4309 réponses à ce sujet

[Hathur]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
No more bromance, no point in continuing, because it's what makes the game enjoyable for me.

While I can certainly agree with this to a large degree, I think there is something to be said for the solemn tale of a heroine / hero who has to fight insurmountable odds, ever more alone as her allies fall by the wayside. It speaks to a grim, determined tale of that person's struggle to save everything she believes in or holds dear and is especially puctuated by the very fact her loved ones and friends paid the ultimate price for her to get there.

That said, I'm personally for being at least able to save all my companions (so long as it is difficult to do)... but I definitely can appreciate the alternate side of a tale that ends quite differently when that doesn't happen. It speaks, I think, a bit more strongly of the heroine since they had to endure so much more and had to so in perhaps greater solitude.

Modifié par Hathur, 14 octobre 2011 - 10:45 .

[Nashiktal]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...
"The protagonist's best friend dies" is a common trope in war stories, yes.  But it's not the only way to create drama.  It's the instant ramen of drama: cheap, easy, and when it's all you eat you get sick of it fast.  Creating tragedy and tension WITHOUT killing off the squad would show off incredible writing skill.

Tropes are not bad.
It's a common trope because it's true to life and it works.

You can call it cheap and easy all you want - it's not really.

Tropes are not bad, but cliche's are. In every freaking war story I watch the best friend always dies, usually in some sort of sacrifice or in a last minute saftey crunch. Not much variation.

And do you know why it's that way?
Because people in combat squads become friends fast. And people in combat squads die.

TruthInTelevision.

There isn't a single combat unit in all of history that DIDN'T suffer losses (against foes far less dangerous than the reapers)

You might as well calling equipment wtihout mantainance breaking down a cliche.

Squadmates do not need to die for their to be sacrifice and drama.

No, but they need to die to properly portray war and the gravity of the situation.
Drama can be created in other ways, but you are usually talking about another kind of drama.

Go play Nier, and be enlightened.

[AdmiralCheez]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

And there is a reason for that.

Bah.  Rules are for schmucks.  We need more bold defiance of the standard literature doctrine in our entertainment.  Even if it turns out to be sh*tty, it makes people re-evaluate why we HAVE to do certain things certain ways.

[DiebytheSword]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

They've got Patrick Weekes.  Anything is possible.

I was going to say "Too bad he isn't in charge, then.", but having just read a disgusting article over at his blog, I might just go with the Paragon option at the end of Mordin's mission now, each and every time.

What blog? do you have a link?

It's the first or second thing up there when you Google his name.

A shame, I can't view that material at work.  I will have to look later, thank you for the information.

Modifié par DiebytheSword, 14 octobre 2011 - 10:46 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Hathur wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...
No more bromance, no point in continuing, because it's what makes the game enjoyable for me.

While I can certainly agree with this to a large degree, I think there is something to be said for the solemn tale of a heroine / hero who has to fight insurmountable odds, ever more alone as her allies fall by the wayside. It speaks to a grim, determined tale of that person's struggle to save everything she believes in or holds dear and is especially puctuated by the very fact her loved ones and friends paid the ultimate price for her to get there.

That said, I'm personally for being at least able to save all my companions (so long as it is difficult to do)... but I definitely can appreciate the alternate side of a tale that ends quite differently when that doesn't happen. It speaks, I think, a bit more strongly of the heroine since they had to endure so much more and in solitude.

Yes. But such a story will be unachievable with a "Everyone lives ending". I want my happy ending with Shepard's LI at his side. But there must be a cost to it, and not just random guy #33.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Nashiktal wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

They've got Patrick Weekes.  Anything is possible.

I was going to say "Too bad he isn't in charge, then.", but having just read a disgusting article over at his blog, I revised my opinion.

I think I might just go with the Paragon option at the end of Mordin's mission from now on, each and every time.

Wait, so patrick not wanting women to be criminalized over miscarriages is disgusting, and somehow has bearing on how he writes for the ME series?

I am confused.

I'm sure it won't come to that extreme, but the amendment in itself is a good thing.

And yes, it has bearing on the related story arc he has written.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 14 octobre 2011 - 10:55 .

[Eyerock]

[quote]
Squadmates do not need to die for their to be sacrifice and drama.
[/quote]

No, but they need to die to properly portray war and the gravity of the situation.
Drama can be created in other ways, but you are usually talking about another kind of drama.

[/quote]


If seeing our planet be oblitirated by giant, mechanical headlice doesn't  make us understand the gravity of the situation we are IDIOTS. 

