moment. When the cavalry comes crashing down on the unsuspecting enemy ya know?

The manly type of tears.

I admit I got chocked up by leaving the council. But after playing ME2, the choice has effectivly been killed for me. Way to go Bioware!

As for the Al-Jilani. I did not feel shocked or hurt. Just "Oh shut up you bloody ****." (pardon the language).

I start crying on Tali's loyalty mission, though.  You know the part with the recording where the mom says goodbye to her kid?  Sadness forever.

That was a good moment I admit.

[Kaiser Shepard]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

They've got Patrick Weekes.  Anything is possible.

I was going to say "Too bad he isn't in charge, then.", but having just read a disgusting article over at his blog, I revised my opinion.

I think I might just go with the Paragon option at the end of Mordin's mission from now on, each and every time.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 14 octobre 2011 - 09:57 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

They've got Patrick Weekes.  Anything is possible.

I was going to say "Too bad he isn't in charge, then.", but having just read a disgusting article over at his blog, I might just go with the Paragon option at the end of Mordin's mission now, each and every time.

What blog? do you have a link?

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

A good moment indeed but with Cheez in charge that moment wouldn't have happened.

Bullsh*t.  War isn't a box of kittens.  Stop acting like I don't know that.

But it's proof that you can have drama through environment, which was one of the points I was making.

[AdmiralCheez]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

No, because it appears we are the minority when it comes to this issue, hence why having the game be a road fo hardships wouldn't be fanservice. Granted, it might be servicing the fans in giving them  the best product possible, instead of the one they think they want, but it's most definitely not fanservice.

Either way, it's pandering to a vocal group.  Ergo, vanservice.  How many of you there are doesn't matter.  Pretty sure the majority of players weren't demanding a f*ckable Garrus, but look what happened.

THERE IS NO ESCAPE.

[Nashiktal]

The shadow broker DLC actually did a good job at drama. *spoilers abound of course*


When Vasir and the shadow broker team bombed the building, their were innocent civilians caught in the blast and they were scattered all over outside and in. Some were alive but injured and were calling out in confusion, others were dying and giving their last breath toward telling you what happened.

I know I felt pretty bad when walking among the carnage, and then finding out you were responsible for causing all those deaths were even worse.

[chickenchasa]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

A good moment indeed but with Cheez in charge that moment wouldn't have happened.

Bullsh*t.  War isn't a box of kittens.  Stop acting like I don't know that.

But it's proof that you can have drama through environment, which was one of the points I was making.

Agreed, the whole situation with the galaxy in itself adds drama. Mordin's guilt over the genophage (and the genophage itself.), Thane's guilt over his son...does it all necessarily involve bloodshed? Well you can kinda kill the cannidate running for office, but- It's all done without the need for violence, and added to your reason to keep fighting...who wouldn't fight for moments where a father can reunite with his son and amend past actions?

Again I'd be alright if it was a tasteful death for a squadmate, but mandating it feels like it would cheapen this finale.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

A good moment indeed but with Cheez in charge that moment wouldn't have happened.

Bullsh*t.  War isn't a box of kittens.  Stop acting like I don't know that.

But it's proof that you can have drama through environment, which was one of the points I was making.

Yes it was a good moment. But I really think that I well made death scene can make you go bawling in tears and give you a sense of loss unlike ever before.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
"The protagonist's best friend dies" is a common trope in war stories, yes.  But it's not the only way to create drama.  It's the instant ramen of drama: cheap, easy, and when it's all you eat you get sick of it fast.  Creating tragedy and tension WITHOUT killing off the squad would show off incredible writing skill.

Tropes are not bad.
It's a common trope because it's true to life and it works.

You can call it cheap and easy all you want - it's not really.

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sure, sweety pie, protect everyone else (or as many as you can, which won't be everyone) from suffering what Shepard has suffered. It doesn't have to be vengeance. The point was this: adversity. Specifically, having your normally safe haven and safe friends touched by the enemy.

Struggling to prevent something from happening and succeeding is an adequate dramatic reward.  Works in reverse, too: you can't save all those people that died in the initial attack on Earth, but maybe you can save that one guy who deserves to keep on living.  Even the smallest victories count, and can help atone for greater failures.

So you suck at the game? Now it's become more clear. I can understand your position a lot better. However I don't suck at it, I'm good at it. So it's a mostly easy path. Hard moral choices are the only "difficulty" I'm presented with. So far those have been a let-down.

Says the man with the "we can't beat the Reapers" thread.

Seriously, though, so far, all we've been able to do is slow them down, which is only a minor inconvenience since they see time on a different scale, and take away their cool toys, which they like but don't need.  It's like throwing pebbles at a mountain.

I actually managed to crank it up to insanity and not die all over the place, so I guess I don't suck as much as I used to.

[Computer_God91]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

A good moment indeed but with Cheez in charge that moment wouldn't have happened.

Bullsh*t.  War isn't a box of kittens.  Stop acting like I don't know that.

Stop trying to make it a box of kittens then.

[AdmiralCheez]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Tropes are not bad.
It's a common trope because it's true to life and it works.

You can call it cheap and easy all you want - it's not really.

However, doing the same thing over and over lacks innovation.  Creativity stagnates.

[AdmiralCheez]

Computer_God91 wrote...

Stop trying to make it a box of kittens then.

It's more like having one kitten to cuddle when you've had a bad day, really.

[Kaiser Shepard]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

No, because it appears we are the minority when it comes to this issue, hence why having the game be a road fo hardships wouldn't be fanservice. Granted, it might be servicing the fans in giving them  the best product possible, instead of the one they think they want, but it's most definitely not fanservice.

