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[Knight of Dane]

Oh look, another thread that will turn into a Anders discussion.

Anders doesn't change, but his personality merges with Justice, i see Janders as a new person not Justice nor Awakening Anders. Anders always had the hate for the circle and Templars in him, justice just herdened that.
Merrill was in Origins for 20 minutes and didn't have a personality what so ever, no change needed, she still had to be invented.
Cullen isn't changed.

[Heidenreich]

... You do realize that Anders is exactly the same Anders as Awakening Anders right? The same snark, the same anti-templar mentality, the same "say inappropriate ****" streak. He's the same man. He just has.. more, because he has Justice in his head doing..justice-ee things.

Go re-play awakening and actually listen to the banters. He even makes a joke about Iconoclasm. All the cards are there. It just takes Justice to make the full deck.

In fact the only thing different about him is the voice over -- and that was litterally because Greg Ellis was unavailable. He was shooting a movie and wasn't able to dedicate the time needed for the part. So they asked Adam Howden to step in.. and frankly he did a marvious job.

As for Merrill, she was barely a character. She may very well be super confident when in the confines of her own Clan.. but outside Kirkwall she's lost, and so she seems very naive and childlike. Also, again new voice actor to fit the Dalish accent better. Personally I love welish elves. Its adorable, and Merrill's VA is amazing.

As for Cullen's change... what?  I don't see that at all. He's still shy as hell about women, still adores Amell if that's who your warden was.. still very much anti-DEMON and for the most part pretty anti-magic. Still tough as nails when he needs to be, and still a soft heart when he needs to be.




Rablerablerable<_<

Modifié par Heidenreich, 07 octobre 2011 - 01:24 .

[TastesLikeTNT]

DeadlyHaven wrote...

I never was insulting Anders, and I see the purpose of his personality Change. This isn't a forum about me insulting any character. If I wanted to insult Anders, I would make a group called "F*ck Anders in DA2", but I have not.
I'm aware Merrill had very little personality, but her DA2 personality was certainly different from what we saw in Origins.
Cullen still loves Amell Warden? When did that happen, because I certainly don't recall. He's way more strict on mages than he was in DA:O. Before the Broken Circle quest he was a lovestruck Templar who got nervous whenever he saw Amell. After Broken Circle he dissed her. When I heard his comment to her after I said "Aren't you sorry you said that" I was just like "Oh snap, he did not just go there. I'm not insulting any characters. I'm asking if anyone else noticed a personality change.

Cullen seems to remember her fondly.

Any personality change was made for the sake of the story. Honestly, I don't think they would be very noticeable if the voice actors had been the same.

[Gervaise]

I think they chose Anders because he was in a party with Justice and so there was a reason why he might be willing to link up with him. I didn't like what they did with him but I do agree all the potential for Anders to become what he did was there in Awakening, Justice just gave him a harder edge, focus and drive - plus if you read his short story, it would seem also an initial invulnerability that allowed him to escape the cluches of the Grey Wardens. I think the writers also realised that you might not have so much sympathy for a new character that was really an abomination.

Merrill is a different story though. There was really no reason why she had to be someone they had introduced in Origins. In fact there was no reason it had to be the same clan as in Origins. It would have made a lot more sense if it wasn't, although may be their association with Flemeth was because she also helped them escape. Given how their accents changed, it would have made more sense if this was because they were a different clan with a different dialect from those in Ferelden. The link was the mirror but that could have been passed on or they could have simply used a different artifact that wouldn't work, so the elf mage had resorted to blood magic. So it wasn't just Merrill who changed but the entire clan and to be honest I just ignored the references to Origin characters and looked upon them as something new.

[TobiTobsen]

Heidenreich wrote...

... You do realize that Anders is exactly the same Anders as Awakening Anders right? The same snark, the same anti-templar mentality, the same "say inappropriate ****" streak. He's the same man. He just has.. more, because he has Justice in his head doing..justice-ee things.

Go re-play awakening and actually listen to the banters. He even makes a joke about Iconoclasm. All the cards are there. It just takes Justice to make the full deck.

In fact the only thing different about him is the voice over -- and that was litterally because Greg Ellis was unavailable. He was shooting a movie and wasn't able to dedicate the time needed for the part. So they asked Adam Howden to step in.. and frankly he did a marvious job.

Word!

[Heidenreich]

DeadlyHaven wrote...