I agree that a good war story should have its losses, but the "kill your friend" card can only be used so many times. As you suggest, drama can be created in other ways. I would suggest that instead of just killing all these great characters we've come to love, use them to creat drama. Maybe garrus is tired of just being the "bro" and starts questioning Shepard's loyalty. 

Conflict is the true source to drama my friend!

[Athayniel]

Lizardviking wrote...

Yes. But such a story will be unachievable with a "Everyone lives ending". I want my happy ending with Shepard's LI at his side. But there must be a cost to it, and not just random guy #33.

And none of us wish to deny it to you. We want you to get your preferred ending, in such a manner as you find is woerhty of achieving it with a Shepard you are content to say you have played as well as you could. We just also want the chance to receive our ending as well.

[Kaiser Shepard]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

And there is a reason for that.

Bah.  Rules are for schmucks.  We need more bold defiance of the standard literature doctrine in our entertainment.  Even if it turns out to be sh*tty, it makes people re-evaluate why we HAVE to do certain things certain ways.

We know why we normally do this thing this way.

Sounds like you're the type that needs to make a mistake herself before being seeing the flawed logic that led to it, even if one already having made a similar mistake in the past and warns you of it.

[AdmiralCheez]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

I'm sure it won't come to that extreme, but the amendment in itself is a good thing.

Oh sh*t.  Real life political disagreement.

Kaiser, I'm going to have to reserve the fat-touching until I come to grips with this massive rift in our respective idealogies.  I side with Weekes, here.

[nitefyre410]

I am absolutely, tired of people giving characters the idiot ball just to kill them off  because they are too damn lazy to come with a plot line that makes sense enough to KILL said character and then have audacity to feed this too me as DRAMA.   Admiral and many of us are so absoluty sick  of it because just  like Rape  ,  Death should not be used for sake of creating drama.... OH and guess what happens  during war as well that right aformentioned  R word.  So for the sake of "realism" sense ME 3 is supposed to War story lets have that happen in detail as well just to drive home of the home f-up things are going to get.    Cause we all know that once Earth gets hit and things start falling apart is going to be a every man for  his or herself  apoloclypse as every goes to ****.  


What is even more madding is that people are advocating bad writing to aviod bad writing not taking in any consideration that  Mass Effect from  is insception was a choose your own out come adventure.  

Modifié par nitefyre410, 14 octobre 2011 - 10:56 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

We know why we normally do this thing this way.

I think we can pull it off backwards.

Sounds like you're the type that needs to make a mistake herself before being seeing the flawed logic that led to it, even if one already having made a similar mistake in the past and warns you of it.

Nah, I'm just the type that likes abstract art and other weird movements.

[Almostfaceman]

Athayniel wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Yes. But such a story will be unachievable with a "Everyone lives ending". I want my happy ending with Shepard's LI at his side. But there must be a cost to it, and not just random guy #33.

And none of us wish to deny it to you. We want you to get your preferred ending, in such a manner as you find is woerhty of achieving it with a Shepard you are content to say you have played as well as you could. We just also want the chance to receive our ending as well.

This pretty much sums up the whole thing. So some are pro-choice and some are not. 

Me, I'm pro-choice. 

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Athayniel wrote...
And none of us wish to deny it to you. We want you to get your preferred ending, in such a manner as you find is woerhty of achieving it with a Shepard you are content to say you have played as well as you could. We just also want the chance to receive our ending as well.

No you are not.

[Nashiktal]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

They've got Patrick Weekes.  Anything is possible.

I was going to say "Too bad he isn't in charge, then.", but having just read a disgusting article over at his blog, I revised my opinion.

I think I might just go with the Paragon option at the end of Mordin's mission from now on, each and every time.

Wait, so patrick not wanting women to be criminalized over miscarriages is disgusting, and somehow has bearing on how he writes for the ME series?

I am confused.

I'm sure it won't come to that extreme, but the amendment in itself is a good thing.

Look i'm not going to go into the amendment thing, but that still doesn't explain what that has to do with weekes as a writer.

I don't agree with Orson scott card's political views, but that doesn't hurt his skill as a writer.

[Athayniel]

Lizardviking wrote...

Athayniel wrote...
And none of us wish to deny it to you. We want you to get your preferred ending, in such a manner as you find is woerhty of achieving it with a Shepard you are content to say you have played as well as you could. We just also want the chance to receive our ending as well.

No you are not.