Either way, it's pandering to a vocal group.  Ergo, vanservice.  How many of you there are doesn't matter.  Pretty sure the majority of players weren't demanding a f*ckable Garrus, but look what happened.

THERE IS NO ESCAPE.

Erhm, no. There wasn't a large naive majorty against Garrus being an LI.

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

A good moment indeed but with Cheez in charge that moment wouldn't have happened.

Bullsh*t.  War isn't a box of kittens.  Stop acting like I don't know that.

But it's proof that you can have drama through environment, which was one of the points I was making.

But you do act like you don't know that.

Lizardviking wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

They've got Patrick Weekes.  Anything is possible.

I was going to say "Too bad he isn't in charge, then.", but having just read a disgusting article over at his blog, I might just go with the Paragon option at the end of Mordin's mission now, each and every time.

What blog? do you have a link?

It's the first or second thing up there when you Google his name.

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Would Return of the Jedi be better if Vader didn't die at the end?

He was the bad guy, and his death was a redemption.  You don't see me arguing that Saren should have lived, do you?

Would Empire Strikes Back be better if Leia succeeded in rescuing Han Solo?

Han lived.  It looked like he died, sure, and it sucked at the time, but suddenly in RotJ he's back and awesome.

Would it have been better if Luke had been the clear winner in his duel with Vader?

Well, if he'd beaten him then and there, where the hell does the trilogy go?

Could have cut the melodramatic crap, though.  As "iconic" as the "I am your father" scene is, it's overdone to the point of hilarity.

But what would have been solved if Chewie or C-3PO or R2 died?  Would the story somehow be more valuable?

[Athayniel]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

But what would have been solved if Chewie or C-3PO or R2 died?  Would the story somehow be more valuable?

Do you know what they did to Chewie in the EU?

[Nashiktal]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...
"The protagonist's best friend dies" is a common trope in war stories, yes.  But it's not the only way to create drama.  It's the instant ramen of drama: cheap, easy, and when it's all you eat you get sick of it fast.  Creating tragedy and tension WITHOUT killing off the squad would show off incredible writing skill.

Tropes are not bad.
It's a common trope because it's true to life and it works.

You can call it cheap and easy all you want - it's not really.

Tropes are not bad, but cliche's are. In every freaking war story I watch the best friend always dies, usually in some sort of sacrifice or in a last minute saftey crunch. Not much variation.

The difference between a trope and a cliche is how it is handled in the writing.

Actually now that I think about it, a good example of avoiding a character death and still making it a sad tragedy would be in the game Nier. *as always spoilers ahead*

In the game, about halfway though, a big and vicious monster is attacking your home village. All of your attacks seem to do nothing to the creature, and it came pretty close to ending your quest to save your daughter via vicious murder. However in a moment of self sacrifice, the swordsmen Kaine traps the creature into the basement of the library, and yells at your blind companion to turn her into stone to keep the creature trapped and saving the village.

It was the only way, and kaine became her own monument, every time you enter the library *which you do for main story quests* you would see kaine standing there petrified, the guardian. It was sad, she was close to both you and the blind boy, and it looked like you wouldn't be able to save her, to top that off it was just one depressing moment among many. You would be able to save her later, after even more depressing stuff of course, but it did not lessen the gravity of the situation at all.

Nier is a depressing game. The world is post apocolyptic, their is a plague spreading, monsters grow in number as the story progresses... and you know what? Not a single companion died in most of the endings. It managed to have a happy ending, despite all the tragedy spread around.

Squadmates do not need to die for their to be sacrifice and drama.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 14 octobre 2011 - 10:26 .

[Sgt Stryker]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...
"The protagonist's best friend dies" is a common trope in war stories, yes.  But it's not the only way to create drama.  It's the instant ramen of drama: cheap, easy, and when it's all you eat you get sick of it fast.  Creating tragedy and tension WITHOUT killing off the squad would show off incredible writing skill.

Tropes are not bad.
It's a common trope because it's true to life and it works.

You can call it cheap and easy all you want - it's not really.

Clarification: Tropes are not bad provided they are used correctly. It remains to be seen if this will hold true in ME3.

On another note, regarding Patrick Weekes' blog: what exactly was wrong with it?

Modifié par Sgt Stryker, 14 octobre 2011 - 10:26 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
It's the first or second thing up there when you Google his name.

Erhhmm which blog is it exactly? He has alot of them on the site.

[Eyerock]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Would Return of the Jedi be better if Vader didn't die at the end?

Would Empire Strikes Back be better if Leia succeeded in rescuing Han Solo? Would it have been better if Luke had been the clear winner in his duel with Vader?

Would Return of the Jedi be better if Han Solo didn't get Leia at the end? Does the whole party with the ewoks, where almost every main character is alive and having a great time together, make it a mushy happy go-lucky cop-out ending?

Most every successful story-driven narrative knows when to emotionally "reward the" consumer. Can you imagine Return of the Jedi where Luke dies with Vader or that Lando had to suicide bomb the shield generators.
Even classical, shakespearian tragedies who always end horribly for everyone have moments of immense humour and happiness. Why? Because being constantly bombarded with tragedy is depressing.

[AdmiralCheez]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Erhm, no. There wasn't a large naive majorty against Garrus being an LI.

You just don't want to admit that you're a fantard too, do ya?

We're all fantards here.

But you do act like you don't know that.

I'm arguing for a small point of comfort in an otherwise miserable sh*tstorm of grimdark so the damn thing's not unbearable.