Perhaps not. I never had that conversation situ Cullen before, he still changes, regardless of whether or not he still has feeling for F!Amell. I'm also still pissed about what he said to my Amell Warden, lol.

What? Cullen doesn't change. He was IMPRISONED BY AN INSANE ABOMINATION. Why in the void would he be nice to your Amell Warden at the exact moment he's still imprisoned and being tortured??

Then later, after he's gone to Kirkwall, he's rationally anti Magic/mage. Because he was tortured by them, and watched all his friends die!

That's not "change", that's Character Development.

I suppose Anders didn't have the balls to blow up the chantry. He used to say to Justice Thst he'd rather stand by and not get killed. I just miss his personality. I agree the changes would have been less noticeable with the same voice actors. Though other aspects of Anders change. In Awakening he seemed all for mages having relationships, whereas in DA2 he think it can't be done.

What in sam's third hell are you going on about? Anders is all about  mages having relationships... about mages having lives. He pushes Hawke away because he doesn't belive he should have that... because he's a freeking abomination. He's scared of what he might do to someone.

Because, you know... abomination.

He also only really reacts that way to Female Hawke. He's amazingly less "No, I'll hurt you!" to a Male Hawke.

He's not any different of a person. Again, Character Development. The personality is still there, but outside infuences have changed how he reacts to the world slightly

Don't see how Merrill's change affects much of the story, or how Marathari dying was necessary.

Someone really should define Character Development to you.

Merrill wasn't a fully fleshed character in Origins. They gave her a new voice and put her in a setting she's not formillar with. Its not a change.

Marathari dieing only shows everyone just how much BADNESS Merrill's blood magic choice really is.

I would've said Isabela being a sl*t was a change, but then I heard about the scene on her boat in Origins. I find Isabela's physical changes rather odd though. First she was white with red hair and then over the course of a year her hair turns black and her skin becomes a lot darker.

 Isabela was -not- white in Origins. Its the lighting in the building. Take her body-model out of the Pearl and she's dark skinned w/ dark hair. It's not black in DA2 Either, its Brownish Auburn.


*rubs temples.*<_<

Modifié par Heidenreich, 07 octobre 2011 - 05:27 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Now Merril, I will argue that her personality DID change. As a Dalish Warden, the only think she seemed to have in common with the girl I knew was the name, and that she was a mage.

Everyone else is coherent character development, but Merril is all stammery and uncertain from the very start here, and never shows any of her adventurous competence. Now, I haven't romanced her so I might be missing some things that may show up there, but Merril seems quite difference and I don't think the differences are explained as well as they might be. Everyone else I have a good narrative for, though.

[Heidenreich]

Merrill is super easy to explain.

Within her clan, she's strong and no-nonsense. She knows the people she's dealing with, is comfortable with them, and knows that as the first, she's better then them, even if its only on a superficial level.

Outside of that setting, she's shy, stammers, and is on unsure footing. She, potentially, has ever only met one human prior to Hawke. She's never been in a big city. She's never been outside of her Clan with the exception of when they all get together, and she was a toddler the last time that happened.

You can see the old Merrill when she's around her clan, at least in part. She puts her head high when she's being insulted by her clan-mates, She puts her foot down around Marathari.

With Hawke she's got a clean slate, where with her Clan she's already established into a person, one who isn't particularly well liked -- which is evident by how the DA:O dailish elves seem react to her Air-of-superiority.

;p

[Maria Caliban]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Oh look, another thread that will turn into a Anders discussion.

Do you think we can turn this into a Verric discussion?

In DA:O, Verric didn't exist but in DA2, he does! And he has massive chest hair now where he didn't before.

What gives BioWare?

[Mr.House]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Oh look, another thread that will turn into a Anders discussion.

Do you think we can turn this into a Verric discussion?

In DA:O, Verric didn't exist but in DA2, he does! And he has massive chest hair now where he didn't before.

What gives BioWare?

What about Isabela?

[Zjarcal]

Heidenreich wrote...

Merrill is super easy to explain.

Within her clan, she's strong and no-nonsense. She knows the people she's dealing with, is comfortable with them, and knows that as the first, she's better then them, even if its only on a superficial level.

Outside of that setting, she's shy, stammers, and is on unsure footing. She, potentially, has ever only met one human prior to Hawke. She's never been in a big city. She's never been outside of her Clan with the exception of when they all get together, and she was a toddler the last time that happened.