Well, insofar as we do not wish to indulge your desire to deprive us of our ending, that is the case. We still want you to get a story with sacrifice and death and all that stuff. We'd just like for that stuff not to be forced on us as well.

[AdmiralCheez]

Lizardviking wrote...

No you are not.

No really.  I seriously want as many people as possible to enjoy ME3 to its fullest.  If each side gives a little, we can make it work.

[Kaiser Shepard]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

I'm sure it won't come to that extreme, but the amendment in itself is a good thing.

Oh sh*t.  Real life political disagreement.

Kaiser, I'm going to have to reserve the fat-touching until I come to grips with this massive rift in our respective idealogies.  I side with Weekes, here.

You act like this is something new, whereas you have been in favor of the easy third way out for as long as I can remember, with me being of the opposite believe. In the end, it all comes down to the same, no matter the topic being discussed.

Almostfaceman wrote...

Athayniel wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Yes. But such a story will be unachievable with a "Everyone lives ending". I want my happy ending with Shepard's LI at his side. But there must be a cost to it, and not just random guy #33.

And none of us wish to deny it to you. We want you to get your preferred ending, in such a manner as you find is woerhty of achieving it with a Shepard you are content to say you have played as well as you could. We just also want the chance to receive our ending as well.

This pretty much sums up the whole thing. So some are pro-choice and some are not. 

Me, I'm pro-choice. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/cool.png[/smilie]

Yet, that leaves us with a "hard won victory" that's only attainable if one makes intentional mistake after intentional mistake, which doesn't exactly make the game any fun.

[Sgt Stryker]

So meta-gaming counts as making intentional mistakes now?

[onelifecrisis]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

So meta-gaming counts as making intentional mistakes now?

No. But making intentional mistakes counts as meta-gaming.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

I'm sure it won't come to that extreme, but the amendment in itself is a good thing.

Oh sh*t.  Real life political disagreement.

Kaiser, I'm going to have to reserve the fat-touching until I come to grips with this massive rift in our respective idealogies.  I side with Weekes, here.

You act like this is something new, whereas you have been in favor of the easy third way out for as long as I can remember, with me being of the opposite believe. In the end, it all comes down to the same, no matter the topic being discussed.

Guys. Can we stop with the politics please? Not that I find it uninteresting, it just that AFAIK politics is a ****** easy way to get a thread locked. Something I would hate to happen with this one.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 14 octobre 2011 - 11:08 .

[Sgt Stryker]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

So meta-gaming counts as making intentional mistakes now?

No. But making intentional mistakes counts as meta-gaming.

In that case, choices need to be presented in such a way that the "wrong" choices do not seem like wrong choices when you first see them. For example, choosing Samara (centuries of combat experience - can't get much better than that) to lead the second fireteam, or choosing Thane to infiltrate the vents (hey, he was pretty good at sneaking around in the Dantius towers). Both of these are incorrect choices, but the player does not have a priori knowledge of that, unless he already played the game or read a walkthrough.

Of course, there are still obvious wrong choices, like choosing Jacob for the vents, or putting Jack in any leadership position, and the player should be punished accordingly for making such a decision.

Modifié par Sgt Stryker, 14 octobre 2011 - 11:14 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

You act like this is something new, whereas you have been in favor of the easy third way out for as long as I can remember, with me being of the opposite believe. In the end, it all comes down to the same, no matter the topic being discussed.

Easy way out?  No, just happy bits mixed in with the sad.  There's nothing easy about preventing a galactic extinction.  I think Shep deserves to have her friends by her side, to have someone to stand with her when it's all over, to help make an emptier galaxy more bearable.

I mean, let's face it, the Reapers are hitting the homeworlds first, so the infrastructure is GONE.  Any semblance of safety, of order, GONE.  All the warnings, the efforts to stop them, pointless.  And even when we win, our civilizations will be in ruin, our greatest cities reduced to rubble, our fleets torn to pieces...

Friends may be the only comfort Shep's got left.

[onelifecrisis]

[quote]Sgt Stryker wrote...

[quote]onelifecrisis wrote...

[quote]Sgt Stryker wrote...

So meta-gaming counts as making intentional mistakes now?[/quote]

No. But making intentional mistakes counts as meta-gaming.

[/quote]

In that case, choices need to be presented in such a way that the "wrong" choices do not seem like wrong choices when you first see them.[/quote]

I couldn't agree more.[/quote]

[AdmiralCheez]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

In that case, choices need to be presented in such a way that the "wrong" choices do not seem like wrong choices when you first see them.

I couldn't agree more.

And that's the solution.