You can see the old Merrill when she's around her clan, at least in part. She puts her head high when she's being insulted by her clan-mates, She puts her foot down around Marathari.

With Hawke she's got a clean slate, where with her Clan she's already established into a person, one who isn't particularly well liked -- which is evident by how the DA:O dailish elves seem react to her Air-of-superiority.

;p

Took the words out of my mouth.

Maria Caliban wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Oh look, another thread that will turn into a Anders discussion.

Do you think we can turn this into a Verric discussion? 

In DA:O, Verric didn't exist but in DA2, he does! And he has massive chest hair now where he didn't before. 

What gives BioWare?

Verric was disguising as Oghron in DAO.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 07 octobre 2011 - 07:01 .

[Maria Caliban]

Mr.House wrote...

What about Isabela?

In Dragon Age: Origins, Isabela was a lusty neer-do-well who was excellent with the blade. In Dragon Age 2, instead of taking the Tome of Kuslan and running, she returned to help Hawke.

What gives BioWare? DA:O Isabela would have left Kirkwall and never turned back. That seems like a change in personality to me, and I think we call all agree that change is bad and NPCs should remain utterly static when it comes to their personality and beliefs.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 07 octobre 2011 - 07:03 .

[Mr.House]

Also OP, Merrill never changed. Compare Merrill when she is in Kirkwall and talking to Hawke to how she talks to the crafter and teh Keeper in DA2. When she talks to her people she acts just like in DAO. Reason is she does not know humans that well and is dumped into a different culture. It makes sense she is like how she is. It's not a retcon.

Modifié par Mr.House, 07 octobre 2011 - 07:07 .

[Wulfram]

DA2 Merrill is still very much DA2 Merrill after 6 years of hanging out with Hawke and co, so I don't really buy the idea that it's all down to her not being used to humans and the big city.

And I can't see even a strong and no-nonsense DA2 Merrill in Origins Merrill. For example, DA2 Merrill wouldn't say that she can't imagine Tamlen is still alive with the Darkspawn about - she'd be the one insisting against the evidence that he can still be saved.

[Mr.House]

Wulfram wrote...

DA2 Merrill is still very much DA2 Merrill after 6 years of hanging out with Hawke and co, so I don't really buy the idea that it's all down to her not being used to humans and the big city.

And I can't see even a strong and no-nonsense DA2 Merrill in Origins Merrill. For example, DA2 Merrill wouldn't say that she can't imagine Tamlen is still alive with the Darkspawn about - she'd be the one insisting against the evidence that he can still be saved.

Not after so long, more so when she witnessed a clan mate die or that the only way for her/him to lvie was to become a GW.

[DarkDragon777]

Uh, I don't think you can judge anyone's personality from a 5 minute cameo. I can understand you being upset about Anders, but not Isabela or Merrill.

[Wulfram]

Mr.House wrote...

Not after so long, more so when she witnessed a clan mate die or that the only way for her/him to lvie was to become a GW.

This is the same person who says "You can survive without a hand. This doesn't mean anyone's dead." when you find the bag of bones in The First Sacrifice.

Modifié par Wulfram, 07 octobre 2011 - 07:23 .

[Mr.House]

Wulfram wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Not after so long, more so when she witnessed a clan mate die or that the only way for her/him to lvie was to become a GW.

This is the same person who says "You can survive without a hand. This doesn't mean anyone's dead." when you find the bag of bones in The First Sacrifice.

Which is in act 1, and you can survive without a hand.

Modifié par Mr.House, 07 octobre 2011 - 07:25 .

[AtreiyaN7]

My opinion about characters in general is that every character can/should be allowed to grow and change - like actual people do. If I want friends that never change, I already have them: plushies. They don't talk back, sass me, or do things that I don't want them to do like pooping on the carpet. Oh, and they love me forever & ever.

Back to being serious: after several years and major life experiences, I wouldn't expect each character in the DA universe to be exactly the same as they were - just like DA2 Leliana is different from how she was in DA:O. Some of the other characters in cameos retained their original personalities and were very much the same, such as King Alistair being pretty similar in to what his former Warden self in DA:O. Ditto on Zevran being pretty much the same. As for the others? Yeah, so? I don't see what's wrong with Merrill (who, as pointed out, didn't exactly have a lengthy first appearance).being different or Anders changing pretty radically post-merge.

[Wulfram]

Alistair being all mage freedomy is a bit of a change. A reasonable piece of character development, but still a change.